Bible Study Paul's Thorn

[th1b.taylor]

I wish I could make an intelligent comment on this looking on sin , but here is where I usually go .

Acts 17:30

This verse ( and surrounding text) lets you know there is a difference in OT / NT as God is dealing with people and sin. What God did seems to be explained, and men have a tough time dealing with the resurrection / belief.

eddif

Remembering to examine context and backing up to verse 26 or even further back we learn that this passage is speaking to the matter of idols made with men's hands. So I don't make the connection your trying to express.

 

[Kathi]

Ok Bill I don't agree with you here.



Why do you suggest only Satan had access to Yahweh ?

Ok this is interesting. If we take Hab 1:13 to mean Yahweh can't actually view ( look on ) iniquity then that must imply He can't see what goes on down here atm. Is this your position ?

I have another suggestion.

Hab 1:12-13 KJV Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction. (13) Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?

This passage is asking rhetorically if Yahweh will look upon evil doers and not act ( hold thy tongue ). He won't of course. So the passage means Yahweh will look at the evil done and punish the evil doers. Habakkuk asks plenty of "doubting" questions because he sees what we see often; evil doers apparently going unpunished when we desire immediate judgement.

I'm not sure how Psalms 34:16 can imply Yahweh can't look at evil when it seems to imply the opposite. Do you have any other scriptures to support your premise ? Also can you give me your definition of "high places" in Ephesians 6:12.

Eph 6:12 KJV For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.[/QUOTE]
Who else do you think has access to heaven?

 

[eddif]

Remembering to examine context and backing up to verse 26 or even further back we learn that this passage is speaking to the matter of idols made with men's hands. So I don't make the connection your trying to express.

The surrounding text about Israel and idols in the OT is what I was talking of (surrounding text). After the coming o f Jesus and Holy Spirit verse 30 implies no winking but requires repentance.

John set up repentance, Jesus died for our sins, the Holy Spirit empowers the difference in the way we are dealt with. IMHO

eddif

 

[Deborah13]

I gave those two scriptures to indicate God does not allow anything evil to dwell in His heaven as yes, God does see the evil in others here on earth as God judges the heart.

High places here to me means that of Satan's spiritual realm as Satan being a created spirit just as all angels are, but Satan's kingdom being a lesser magnitude than Gods as Satan's kingdom is this world as he walks through it going to and fro.

This how I interpret it, too. Also satan influencing people in powerful positions in the world as he tries with do with all men.

 

[agua.]

Who else do you think has access to heaven?

Firstly like JLB suggested earlier it may not be Heaven where satan presented himself in Job. I suggest since satan isn't omnipresent and uses minions to gather information etc that they would also present themslves when accusing. I'm not sure people get huffy about satans minions getting an audience with Yahweh when the chief himself gets in. In Job we see Satan presenting amid the Sons of God which may describe all angels not only "good" ones.

Notice when satan pursued Israel and Jesus he "cast" 1/3 of the Angels ( devils ) to Earth not Yahweh. This implies it was an action instigated by Satan. imo

Rev 12:4 KJV And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Here we see Yahweh casting Satan down and that before this he was the accusor of the Brethren. Now if your eschatology is that this passage refers to the future tribulation period it means he still has access.

Rev 12:10 KJV And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

 

[eddif]

It is almost like this;
Matthew 6:10

1. The kingdom of God (wherever it is)
A. The throne of God
B. The court of God
C. The multitude of angels (including the angels that fell)
( the area)
2. The kingdom of Eden on Earth
A. God ( plural Us) creating creation
B. God talking with Adam and Eve
C. The locking of Eden
a. Serpent lower station ( satan cast down) ( like satan in other heaven)
b. Angel with sword guarded Eden entrance
c. Outer court where Adam and Eve went (outside Eden)

3. The tabernacle symbol
A. Holy of Holies
B. Holy place where priests were
C. Outer court

4. Modern New Testament man
A. God in us from new birth
B. New mind of Christ ( vain imaginations cast down)
C. Flesh (that will be totally transformed at resurrection)

Please cut me a little slack. I think this might be able to be expanded / improved.

We should be able to see the kingdom done on earth as it is in heaven.

