Misunderstand by Jws and Protestants

[Runningman]

It doesn’t matter if he was called all or none, as the ideas of him being all of those is given.


You agree with that particular English translation, which is one of many, of that particular version of the Septuagint, which is also one of many.

The one I quoted can be demonstrated to be a superior and valid translation. For starters, it actually fits into the Bible. The Isaiah 9:6 from most Bibles doesn't even really fit with the Bible because he was never "called" those names.

 

[Free]

The one I quoted can be demonstrated to be a superior and valid translation. For starters, it actually fits into the Bible. The Isaiah 9:6 from most Bibles doesn't even really fit with the Bible because he was never "called" those names.

Which, again, is not relevant because he was all those things.

 

[miamited]

Yes, it generically means an anointed one. Jesus received the Christ anointing from God in Acts 10:38 and regular believers can have it according to 1 John 2:20. It isn’t intuitive in my opinion until you look at the Greek. Jesus received enchrisen and believers received chrisma. Jesus is the definitive Christ but believers can be “in Christ” meaning in the Christ anointing. It doesn’t make someone God.

Hi Runningman

I respectfully disagree. Jesus received his anointing at the house of Simon. With a fine perfume oil called Spikenard. Worth, we are told, nearly a years wages. Most Scriptures even title this passage in Matthew 26 as the 'Anointing of Jesus'. The anointing also had to be done within the 69 sevens that led up to the Messiah being cut off, according to Daniel's prophecy received from the angel Gabriel. So, to be prophetically correct, it did not happen after Jesus was crucified. How it is that our translators literally title a part of the Scriptures as 'the anointing of Jesus' and yet no one connects that with the prophecy of 'the anointing of Jesus (Messiah).

But you are correct, the anointing was for the Messiah that Gabriel told Daniel would be cut off in 483 years from the time of the decree issued to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. It didn't make him God, it made him an anointed priest of God, just as it did for Aaron and the priests of the temple to follow. Every priest had to be anointed to serve as a priest in God's temple. It was a part of the law of the priesthood and the Scriptures also refer to Jesus as our High Priest. Jesus kept the law in every point!

God bless,
Ted

 

[Runningman]

Which, again, is not relevant because he was all those things.

Not to quibble, but didn't Isaiah directly say he would be "called" those names? Well, I am going to hold Isaiah to that and never back down. I do believe Isaiah is a bonafide prophet of God and I don't blame him for his prophecy apparently not finding a fulfillment based on some of the translations that came after him. Isaiah 9:6 from the LXX doesn't fail.

 

[Runningman]

Hi Runningman

I respectfully disagree. Jesus received his anointing at the house of Simon. With a fine perfume oil called Spikenard. Worth, we are told, nearly a years wages. Most Scriptures even title this passage in Matthew 26 as the 'Anointing of Jesus'. The anointing also had to be done within the 69 sevens that led up to the Messiah being cut off, according to Daniel's prophecy received from the angel Gabriel. So, to be prophetically correct, it did not happen after Jesus was crucified. How it is that our translators literally title a part of the Scriptures as 'the anointing of Jesus' and yet no one connects that with the prophecy of 'the anointing of Jesus (Messiah).

But you are correct, the anointing was for the Messiah that Gabriel told Daniel would be cut off in 483 years from the time of the decree issued to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. It didn't make him God, it made him an anointed priest of God, just as it did for Aaron and the priests of the temple to follow. Every priest had to be anointed to serve as a priest in God's temple. It was a part of the law of the priesthood and the Scriptures also refer to Jesus as our High Priest. Jesus kept the law in every point!

God bless,
Ted

Well, I don't disagree that there are various anointings in different contexts. However, Acts 10:28 does indeed say "God anointed Jesus" with the Holy Spirit and power at John's water baptism. So the Acts 10:28 anointing isn't post-crucifixion after all. No problem with Daniel's prophecy still.

