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Hi Smaller

You posted (#379) two passages: Lk.10:19 and Rom.16:20 which I too understand are symbolical in nature. Yet you continue to shy away from Mark 16 which is and has been the only passage I allude to on this thread. I maintain those signs were of the literal nature, in confirming the word they preached, which "signs" we find them performing in a physical way. The only possible excption being the poison. Ido not understrand, keeping it in context, how those "signs" of Mk.16 can be other than actual, seeable, physical. Deal with Mark 16.
 
Consider the time of the year and how the Jewish Feasts were celebrated. The feast of the Passover was associated, not only with the time of Egyptian Captivity but also associated with a feast of First Fruits for the first (Spring) Harvest. The harvest during the Passover season was the spring harvest of less hardy crops, such as barley. There were three "harvest" related feasts.

From the time of the Passover Feast (what we know understand as the Resurrection of Jesus) there were 7 weeks and one day counted (total of 50 days) until the Shavuot.

We are told that the Risen Christ ministered to his disciples for 40 days during this period of time, and that it culminated with the command that they should "Tarry in Jerusalem". It is at this time in the desert when Moses receives God's Commandments (Torah)...for it is stated that the time is the third month. The first month being when the Passover occurs. Counting forward from First Fruits, seven Sabbaths, brings us into the third month.

Pentecost is the Greek term for Shavuot and is also known as the "Feast of Weeks" in that it is seven weeks (plus one day) after First Fruits, that Shavuot is celebrated. Along with Passover and Sukkot, it is one of the pilgrimage Feasts that were celebrated in Jerusalem, when the Temple was still standing and are ordained by God as Feasts that are to be kept forever.

Within the New Testament writings, the Feast of Weeks is known as Pentecost. The term Pentecost is of Greek origin and simply means 50th. The calculation of Shavuot is seven Sabbaths (49 days) plus 1 day, thus equaling 50 days.

Jeremiah 31:31-34 HNV said:
"Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Yisra'el, and with the house of Yehudah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Mitzrayim; which my covenant they broke, although I was a husband to them, says the LORD.

But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Yisra'el after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people: and they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD; for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more."

Ezekiel 36:26-28 HNV said:
"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my ordinances, and do them. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and you shall be my people, and I will be your God."

Imagine what the scene during the time of our Messiah, after His resurrection. He spends forty days with His disciples, teaching them of the things pertaining to the Kingdom of God:

"After his death he showed himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. During a period of forty days they saw him, and he spoke with them about the Kingdom of God. At one of these gatherings, he instructed them not to leave Yerushalayim but to wait for "what the Father promised, which you heard about from me. For Yochanan [John] used to immerse people in water; but in a few days, you will be immersed in the Ruach HaKodesh! [the Holy Spirit]" [Acts 1:3-5]

The Disciples had witnessed what had just happened on the Feast of the Passover, and had seen the Risen Christ who explained and revealed the meaning of many sacred secrets to them. They were now approaching another Feast Day and were told to "Wait" with the promise that they would be immersed, not in water, but in the Holy Spirit!

Imagine the anticipation leading up to Shavuot...another Feast is to come, what will happen next?

The disciples of Jesus were Jewish believers who had seen the Messiah after His death; He brought God's Word alive to them, teaching of the mysteries that were hidden, regarding the Kingdom of Heaven, and then they see Him as He ascends into the clouds. He specifically instructed them to wait for the promise. They understood the symbol, that they were looking toward the time that was pre-shadowed by the giving of the Law to Moses. They did not yet understand that that very law would be written into their hearts, and not upon tablets of stone.

Then the day comes... They are waiting together, about 120 of them, in the upper room and Jesus keeps His words and sends the Promise of the Father! The very Spirit that was with them, showing the meanings of the Scriptures and teaching them was now in them, given to them, giving them power to declare what had been shown. Peter's insight regarding what had happened came from the Holy Spirit. "This is what the Prophet Joel spoke of..."

Chronology of the Events found in Acts:
When the Church first began in 30AD, it was entirely Jewish, and evangelism of the Gentiles was not considered. It took ~20 years for them to accept the Gentiles into the church without requiring them to fully convert to Judaism. I don't want to insist that it was exactly 20 years, because as far as I know the exact time isn't clear. But we can get a clue by calculating the date of the conversion of Paul.

