Misunderstand by Jws and Protestants

[journeyman]

Hi journeyman

That's certainly a worthy consideration.

God bless,
Ted

I hope you seriously consider it Ted because I really care about you and the rest of the folks here.
The seduction our God warned us about is all over (so called) Christian doctrine right now.
I believe Paul taught how God the Son showed mercy to lawbreakers by not enforcing the oenalty of it against them.
Paul says He put the condemnation of the law to death. As though they didn't exist to Him. Not the blessings of the. He lived the blessings (and does so still.)

Can we see the law dead to us that way? When it comes to sitting in judgement of others? He could have, but we never can.

I'm trying to make you see that if the Messiah didn't endure sin against Himself, it would have been judgement day right then... cause He ain't the One going away.

 

[miamited]

Hi journeyman

So, is there something that I'm supposed to gain by understanding that Jesus is seen in heaven with an unnatural glow surrounding him? I mean, that is what you're trying to get me to consider, right? That Jesus' glorified body looks as he appeared to the three disciples at the transfiguration. Why is that important for me to understand as it relates to my salvation or understanding of God and who He is?

I'm trying to make you see that if the Messiah didn't endure sin against Himself, it would have been judgement day right then... cause He ain't the One going away.

I have no idea, honestly, your point here. I don't really deal with a lot of 'what ifs' as it relates to God. He has given us His testimony of Himself and His Son and His Spirit. I'm good with understanding the plain teaching of that from the Scriptures.

God bless,
Ted

 

[journeyman]

Hi journeyman

So, is there something that I'm supposed to gain by understanding that Jesus is seen in heaven with an unnatural glow surrounding him?

No, but there is something we're all supposed to gain by understanding Heaven saw Him like that when He walked on earth as an ordinary man. Are you waiting to see Him like that only iin the future? Even of John the baptizer Jesus said,

He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light. Jn.5:35 KJV

Does anyone see us like this,

Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Mt.5:14 KJV

miamited,
I know you believe in Jesus. I'm just showing you how the scriptures I'm comparing reveal Gods' truth has been going on from the very beginning.

When Jesus said,

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. Jn.5:24 ESV

The 1st resurrection is real by faith in Him and it's now, not later. That's all.

 

[miamited]

Hi journeyman

The 1st resurrection is real by faith in Him and it's now, not later. That's all.

Umm, no. As we live this life we receive the assurance of our soon coming salvation by being indwelled with the Holy Spirit. Paul wrote to us that he is given as our guarantee that we will be saved.

Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
The indwelling Holy Spirit, which is what makes anyone born again, born of the Spirit of God, is our guarantee of WHAT IS TO COME.
The Scriptures, for me, are quite clear about the first resurrection and when it happens.

I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

But as far as Jesus' physical appearance today in the heavens of God's domain, I'm willing to allow that he may well look as he did to his disciples on the mount of transfiguration, as the Scriptures describe.

God bless,
Ted

 

[journeyman]

Hi journeyman

Umm, no. As we live this life we receive the assurance of our soon coming salvation by being indwelled with the Holy Spirit. Paul wrote to us that he is given as our guarantee that we will be saved.

Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
The indwelling Holy Spirit, which is what makes
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

What happens when the big bad devil gathers his massive army against the saints?

 

[Rodger]

Yes this is right, but Jesus bore mankinds sins against Himself. They sinned against God on earth. This is why we ask the Lamb for forgiveness.

The Torah teaches individual responsibility to confess and repent to be forgiven through God as a Lamb "Who opened not His mouth" in judgement against sinners.
The unrepentant will face Him in judgement later. The Son allowed Himself to be sinned against without judging them.

I never said that Rodger. You're not listening to what I'm saying. The Son of God bore sins for sure, CONTRARY TO WHAT THE LAW SAYS.

My friend, if Jesus came "in place of" anyone, He came in place of His Father not sinful mankind and this is why we confess and ask Him to forgive us,

God bless you my friend. You have some very strange, and un-biblical views.

Substitutional Atonement is one of the corner stones of the Christian faith.

 

[journeyman]

God bless you my friend. You have some very strange, and un-biblical views.