 

[miamited]

Hi Runningman

Well, here's what Acts 10:28 says in my translation:

He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean.
It's actually 10:38
God bless,
Ted

 

[miamited]

Hi Runningman

Yes, and that verse has Paul explaining how God anointed Jesus. The prophecy Gabriel gave to Daniel was that 'he and his people' were to anoint the Most Holy.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but I don't think God considers himself to be one of Daniel's people. That better fits with the woman at Simon's house because she was one of 'his people'. A Jewish woman.

God bless,
Ted

 

[journeyman]

Not to quibble, but didn't Isaiah directly say he would be "called" those names? Well, I am going to hold Isaiah to that and never back down. I do believe Isaiah is a bonafide prophet of God and I don't blame him for his prophecy apparently not finding a fulfillment based on some of the translations that came after him. Isaiah 9:6 from the LXX doesn't fail.

Ask any believer who those names apply to.
People think many prophecies must be fulfilled by everyone on earth proclaiming Jesus as Lord but that's not true.
Like peace on earth available to all but given only to believers.

 

[Runningman]

Hi Runningman

Well, here's what Acts 10:28 says in my translation:

He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean.
It's actually 10:38
God bless,
Ted

Doh. Yes you're right. Thanks and Acts 10:38 is the one I meant to reference.

 

[Runningman]

Hi Runningman

Yes, and that verse has Paul explaining how God anointed Jesus. The prophecy Gabriel gave to Daniel was that 'he and his people' were to anoint the Most Holy.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but I don't think God considers himself to be one of Daniel's people. That better fits with the woman at Simon's house because she was one of 'his people'. A Jewish woman.

God bless,
Ted

If we are talking about Daniel 9:24, then it seems the KJV, NKJV, and a few others refer to an anointing of the Most Holy while more refer to an anointing of the Most Holy Place or Holy of Holies. That would kind of change what this is even talking about depending on which version is true. What's your perspective on this?

 

[Runningman]

Ask any believer who those names apply to.
People think many prophecies must be fulfilled by everyone on earth proclaiming Jesus as Lord but that's not true.
Like peace on earth available to all but given only to believers.

I am a believer and I don't think the Isaiah 9:6 verse about him being called "Everlasting Father" or "Mighty God" is even remotely accurate.

 

[journeyman]

I am a believer and I don't think the Isaiah 9:6 verse about him being called "Everlasting Father" or "Mighty God" is even remotely accurate.

I get what you're saying, but theologians have flipped the gospel upside down.
The scriptures show the Messiahs' authority over all evil, even conquering those who tried to silence Him.
The scriptures also show the Messiahs' followers as the mighty.

Have you ever thought that when our Lord was transfigured before Peter, James and John...that's the way our Father and the angels of Heaven see Jesus all the time.
Paul describes our Savior as a man who conquered all. His followers the same way.

In Revelation, Christ and His army are dressed in white defeating the beast(s).

Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. 2Tim.2:3 KJV

 

[miamited]

Hi Rodger

I hope that you took my advice and prayed about this issue. Because here comes the real blockbuster!!

Consider that Jesus' adult ministry was bookended by two of the greatest old covenant accounts of 'what' God's servant, Israel's Messiah, would do. His very first public pronouncement to Israel declaring who he was came as he was standing in the synagogue surrounded by the people of Nazareth. He had just recently received his baptism and the Holy Spirit came down upon him. He had immediately gone out into the wilderness and faced his first test and temptation by Satan. He then went into that synagogue and began his ministry with these words:

“The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.” Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him. He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

He then went out and spent three years doing all the things that Isaiah had written to God's people what their Messiah would be doing. He went throughout all of Israel fulfilling every word that Isaiah had written about God's servant come to us. He declared the Scripture that speaks of 'how' he would live and then went out and lived it.

His final teaching to his people, as he hung on that cross was to direct those around him to the Scriptures about him. To again proclaim before God's people this is who I am:

"My God, my God. Why have you forsaken me?"