Symbolism ( not all spiritual reality)

eddif

 

[eddif]

Feel free to put roman numerals where they belong or present your thought .

The thorn might have been
In heaven
In agriculture
In the Gentiles against God's people
In the thorn crown of Jesus
In Paul's flesh

Did the thorn move over time?

eddif

 

[agua.]

In the Jews against God's people.
In the Gentiles against the Jews.

 

[eddif]

In the Jews against God's people.
In the Gentiles against the Jews.

Thorns were a curse.

Revelation 22:7-12
This passage is about the accuser of the Brethren, and the removal of angels from heaven.

Any time saints are accused it is bad. The saints can be Jews, Gentiles, male, female, bond, free, etc .
Which kind of brings up Elihu. Actually Elihu accused Job of things God did not accuse Job of. God does not even acknowledge Eliju. Elihu used to be on my good list, but right now I want to actually see if his doctrine agrees with Job. God says Job spoke the truth. More study that needs to be done.

eddif

 

[Kathi]

Does God really want us to know what the thorn was?Don't you think He would have told us in the Bible if He wanted us to know?

 

[eddif]

Does God really want us to know what the thorn was?Don't you think He would have told us in the Bible if He wanted us to know?

I agree too much knowledge just puffs up ( probably carnal type knowledge mostly).
Romans 1:19-20
Says that the things of God are seen through what he has created. A study of briar patches is good. It really seems the path of least resistance is to go deeper into the briar patch, but it is best to extract yourself early on. Thorns in Mississippi are worse than briars.

A Roman sword is about the worst thorn in the side of Jesus. The whip piercing the kidneys of Jesus is major bad. As we suffer thorns we appreciate His suffering for our sins. His creation teaches us about Himself and His love for us. Every time I see honey locust thorns I think of Jesus suffering for my sins. The study of thorns leads us to Jesus .

eddif

 

[Deborah13]

Thorns were a curse.

Revelation 22:7-12
This passage is about the accuser of the Brethren, and the removal of angels from heaven.

Any time saints are accused it is bad. The saints can be Jews, Gentiles, male, female, bond, free, etc .
Which kind of brings up Elihu. Actually Elihu accused Job of things God did not accuse Job of. God does not even acknowledge Eliju. Elihu used to be on my good list, but right now I want to actually see if his doctrine agrees with Job. God says Job spoke the truth. More study that needs to be done.

eddif

I think Elihu was OK with God because Job didn't have to make a sacrifice for Elihu as he did the other three friends.
I need to do more study too, but I right now I don't think Elihu was saying the Job had sinned as Job's friends had said he did. I think Elihu was saying that Job was wrong to think that God would punish a righteous man, in other words it wasn't God that was doing these horrible things to him and Job thought that it was.
After God had His say, Job did repent (changed his mind) about something. I think Job thought his righteous works, all his doings would save him, rather than God's mercy and grace.
I see man's thinking before the cross and after the cross.

Job had asked for a mediator was Elihu that type, I'm not sure yet.

 

[agua.]

I think Elihu was OK with God because Job didn't have to make a sacrifice for Elihu as he did the other three friends.
I need to do more study too, but I right now I don't think Elihu was saying the Job had sinned as Job's friends had said he did. I think Elihu was saying that Job was wrong to think that God would punish a righteous man, in other words it wasn't God that was doing these horrible things to him and Job thought that it was.
After God had His say, Job did repent (changed his mind) about something. I think Job thought his righteous works, all his doings would save him, rather than God's mercy and grace.

Job had asked for a mediator was Elihu that type, I'm not sure yet.

I agree.

I see man's thinking before the cross and after the cross.

What do you mean here ?

 

[eddif]

Job 4: 6-7
Eliphaz is actually the one who infers Job depends on his ways for righteousness.

IMHO Job sees his grief, calamity and his words are swallowed up (kind of like - oh wretched man that I am). God said Job spoke the truth and his friends were wrong.

While I see some things in Job, I feel like a veil is over my understanding at times. The end chapters ( with Job is right and the friends are wrong) sends me back to read again and again, pray, seek his face, etc.

eddif