It's only strange because the world sees the power of Gods' love through Himself as weakness but theologians chose to abopt this worlds view of what real power looks like.

Substitutional Atonement is one of the corner stones of the Christian faith.

It's the corner stone of heresy, because repentance for sinning against the Lamb is necessary to be saved,

except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Lk.13:3 KJV

 

[miamited]

What happens when the big bad devil gathers his massive army against the saints?

They get destroyed and will lay in their graves until the second resurrection.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Rodger]

It's only strange because the world sees the power of Gods' love through Himself as weakness but theologians chose to abopt this worlds view of what real power looks like.

It's the corner stone of heresy, because repentance for sinning against the Lamb is necessary to be saved,

except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Lk.13:3 KJV

I do not agree in any way.

Agreed in that All sin is ultimatly against God.

1 John 3:4 (ESV)​

"Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness."

Romans 4:15 (ESV)​

"For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression."

We sin against others by doing to them what God has forbidden or by failing to do to them or for them what God has commanded (Matthew 22:39; James 2:8). The commands do not come from others but from God. Therefore, the sin is first and foremost against Him.

Real power is the Love of God in Christ that He would die and then raise from the dead to validate who He was.

 

[Rodger]

What happens when the big bad devil gathers his massive army against the saints?

Rev. 20:9 which is at the end of the 1000 year rule of Christ we read that.......
"And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them,".

 

[Rodger]

No, but there is something we're all supposed to gain by understanding Heaven saw Him like that when He walked on earth as an ordinary man. Are you waiting to see Him like that only iin the future? Even of John the baptizer Jesus said,

He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light. Jn.5:35 KJV

Does anyone see us like this,

Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Mt.5:14 KJV

miamited,
I know you believe in Jesus. I'm just showing you how the scriptures I'm comparing reveal Gods' truth has been going on from the very beginning.

When Jesus said,

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. Jn.5:24 ESV

The 1st resurrection is real by faith in Him and it's now, not later. That's all.

You said..........
"The 1st resurrection is real by faith in Him and it's now, not later. That's all."

Just so that everyone is one the same page, the 1st Resurrection is in "Phases".

#1 was Jesus Christ Himself (the “first fruits,” 1 Corinthians 15:20),
#2 will be the resurrection of “the dead in Christ” at the Lord’s return (1 Thessalonians 4:16) = Rapture
#3 will be the resurrection of the martyrs at the end of the tribulation (Revelation 20:4).
#4 Old Testament saints will also be raised at the end of the tribulation, and they are also part of the first resurrection.

 

[Rodger]

Yes this is right, but Jesus bore mankinds sins against Himself. They sinned against God on earth. This is why we ask the Lamb for forgiveness.

The Torah teaches individual responsibility to confess and repent to be forgiven through God as a Lamb "Who opened not His mouth" in judgement against sinners.
The unrepentant will face Him in judgement later. The Son allowed Himself to be sinned against without judging them.

I never said that Rodger. You're not listening to what I'm saying. The Son of God bore sins for sure, CONTRARY TO WHAT THE LAW SAYS.

My friend, if Jesus came "in place of" anyone, He came in place of His Father not sinful mankind and this is why we confess and ask Him to forgive us,

I have to admitt that I am confused by your comments. They just do not make sense to me.

Leviticus 4:3 indicated only a blemish-free bull would be acceptable as a sacrificial offering to the Lord.

Only God can grant salvation, yet it is man alone who is guilty and must pay. No animal could truly be a sufficient sacrifice because it is people who are guilty (Hebrews 10:1-4). Man must die for his sin, yet man cannot save himself, only God can.

Jesus came to earth as fully God and fully man (John 1:14; 1 John 4:2). He did not lose nor give up His deity. As such, Jesus is the only sinless man (Hebrews 4:15) — perfectly blemish-free and wholly acceptable to God and able to sit down in the sovereign position at the right hand of God.

 

[GodsGrace]

They get destroyed and will lay in their graves until the second resurrection.

God bless,
Ted

When is the first resurrection??

 

[miamited]

When is the first resurrection??

It begins the 1000 year reign of Christ with the saints, prior to God's final judgment.