He left God's people in Jerusalem declaring to them and giving them a sign, just as he had done when he started his ministry, from the Scriptures of just exactly how he would die. Then he did it. The only thing he left off from what he said to them on that cross, was, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

God bless you. And may he be merciful to you that you will have eyes to see and ears to hear what Jesus has said to us. 'Why' he said the things that he did in both of these circumstances. Jesus proclaimed two pieces of Scripture. One concerning how he would live his life. The other concerning how he would lay down his life. Both bookending perfectly his visitation to God's people proving that he was the long-awaited Messiah of Israel.

Brother, God did not forsake his perfect Son. Jesus was doing the same thing as he breathed his last at the end of his ministry and visitation to God's people, that he had done when he began the ministry and visitation to God's people. Selah!

Remember how I asked you to pray about it? Well I did also. Often when I'm teaching of God's goodness and mercy that is proclaimed in His word, I pray to the Father that He give me a sign that what I am teaching is the truth. Now you may not believe this, but I bolted out of bed at 4am this very morning understanding this that I have just said to you. I have never, ever in my life even understood or discussed the bookended life of Jesus' ministry as I am proclaiming it to you now. God is good. God is very, very good. He answers the prayers of His children.

God bless you.
Ted

 

[miamited]

And now I am going back to bed... it's 4:45am.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Runningman]

I get what you're saying, but theologians have flipped the gospel upside down.
The scriptures show the Messiahs' authority over all evil, even conquering those who tried to silence Him.
The scriptures also show the Messiahs' followers as the mighty.

Very true. The Messiah and his followers both had similar authority and power. This power still exists today.

Have you ever thought that when our Lord was transfigured before Peter, James and John...that's the way our Father and the angels of Heaven see Jesus all the time.

It's certainly possible.

Paul describes our Savior as a man who conquered all. His followers the same way.

In Revelation, Christ and His army are dressed in white defeating the beast(s).

Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. 2Tim.2:3 KJV

Thanks for that commentary. It's refreshing to see someone make the connection between Jesus and his followers about what they have in common and not how they are so different.

 

[miamited]

Hi journeyman

that's the way our Father and the angels of Heaven see Jesus all the time.

That's certainly a worthy consideration.

God bless,
Ted

 

[miamited]

Hi Runningman

If we are talking about Daniel 9:24, then it seems the KJV, NKJV, and a few others refer to an anointing of the Most Holy while more refer to an anointing of the Most Holy Place or Holy of Holies. That would kind of change what this is even talking about depending on which version is true. What's your perspective on this?

Well, if you've been following this discussion and my posts within, you'll see that that's exactly the point that I've been trying to make.

Hey, let me pick your brain a bit. In Daniel 9 we read in some translations: 24 “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

But in others we read:
King James Version
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

American Standard Version
24 Seventy weeks are decreed upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy.

GOD'S WORD Translation
24 "Seventy sets of seven time periods have been assigned for your people and your holy city. These time periods will serve to bring an end to rebellion, to stop sin, to forgive wrongs, to usher in everlasting righteousness, to put a seal on a prophet's vision, and to anoint the Most Holy One.

I'm curious, is the word 'place' a part of the oldest manuscripts of Daniels writing?

I ask, because this is where Daniel is told that his people had certain tasks to perform, and I believe that they performed each one. This is one of those places where it was the will of God and God's will was not going to be thwarted. Since God has said throughout the Scriptures that Jesus had to die, I believe that Israel completed each of these tasks. To anoint the 'Most Holy' is how I believe God intended this passage to be written and understood and it was that woman at the meal who accomplished that for God. Jesus was, in that moment, anointed with what would have been the most finest perfume with which anyone could be anointed. Most translations of the Scriptures that have the little title headings added even call this passage the 'anointing of Jesus'!