This can be derived from Galatians 2:1 where he says:
Fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.
Paul had already been to Jerusalem, three years after his conversion, an event which is mentioned in Galatians 1:18. He is counting 14 years after his conversion, not 14 years after his previous visit, since his conversion was the event that made his life worthwhile. If the two periods are added together we get 17 years, giving the impossible result that Paul was converted before Yeshua had been executed and risen again.

The question is - which visit to Jerusalem is Paul referring to, from which he counts 14 years back to his conversion? Was it the Jerusalem Council of 50AD, or was it the earlier visit, in 46AD when he went with relief for those stricken by the famine?

The heated letter to the Galatians, about circumcision, might lead us to believe that he was referring to the Jerusalem Council of 50AD, but there is something here that doesn't make sense. In Galatians 2:7-14, Paul speaks disparagingly of Peter because he was still vacillating over the question of circumcision of the Gentiles. This means the Jerusalem Council had not yet taken place, because at that Council everybody was agreed that circumcision of the Gentiles was unnecessary, including Peter. (Acts 15:7-11).

Paul must therefore have been referring to the earlier visit to Jerusalem in 46AD when Peter was still not convinced. Subtracting 14 years from 46AD we get 32AD as the date for the conversion of Paul. This is a very early date, only two years after the church was founded, but it is quite feasible. (Date of Paul's Conversion) Peter's vision and his visit to Cornelius could have been at any time between 35 and 40AD.

Peter's vision was an act of Divine providence, because without it the second generation Believers who began preaching to the Gentiles would have been considered outright heretics. The early Jerusalem Believers never had any thoughts of ministry to the Gentiles, who were totally excluded from the church for at least the first five years until 35AD, and maybe the first ten years until 40AD. After that, the Judaising controversy raged for another 10 or 15 years until it was finally settled in Jerusalem in 50AD.

From the day of Pentecost when the church was founded, it took a total of 20 years for them to welcome the Gentiles without hindrance.

Please see: http://www.annomundi.com/bible/chronology_of_the_early_church.htm
for more information about Chronology.
__________________________________________

It is important to realize that the Book of Acts covers a larger span of time than many Christians today realize. The suggestion that the Holy Spirit stopped after the book was completed or that the Holy Spirit is not relevant for today is based on an idea that the period of time was rather short. Review of the Feast Days, and their significance shows the time frame that we are in - that we (the modern church) is awaiting the final harvest (the Fall Harvest) and the Time of the Latter Rain. Understanding the significance of the feast of Passover and it's relevance to the Resurrection, followed by the Giving of the Law to Moses -- and how that relates to the Gift of the Holy Spirit and how the Law is written on fleshly tablets is vital to understanding the purpose of the Father.

"Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends, if you do whatever I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for the servant doesn't know what his lord does. But I have called you friends, for everything that I heard from my Father, I have made known to you. You didn't choose me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain; that whatever you will ask of the Father in my name, he may give it to you. "I command these things to you, that you may love one another.

... "When the Counselor has come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will testify about me." - [John 15:13-17, 26 HNV]

"But I say that so long as the heir is a child, he is no different from a bondservant, though he is lord of all; but is under guardians and stewards until the day appointed by the father. So we also, when we were children, were held in bondage under the elements of the world. But when the fullness of the time came, God sent out his Son, born to a woman, born under the law, that he might redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

And because you are sons, God sent out the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, "Abba, Father!" So you are no longer a bondservant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Messiah." - [Galatians 4:1-7 HNV]
 
Smaller wrote: "I would only see that you don't see much about enemies or serpents. And even less than location." Such is your opinion sir, and you are welcome to it, but its only opinion. Handle Mark 16.
 
Smaller wrote: "I would only see that you don't see much about enemies or serpents. And even less than location." Such is your opinion sir, and you are welcome to it, but its only opinion. Handle Mark 16.

If your insistence is that the matters are not spiritual in nature what do you expect me to say?

There were an abundance of correlations already provided. If you were interested you'd have already picked up on them.

If not, I'd suggest they don't fit your doctrinal mold and you are more interested in that angle.

s
 
Hi Smaller--
You write: "If your insistence is that the matters are not spiritual in nature whatdo you expect me to say?" Well, first of all, I expect you to handle Mark16, which to date you have not done. In the second place, I do not recall ever saying the "signs" of Mark 16 were not of a spiritual significance. In fact vs. 20 teaches the "signs" were for "confirming the word", certainly "confirming" is of a spiritual nature. In the third place, are you denying that a physical act (such as those "signs" of Mk.16) cannot haved a spiritual result? I take the position that a Divine command requiring a physical act can and often does have a spiritual result.