God bless.
Ted

 

[Runningman]

I have to admitt that I am confused by your comments. They just do not make sense to me.

Leviticus 4:3 indicated only a blemish-free bull would be acceptable as a sacrificial offering to the Lord.

Only God can grant salvation, yet it is man alone who is guilty and must pay. No animal could truly be a sufficient sacrifice because it is people who are guilty (Hebrews 10:1-4). Man must die for his sin, yet man cannot save himself, only God can.

If an animal can do anything do remove sin, how much more a sinless man? God dying for our sins isn't the idea they were trying to get across. God is immortal and cannot die. It would seem that if God did not die in your theology, which He didn't, then the unfortunate outcome is you would still be in your sins.

Jesus came to earth as fully God and fully man (John 1:14; 1 John 4:2). He did not lose nor give up His deity. As such, Jesus is the only sinless man (Hebrews 4:15) — perfectly blemish-free and wholly acceptable to God and able to sit down in the sovereign position at the right hand of God.

Not exactly. According to Hebrews 5:7, Jesus cried out in tears to God asking to be saved from death, yet he endured the cross anyway. However, God still heard Jesus because of his reverence (his deep respect) for God. So what was Jesus saved from? He was resurrected from death.

Hebrews 5​

7During the days of Jesus’ earthly life, He offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the One who could save Him from death, and He was heard because of His reverence.​

Death held Jesus until God intervened. It will be the same for those who are counted worthy to take part in the resurrection of the dead at the end of this age.

Acts 2​

24But God raised Him from the dead, releasing Him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for Him to be held in its clutches.​

All of this means Jesus isn't God.

 

[miamited]

Hi Runningman

All of this means Jesus isn't God.

I would contend that such an idea is also supported by Luke writing to us in the Acts of the Apostles this:

The God of our fathers raised up Jesus whom you murdered by hanging on a tree.
God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm: 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.'
let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole.

And Paul wrote to us this:

Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead),
And more testimony from Paul on the matter:
that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Now, I proclaim that I don't know the actual relationship between God and Jesus, beyond what they have each one said of the other. God says that Jesus is His Son. Jesus says that God is his Father. I'm good with that. If it must be that a born again believer must believe that Jesus is God, then I shall stand condemned, except that Jesus paid the price for my sin. And the only sin that is unforgiveable is to blaspheme God's Spirit. The Holy Spirit. I'm also pretty confident that if God demand that we believe that His Son is Him, then He would have made that point more clear to us. As it is, it doesn't really seem to be clear at all with all the disagreement on the issue.

I mean no believer denies that Jesus is the Son of God. But many seem to deny that Jesus is God. And I believe that's because it isn't some theological truth that God has made plain, even though the Scriptures declare that God has made such things plain to us.

I believe that this 'Jesus is God' dogma, which I honestly think has it's foundation with the Catholic fellowship, has been adopted and pounded into people for so long that some believe it to be true because denying it makes them anathema to a lot of the 'fellowship of the church'. But is it true or not?

God bless,
Ted

 

[GodsGrace]

It begins the 1000 year reign of Christ with the saints, prior to God's final judgment.

God bless.
Ted

I should have studied some end time stuff.
Too late now,,,no interest.
Thanks!

 

[miamited]

I should have studied some end time stuff.
Too late now,,,no interest.
Thanks!

Hi GodsGrace

And yet you're the one that asked the question.

When is the first resurrection??

How cheeky of you.

God bless,
Ted

 

[journeyman]

They get destroyed and will lay in their graves until the second resurrection.

God bless,
Ted

It has been that way throughout history.

 

[journeyman]

I do not agree in any way.

Agreed in that All sin is ultimatly against God.

1 John 3:4 (ESV)​

"Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness."

And Jesus was sinned against.

Romans 4:15 (ESV)​

"For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression."

Good. Now, how was there "no law"?

We sin against others by doing to them what God has forbidden or by failing to do to them or for them what God has commanded (Matthew 22:39; James 2:8). The commands do not come from others but from God. Therefore, the sin is first and foremost against Him.

That's what I've been saying.

Real power is the Love of God in Christ...

That's what I said.