So, should it be 'place' or should it just be 'Most Holy'?

After asking that question, I offered a prayer to God, as is my custom often in places where I question something in God's word that I don't understand or that may have various understandings that people make of it, and I want to know what the truth of the matter is. It was the next day that I picked up an ad that was mixed in among my news feed page about a 'free Jewish translation of the Scriptures'. Part of the ad speaks of how this translation was put together by a group whose mission is to put bibles in the hands of the Jews that are translated from the Jewish Scriptures as 'they' know them and that their mission is to prove to the Jews that Jesus is their Messiah. Here's the link: https://free.messianicbible.com/res...tm_term=old testament&utm_content=Bible Words

I wanted to get it for the very purpose that I was hoping it would show me how a Jewish person would have understood Daniel's writing on this very subject. I wanted to see how the Jews translated that very sentence. Well, lo and behold, if you go on their site they have links to various prophetic passages of the Scriptures and guess what? Daniel 9:24-27 is one of the featured prophecies. So I clicked on it and read this: https://free.messianicbible.com/messianic-prophecies/daniel-9/

My heart leaped within my breast. As very often happens, especially in these matters of seeking God's council regarding the understanding of His testimony to us, God seemed to have answered my prayer. I mean, I spend waaaaaay too much time on my news feed. It's pretty much the home page that comes up when I go on the net and never had I seen this ad for this 'Jewish' translation of the Scriptures. But the day after asking in prayer for God to give me wisdom and understanding by His Spirit of the things I was reading, this ad pops up!

God bless,
Ted

 

[Runningman]

Hi Runningman

Well, if you've been following this discussion and my posts within, you'll see that that's exactly the point that I've been trying to make.

After asking that question, I offered a prayer to God, as is my custom often in places where I question something in God's word that I don't understand or that may have various understandings that people make of it, and I want to know what the truth of the matter is. It was the next day that I picked up an ad that was mixed in among my news feed page about a 'free Jewish translation of the Scriptures'. Part of the ad speaks of how this translation was put together by a group whose mission is to put bibles in the hands of the Jews that are translated from the Jewish Scriptures as 'they' know them and that their mission is to prove to the Jews that Jesus is their Messiah. Here's the link: https://free.messianicbible.com/reservenow.aspx?network=a&kw=old testament&d=c&dm=&campaign=278231376&adgroup=1217159451391209&placement=&msclkid=3bba3d85e18e1d96b2605b9fe26e5571&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Bible - Autocomplete&utm_term=old testament&utm_content=Bible Words

I wanted to get it for the very purpose that I was hoping it would show me how a Jewish person would have understood Daniel's writing on this very subject. I wanted to see how the Jews translated that very sentence. Well, lo and behold, if you go on their site they have links to various prophetic passages of the Scriptures and guess what? Daniel 9:24-27 is one of the featured prophecies. So I clicked on it and read this: https://free.messianicbible.com/messianic-prophecies/daniel-9/

My heart leaped within my breast. As very often happens, especially in these matters of seeking God's council regarding the understanding of His testimony to us, God seemed to have answered my prayer. I mean, I spend waaaaaay too much time on my news feed. It's pretty much the home page that comes up when I go on the net and never had I seen this ad for this 'Jewish' translation of the Scriptures. But the day after asking in prayer for God to give me wisdom and understanding by His Spirit of the things I was reading, this ad pops up!

God bless,
Ted

Interesting, but who or what is being called the most holy though? That part still seems vague to me. Who or what do you think is being anointed and by whom?

 

[Rodger]

Hi Rodger

I hope that you took my advice and prayed about this issue. Because here comes the real blockbuster!!