God bless
 
Smaller wrote: "I would only see that you don't see much about enemies or serpents. And even less than location." Such is your opinion sir, and you are welcome to it, but its only opinion. Handle Mark 16.
No one can do these signs that except God be with him; (John 3:2.) Who worked Bible signs? God. And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word by the signs that followed. (Mark 16:20.) The apostles obeyed the command, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to the whole creation. (Verse 15.) The Lord kept his promise,Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. (Matt. 28:20.) The Lord was not only with them, but worked with them. What did the Lord do? Confirmed the word preached by the apostles. How did he do it? By the signs that followed. Then the promise, These signs shall accompany them that believe. (verse 17), was fulfilled. The Lord confirmed the word preached by the apostles by working the signs. The signs were proofs that the apostles were God's messengers, and that the message delivered by them was God's message. How did God work signs? 1. Through Christ. Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God unto you by mighty works and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, even as ye yourselves know. (Acts 2:22.) 2. Through inspired men. All the multitude kept silence; and they hearkened unto Barnabas and Paul, rehearsing what signs and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles through them. (Acts 15:12.) God worked miracles (signs) through Christ and inspired men as his agents or representatives. How did God work through agents? By his spirit. In the power of signs and wonders, in the power of the Holy Spirit; so that from Jerusalem, and round about even unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ (Rom. 15:19.) God did not leave heaven and come to the earth to work signs, but he sent the Holy Spirit to his earthly representatives and through them worked the signs. Working signs is one thing and signs following is a different thing. Signs must be worked before it is possible for them to follow. Thunder follows lightning. But it is impossible for thunder to follow before the lightning flashes. It is as much impossible for signs to follow before they are worked as it is for thunder to follow before the lightning flashes. When the lightning flashes you may expect the thunder to follow but not before. So when the signs are worked we may expect them to follow. God worked them (verse 20) so we may expect them to follow as he promised (verse 17). What were the signs to follow? 1. They shall;cast out demons. This was done. (Acts 8:7; 5:16.) 2. They shall speak with new tongues. This was done on the day of Pentecost as well as at other times. (Acts 2:4-11; 10:46; 19:6; 1 Cor. 12:10.) A new tongue is a language not studied or known. On Pentecost the apostles preached the gospel in thirteen different languages. Languages they had never studied and knew nothing about. It was, of course, the Spirit speaking through them. 3.They shall take up serpents. Paul did this (Acts 28:5) and was unhurt. Gospel Advocate
 
Hi Smaller--
You write: "If your insistence is that the matters are not spiritual in nature whatdo you expect me to say?" Well, first of all, I expect you to handle Mark16, which to date you have not done.

There were 'several' observations put forth. You are welcome to address them. If you don't want to there is no sense repeating them.

In the second place, I do not recall ever saying the "signs" of Mark 16 were not of a spiritual significance.

You just said they were LITERAL. Obviously they are in fact SPIRITUAL.

The 'fact' of 'casting out devils' categorically places that matter in the realm of THE SPIRITUAL. None of us are going to see a physical devil flying out of anyone.

Yet we can all see this type of activity transpired throughout the text.

I gave a very simple example of a 'casting out' with matters of people believing or 'being saved.' Did you bother to read the details? If so, engage.

In fact vs. 20 teaches the "signs" were for "confirming the word", certainly "confirming" is of a spiritual nature.

Of course such matters are 'spiritual' in nature.

People 'confess' Jesus as Lord as a matter of UNSEEN FAITH, expressed 'literally.' It is however a 'spiritual matter' of their heart.

In the third place, are you denying that a physical act (such as those "signs" of Mk.16) cannot haved a spiritual result?

They undoubtedly result from 'spiritual' engagements.

I take the position that a Divine command requiring a physical act can and often does have a spiritual result.

Sectarians line up puppet mouths every day, commanding that their prescribed external puppetry acts and actions automatically means there is spiritual matter of fact.
It may be or it may not be.

The RCC and E.O. have taught this way for centuries. Not saying they aren't legit in some ways either. But at least they are honest enough to not sell it as a fact to their flocks, only as a maybe.

Few if any are equipped to take 'tangible literal measures' on spiritual matters anyway.

The field and genre itself tends to transcend those kinds of measures.

s
 
“‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19I will show wonders in the heaven above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved." Acts 2:17

"But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. 2For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, 4treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. 6For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, 7always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth." 2Timothy 3:1-7

I do not say that I know everything, but I acknowledge what I don't know. My studies aren't perfect I'm sure as I'm still being taken from glory to glory. Though, you kept saying I'm off topic when our discussion is clearly "Does the Holy Spirit move after Acts". Whether you think I have a "gift" or not, I still have "faith with deeds" - James 2. I pray for people and they get healed, to God be the glory! No reason to get huffy puffy about the whole thing as you'd think this would make a believer happy to hear of such things.

I see miracles every week, and healings are powerful, but not as powerful as prophesies that've come true I'm sure I just opened a big can of worms now, as I believe God's people still prophesy. But again, this should excite you if your "Spirit filled" as it edifies the whole church.

P.S. I'm not claiming to be a prophet, so please don't twist my words. I've seen God use many people speak things that God has told them to say. Are they prophets? Again, I don't know, but I do know God used them!



Justin,

I wasn't getting "huffy puffy," my question was sincere. If you want to discuss people changing what they believe that's fine. I'm not sure what it is that you would like addressed in these passages. They say that in the last days God would pout out His Spirit and that deceivers would come. I think everyone would agree that this has happened. However, after this happened Paul said the prophecy, tongues, and knowledge would cease.

You didn't address the passages from Isaiah. He said the signs and wonders were for Israel. Israel as a nation was driven out when the temple was destroyed in 70 AD. and hadn't been a nation again until 1948. If the gifts were active as you say, who were they a sign to? You guys keeps talking about 1 Corinthians 12 and 14, yet it is in chapter 14 that Paul says tongues was for a sign and he quotes Isaiah chapter 28 the chapter I posted showing that tongues was a sign of judgment against Israel.

What happen to 'this is a search for truth for me?' You said you were searching for the truth yet it seems you've not considered a lot of evidence that's been presented.

If there is something specific about those passages you would like discussed please point it out.
 



Justin,

I wasn't getting "huffy puffy," my question was sincere. If you want to discuss people changing what they believe that's fine. I'm not sure what it is that you would like addressed in these passages. They say that in the last days God would pout out His Spirit and that deceivers would come. I think everyone would agree that this has happened. However, after this happened Paul said the prophecy, tongues, and knowledge would cease.

You didn't address the passages from Isaiah. He said the signs and wonders were for Israel. Israel as a nation was driven out when the temple was destroyed in 70 AD. and hadn't been a nation again until 1948. If the gifts were active as you say, who were they a sign to? You guys keeps talking about 1 Corinthians 12 and 14, yet it is in chapter 14 that Paul says tongues was for a sign and he quotes Isaiah chapter 28 the chapter I posted showing that tongues was a sign of judgment against Israel.

What happen to 'this is a search for truth for me?' You said you were searching for the truth yet it seems you've not considered a lot of evidence that's been presented.

If there is something specific about those passages you would like discussed please point it out.

You had said earlier that each time it says "last days" that is said the signs and wonders were evil. The other verses also say that the "gift of the Holy Spirit is for all people and those afar off." You'd agree the fruit of the Spirit is still around? Just not the gifts? All the gifts are from the same Spirit correct? Why would it change?

Regardless of "gifts", what about all the signs and wonders we see today? Are all christians lying when they saw God does miracles? That people are healed? That personal prophesy over their life is false?
 
Regardless of "gifts", what about all the signs and wonders we see today? Are all christians lying when they saw God does miracles? That people are healed? That personal prophesy over their life is false?

Who in any Church that claims to "Prophesy" has ever said anything the Bible has not already told us? and who speaking in so called tongues then having someone so called interpret it ever said anything the Bible has not already told us?
 
You had said earlier that each time it says "last days" that is said the signs and wonders were evil. The other verses also say that the "gift of the Holy Spirit is for all people and those afar off."


Maybe I wasn't clear. I thought I said end times but may not have. At the time of the apostles God did pour out His Spirit. The however apostles, , warn Christians about being deceived over and over.

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.(Mat 24:20-24 KJV)

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. (2Th 2:6-10 KJV)

The other verses also say that the "gift of the Holy Spirit is for all people and those afar off."

That could also be interpreted afar off in distance. In other words not just those Jews there but those who were at a distance.

You'd agree the fruit of the Spirit is still around?


Yes


Just not the gifts?