Consider that Jesus' adult ministry was bookended by two of the greatest old covenant accounts of 'what' God's servant, Israel's Messiah, would do. His very first public pronouncement to Israel declaring who he was came as he was standing in the synagogue surrounded by the people of Nazareth. He had just recently received his baptism and the Holy Spirit came down upon him. He had immediately gone out into the wilderness and faced his first test and temptation by Satan. He then went into that synagogue and began his ministry with these words:

“The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.” Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him. He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

He then went out and spent three years doing all the things that Isaiah had written to God's people what their Messiah would be doing. He went throughout all of Israel fulfilling every word that Isaiah had written about God's servant come to us. He declared the Scripture that speaks of 'how' he would live and then went out and lived it.

His final teaching to his people, as he hung on that cross was to direct those around him to the Scriptures about him. To again proclaim before God's people this is who I am:

"My God, my God. Why have you forsaken me?"

He left God's people in Jerusalem declaring to them and giving them a sign, just as he had done when he started his ministry, from the Scriptures of just exactly how he would die. Then he did it. The only thing he left off from what he said to them on that cross, was, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

God bless you. And may he be merciful to you that you will have eyes to see and ears to hear what Jesus has said to us. 'Why' he said the things that he did in both of these circumstances. Jesus proclaimed two pieces of Scripture. One concerning how he would live his life. The other concerning how he would lay down his life. Both bookending perfectly his visitation to God's people proving that he was the long-awaited Messiah of Israel.

Brother, God did not forsake his perfect Son. Jesus was doing the same thing as he breathed his last at the end of his ministry and visitation to God's people, that he had done when he began the ministry and visitation to God's people. Selah!

Remember how I asked you to pray about it? Well I did also. Often when I'm teaching of God's goodness and mercy that is proclaimed in His word, I pray to the Father that He give me a sign that what I am teaching is the truth. Now you may not believe this, but I bolted out of bed at 4am this very morning understanding this that I have just said to you. I have never, ever in my life even understood or discussed the bookended life of Jesus' ministry as I am proclaiming it to you now. God is good. God is very, very good. He answers the prayers of His children.

God bless you.
Ted

Ted....you are not stating your thoughts so as to allow me to know what it is you are trying to say.

Jesus quoted Isaiah 61:1. Did you notice that Jesus did NOT read all of the text He was quoting,????
He made NO mention of the phrase...."the day of vengeance of our God".

Why.........He looked at that crowd and said........."This day is this Scripture fulfilled in your ears".

You see the "day of vengence had not come".

Now again, I do not know what you are trying to say by "My God My God, why have you forsaken Me", but that was NOT a teaching as much as it was a cry of pain and anguish.

As I have said.....His call to the Father was becuase at that moment He was made sin for us. As such, God could not look upon Him.

I will say again that the exact nature of the Trinity, by definition, is beyond human understanding. But Scripture is clear that Jesus' sacrificial execution on the cross involves something far, far greater and more spiritual than merely the death of the body. In some esoteric way, the Trinity, the reality of holy unity and love, is impacted. Jesus is suffering, but even worse, He is suffering alone.

The words Jesus speaks are found at the beginning of Psalm 22, another important prophecy about the Messiah. Rather than this being a shout of confusion, or uncertainty, what Jesus says here is a reminder of what is happening, and why.

Taken out of context, it appears Jesus is asking God for information, but Jesus knows exactly why God is forsaking Him. It is because the weight of the sin of the world has been placed on Jesus' shoulders, and God cannot bear to see it or be in communion with He who bears it.

It is still appropriate for Jesus to ask. The cry expresses His emotional turmoil as well as the moral unfairness of His situation. He isn't sinful. But "for our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God" .
Source:https://www.bibleref.com/Mark/15/Mark-15-34.html

 

[Rodger]

And from CARM.org

In Matthew 27:45-46, it says, “Now from the sixth-hour darkness fell upon all the land until the ninth hour. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?” If Jesus is God, why would He say this?