I agree that the Spirit is still alive and well. I believe God still does miracle. I believe he still answers prayer. The difference is that the gifts in the New Testament were given to people. It was more than just laying hands on someone and praying. Paul said the spirits of the prophets were subject to the prophets. In other words they had control over their gift of prophecy. He told the Corinthians,

26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. (1Co 14:26-32 KJV)


All the gifts are from the same Spirit correct? Why would it change?


Yes, the same Spirit. Why would it change? It would change if God was done with it. Why did the Law change, or the covenants? God had finished with the first covenant and initiated the second. I saiah said that the signs and wonders were for Israel, after Jerusalem was destroyed and the Jews were scattered there was not longer an Israel to warn.


Regardless of "gifts", what about all the signs and wonders we see today? Are all Christians lying when they saw God does miracles? That people are healed?

Not at all, however, as I said, God doing miracles and a person having the NT gifts are two different things.


That personal prophesy over their life is false?

I'm not sure what you mean by personal prophecy.
 
Hi Smaller
You wrote referring to what I wrote on Mk.16: "You just said they were LITERAL. Obviously they are in fact SPIRITUAL." Yes, the acts were "literal" such as "speak in new tongues", but apparently you didn't read what I said about the spiritual nature from Mark 16:20.

Again, you say: " None of us are going to see a PHYSICAL DEVIL flying out of anyone." I don't know what they SAW when a demon was cast out and neither do you. You may speculate if you choose. However, they could be HEARD! Mark 3:11 is but one example of several. Now while you may not see a demon they could speak and be heard, AND THAT, SIR IS PHYISICAL! They could carry on conversations. So, do you believe the demons of Mk.15 were symbolic, allegorical etc? Come on and deal with Mk.16.

Then you say: "They undoubedly result from 'spiritural' engagements." Yes, yes, and with a physical act, baptism and the Lord's supper for examples---a physical act resulting from the spiritual interest of the one performing the phyisical act which results in a spiritual result and/or blessing.

You wish me to "engage" in something you feel I've neglected. Its not clear but if you will do us the favor of restating it I will try to "engage" the engageing.

Now, answer Mk.16. Were those "signs" literal or not? And if not, why not?
 
Smaller

In my above post, 2nd paragraph, next to last line, Mk.15 should read Mk.16. Sorry about that.
 
Justin,

I wasn't getting "huffy puffy," my question was sincere. If you want to discuss people changing what they believe that's fine. I'm not sure what it is that you would like addressed in these passages. They say that in the last days God would pout out His Spirit and that deceivers would come. I think everyone would agree that this has happened. However, after this happened Paul said the prophecy, tongues, and knowledge would cease.

You didn't address the passages from Isaiah. He said the signs and wonders were for Israel. Israel as a nation was driven out when the temple was destroyed in 70 AD. and hadn't been a nation again until 1948. If the gifts were active as you say, who were they a sign to? You guys keeps talking about 1 Corinthians 12 and 14, yet it is in chapter 14 that Paul says tongues was for a sign and he quotes Isaiah chapter 28 the chapter I posted showing that tongues was a sign of judgment against Israel.

What happen to 'this is a search for truth for me?' You said you were searching for the truth yet it seems you've not considered a lot of evidence that's been presented.

If there is something specific about those passages you would like discussed please point it out.

1 Corinthians 14:2-5

King James Version (KJV)

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

This say the gifts were to be used to edify the church. Not all gifts were signs and wonders.
 
Again, you say: " None of us are going to see a PHYSICAL DEVIL flying out of anyone." I don't know what they SAW when a demon was cast out and neither do you.

That does bring up other matters then doesn't it?

Are 'devils' physical like people? Are devils 'people?'

Are 'devils' changed into children of God?

Are 'devils' tangible physical entities that any common unbeliever can see on the street walking next to them?

You may speculate if you choose.

It would be speculation if we had no marks to go by already.

However, they could be HEARD!

Indeed.

Mark 3:11 is but one example of several. Now while you may not see a demon they could speak and be heard, AND THAT, SIR IS PHYISICAL!

Never said otherwise. Using a body and voice of a person however does not make them and the person the same beings.

They could carry on conversations. So, do you believe the demons of Mk.15 were symbolic, allegorical etc? Come on and deal with Mk.16.

They point to matters not physically observable as 'stand alone devil matters' and are engaged 'spiritually.'

Addressed this prior. Unbelievers are blinded in mind by the god of this world. We do not 'see' that blinder, though we certainly may 'know it' to be a fact, in part by actions, in part by hearing.

The question on the table for you is are they tangible physical beings?

Then you say: "They undoubedly result from 'spiritural' engagements." Yes, yes, and with a physical act, baptism and the Lord's supper for examples---a physical act resulting from the spiritual interest of the one performing the phyisical act which results in a spiritual result and/or blessing.

There ya go.

Yet even this does not mean there are no demonic issues does it? For example with Simon the sorcerer in Acts 8.
You wish me to "engage" in something you feel I've neglected. Its not clear but if you will do us the favor of restating it I will try to "engage" the engageing.

Now, answer Mk.16. Were those "signs" literal or not? And if not, why not?

They are and remain spiritual matters. And yes, there are many signs.

Do we need a rehash, really?

Casting out also contains drawing out into the open. Jesus, John the Baptist and the Apostles also 'drew them out' and did NOT cast them out of the persons. Pharisees and Saducees given as prior examples.

Were they vipers? Or were the children of the devil in them vipers?

It's an interesting observation.

You might consider that this does not appear, but a matter that can be taken as a fact:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

The easy math on this is that all have sinned and have sin, and of course SIN is of the devil. It is problematic to 'remove' that worker from the equation of any of our sins.

So, in regards to Mark 4:15, HOW MANY PEOPLE does this happen to?

When you say 'all of them' we might be on the same page.


s
 
There are also two types of tongues.

Divers tongues were earthly language used to witness. the gift of tongues.

Unknown tongues were heavenly or Spiritual tongues unknown to men. Prayer and praise. From the Holy Spirit. Edifys oneself.
 



Maybe I wasn't clear. I thought I said end times but may not have. At the time of the apostles God did pour out His Spirit. The however apostles, , warn Christians about being deceived over and over.

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.(Mat 24:20-24 KJV)

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. (2Th 2:6-10 KJV)



That could also be interpreted afar off in distance. In other words not just those Jews there but those who were at a distance.



Yes




I agree that the Spirit is still alive and well. I believe God still does miracle. I believe he still answers prayer. The difference is that the gifts in the New Testament were given to people. It was more than just laying hands on someone and praying. Paul said the spirits of the prophets were subject to the prophets. In other words they had control over their gift of prophecy. He told the Corinthians,

26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. (1Co 14:26-32 KJV)




Yes, the same Spirit. Why would it change? It would change if God was done with it. Why did the Law change, or the covenants? God had finished with the first covenant and initiated the second. I saiah said that the signs and wonders were for Israel, after Jerusalem was destroyed and the Jews were scattered there was not longer an Israel to warn.




Not at all, however, as I said, God doing miracles and a person having the NT gifts are two different things.




I'm not sure what you mean by personal prophecy.

Before I get into the meat of the message, I'll explain personal prophecy. Say a man walks up to you and says, "God told me such and such", "and if you don't ____". Or just one that has happened to me. I was talking to a guy then God told me his back was in pain and that he'd be healed. So I told him that then prayed and surprise he was healed :)

You speak of the Holy Spirit like it's no longer needed. In OT the Spirit was there, even since the beginning "hovering over the earth". Now that Acts is over the Holy Spirit changed? I don't see any Scripture of this, none. What you've shown about once we're "perfect the gifts will cease". Are we perfect? No. Your complimenting verses that I see are only about lying signs and wonders. What about the rest of the Bible? Don't the apostles teach us to stir up these gifts?

You said that only those who the apostles laid their hands on. Though, you failed to recognized the verse where others were casting demons out in the name of Jesus and the disciples got mad.

Below is another good comment by Deborah. I'd like to add if the church is still here and not "perfect", than why would the gifts be done away with if they edify the church?

BTW you talk about some paper? I don't know where this is? I will give it a glance, but it won't change my mind about God doing miracles.

1 Corinthians 14:2-5

King James Version (KJV)

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

This say the gifts were to be used to edify the church. Not all gifts were signs and wonders.

Well said, thanks for sharing :)
 
There are also two types of tongues.

Divers tongues were earthly language used to witness. the gift of tongues.

Unknown tongues were heavenly or Spiritual tongues unknown to men. Prayer and praise. From the Holy Spirit. Edifys oneself.

No, tongues just meant languages.
 
Well Smaller, "there you go again" to quotre President Reagon. You want to bring up "other matters" when I've previously said my point, and only point in this thread has been the "signs" of Mark 16:17,18. I've asked you to deal with the passage and you continue to shy away from it edited I fail to see how your surmizes on "other matters" confronts Mark 16. Perhaps you should start a new thread on then, but for now I shall hold you to Mark 16.
 
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