Jesus quoted Psalm 22:1 which begins with, “My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?” Jesus quoted this Psalm in order to draw attention to it and the fact that He was fulfilling it there on the cross. Consider verses 11-18 in Psalm 22:

“Be not far from me, for trouble is near; For there is none to help.12 Many bulls have surrounded me; Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me. 13 They open wide their mouth at me, As a ravening and a roaring lion. 14 I am poured out like water, And all my bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; It is melted within me. 15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd, And my tongue cleaves to my jaws, And Thou dost lay me in the dust of death. 16 For dogs have surrounded me; A band of evildoers has encompassed me; They pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I can count all my bones. They look, they stare at me; 18 They divide my garments among them, And for my clothing they cast lots.

The term ‘dogs’ was used by the Jews to refer to Gentiles (cf. Matt. 15:21-28). His heart has melted within Him (v. 14). During the crucifixion process, blood loss causes the heart to beat harder and harder and become extremely fatigued. Dehydration occurs (v. 15). Verses 16b-18 speak of piercing His hands and feet and dividing His clothing by casting lots. This is exactly what happened as described in Matt. 27:35.

Psalm 22 was written about 1,000 years before Christ was born. At that time, crucifixion had not yet been invented. Actually, the Phoenicians developed it, and Rome borrowed the agonizing means of execution from them. So, when Rome ruled over Israel, it became the Roman means of capital punishment imposed upon the Jews whose biblical means of execution was stoning. Nevertheless, Jesus is pointing to the scriptures to substantiate His messianic mission.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Why did Jesus say why have you forsaken me?

Why did Jesus say why have you forsaken me? Buy my books here When Jesus is on the cross he cries out My God my God why have you forsaken me? Matthew 27:46 And

www.followintruth.com

Jesus was using psalm 22 to answer their question was he the Christ, that he had previously told them if he answered they would not believe. Here he was not simply declaring he was the Christ verbally he was physically demonstrating the fact and using the scriptures to validate his answer.
YES I AM THE CHRIST …and I am fulfilling the very scriptures of the Christ right in front of your very eyes. I am even quoting the very scripture that talks about what is happening.

But his point, just as it mostly still is today, was completely missed, Some of the people even believed he was calling Elias and waited for Elias to come and save him.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The Father who loved His Son with the greatest love that anyone could ever feel or imagine for another, did not abandon the Son that He loved. According to the Scriptures, God and Jesus have existed eternally together. And Jesus knew what was going to happen. He knew that in three days he would rise again. Why would he then cry that his God had abandoned him. He knew that all that was happening was supposed to happen for the salvation of the world and that God was not abandoning him, but that he was completing God's plan of redemption for us. Why would he think that God had abandoned him?

Friend, he was merely making a last final effort to show the people that he was the promised Messiah.

For Rodger

Were you able to put together the Scriptures that show that David's clothing was divided by lot? How about that his hands and feet were pierced? Or maybe you found where he suffered some agonizing death that caused his tongue to be stuck to the roof of his mouth because of his dehydration? How about when men were standing around David in some terrible agony of his life and mocked him and said to David or those around him, "He trusted in God. Let God come down and save him."

I'm really anxious to hear where you find confirmation of some fulfillment of Psalm 22 in David's life. As you may have read above, the method of putting people to death by driving nails through the parts of their body to hang them to a tree hadn't even been invented or thought of in David's day.

Anything?

Jesus died still teaching us who he was.

God bless,
Ted

Ted......Are you saying that Jesus was David?

You said.....
"Were you able to put together the Scriptures that show that David's clothing was divided by lot? How about that his hands and feet were pierced? Or maybe you found where he suffered some agonizing death that caused his tongue to be stuck to the roof of his mouth because of his dehydration? How about when men were standing around David in some terrible agony of his life and mocked him and said to David or those around him, "He trusted in God. Let God come down and save him."

Why would you think to ask if I thought Psalms 22 was not a Messianic Scripture. That is a fact that every Christian understands.

Most historians say that crucifixion was 1st done by the Babyloians and then perfected by the Persians.