Struggling at new church

[Testing]

Hi all. I've been out of fellowship for the best part of 20 years but have recently been regularly going to a new church for about 4 months now.

The church is theologically sound, the pastor is energetic and passionate, the church has community programs plus youth group, children's ministry etc.

When I first started fellowship, the senior pastor introduced himself to me and we spoke a little bit. He seemed genuine and interested in me as a person. After that, I noticed he never engaged with me anymore. A couple of times I've said hello and he's said hello and how are you? in return with no further conversation. His wife I have never spoken to at all.

I had a nice conversation in the beginning with the youth pastor. And same thing. No more conversations afterwards. I tried to engage with him recently and he just mumbled a few words and then walked away. I could clearly see by his facial expressions he was not interested in any dialogue with me. Ditto for the senior pastor. Whenever I say hello I see he's not interested in conversing with me and he just is being polite.

I am greatly discouraged and disheartened. The church is solid in every way but I have no engagement whatsoever with the pastors. Even worse I feel ignored. This is the first Sunday coming up that I want to have a break and not attend. I don't feel I'm of any value and am now considering trying another church fellowship. There is no way I consider these pastors shepherds to me in any way as I have no interactions with them. There are pastors to their church, but not a shepherd or influence to me personally.

I was hoping to get other people's thoughts and opinions. Thank you.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I dunno

I think Jesus Christ warns of this in scripture. I don’t know how to deal with it in my own life but I’m praying that you can find a way to move forward or perhaps move on if necessary.

 

[Tenchi]

This is a small church. I see they pastors talking to others after church regularly. And it happened again this Sunday. The pastor's wife walked past me as she looked at me.

Yes. And? Does God give you the liberty to take up offense toward her for such a reason? No. He doesn't. Instead, God calls you to love her - and all the family of God - even (and especially) when it costs you, even when it's a one-sided, one-way thing, just like it was for Christ when he died for those who hated him. This is, admittedly, a supernatural kind of love; you won't ever be able to love like this apart from God, apart from the empowering life of the Holy Spirit flowing unhindered in you. But this love is present within you in the Person of the Spirit, available to you always as you draw near to God in submission and faith. Why, then, are you angered by the pastor's wife? Why aren't you extending the patient, gentle, humble love of God to her? Why the resentment toward the pastor? Why don't you choose instead to be God's hands and heart to him, a loving, encouraging brother working alongside him?

1 John 4:7-11
7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.
9 By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him.
10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.

This isn't just for your pastor but for you, too. If you are God's child, you are as much under the divine command of this passage as your pastor is.

I wouldn't expect the same thing at John MacArthur's church as it's much larger. It's so frustrating, I come home every week angry. I feel so excluded.

I recently wrote up a membership manual for our church. I think the following bit from the manual addresses what you've written here very well:

"The Church is not perfect; in fact, it is often quite the opposite. Even in the Early Church, there were false teachers and brethren, fractious, carnal “babes in Christ,” legalistic Christians, and entire communities of believers that had grown spiritually complacent, lukewarm toward God and in danger of collapse (Jude 1:1-16; 2 Peter 2; 1 Corinthians 3:1-4, 5, 6, 11; Galatians 3:1-14, Revelation 2-3). Although in His word, God has set out an ideal toward which He intends His children to move individually and corporately, the reality is that the Church is filled with people at widely-varying stages of spiritual growth, often including those who are not yet spiritually born-again.

As a result, instead of a welcoming, warm, loving group of Christ-followers, a local community of Christians often is a “mixed bag” of people, some of whom may present a distinct challenge, rather than a support, to one’s pursuit of Christ. Instead of warm hugs and joyful fellowship, the individual believer may encounter sharp elbows and cold shoulders; instead of lives open and welcoming, there may be cliques, and a profound resistance to anything more than Sunday morning courtesies and friendly small-talk. It is vital, then, that a believer who wants to take up formal membership in any local community of believers does so from a relationship with God that will enable them to endure a less-than-perfect experience of their fellow believers with Christ-like equanimity, stability and self-sacrificing love.

Formal membership at MABC, then, is an invitation to embrace the challenges of an imperfect community of Christ-followers and, in the power of the Holy Spirit, to act as God’s hands and heart to it, loving the often carnal, cold, clamoring Bride of Christ, even when it costs to do so."

Pastors are not immune from insecurities, ministry myopia, cliqueishness, even vanity; they are in a continuum of growth just like the rest of us, fallible and in need of the support of the Body of Believers. They, too, need to be edified, exhorted and sometimes challenged by fellow believers (particularly those who know them best, which, apart from their own families, will be those to whom they minister as spiritual overseers). Too often, though, folks want to put the pastor up on a pedestal, not to extol him, actually, but to make it easier to criticize him. The pastor should be x,y,z; the pastor should be doing a,b,c; the pastor should know better - basically, the pastor should meet all my expectations of him, reasonable or not. Of course, these same folk are careful not to have anything like the same standard for themselves...

A few thoughts on bitterness and anger:

James 1:19-20
19 Know this, my beloved brothers: let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger;
20 for the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God.

Ephesians 4:31-32
31 Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.
32 Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.

Matthew 18:15
15 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone...

You can be sure the Holy Spirit is not in control of you, that you are not "walking in the Spirit," when anger and resentment toward the pastor and his wife are the fruit of your time at church. When the Spirit is in control of you, as he ought always to be, the fruit of his control will be love, joy, peace, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, etc. (Galatians 5:22-23). What does it say about what's going on between you and God that resentment and anger, not love and peace, are characterizing your feelings about the pastor and his wife?

 

[Testing]

Yes. And? Does God give you the liberty to take up offense toward her for such a reason? No. He doesn't. Instead, God calls you to love her - and all the family of God - even (and especially) when it costs you, even when it's a one-sided, one-way thing, just like it was for Christ when he died for those who hated him. This is, admittedly, a supernatural kind of love; you won't ever be able to love like this apart from God, apart from the empowering life of the Holy Spirit flowing unhindered in you. But this love is present within you in the Person of the Spirit, available to you always as you draw near to God in submission and faith. Why, then, are you angered by the pastor's wife? Why aren't you extending the patient, gentle, humble love of God to her? Why the resentment toward the pastor? Why don't you choose instead to be God's hands and heart to him, a loving, encouraging brother working alongside him?

1 John 4:7-11
7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.
9 By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him.
10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.

This isn't just for your pastor but for you, too. If you are God's child, you are as much under the divine command of this passage as your pastor is.



I recently wrote up a membership manual for our church. I think the following bit from the manual addresses what you've written here very well:

"The Church is not perfect; in fact, it is often quite the opposite. Even in the Early Church, there were false teachers and brethren, fractious, carnal “babes in Christ,” legalistic Christians, and entire communities of believers that had grown spiritually complacent, lukewarm toward God and in danger of collapse (Jude 1:1-16; 2 Peter 2; 1 Corinthians 3:1-4, 5, 6, 11; Galatians 3:1-14, Revelation 2-3). Although in His word, God has set out an ideal toward which He intends His children to move individually and corporately, the reality is that the Church is filled with people at widely-varying stages of spiritual growth, often including those who are not yet spiritually born-again.

As a result, instead of a welcoming, warm, loving group of Christ-followers, a local community of Christians often is a “mixed bag” of people, some of whom may present a distinct challenge, rather than a support, to one’s pursuit of Christ. Instead of warm hugs and joyful fellowship, the individual believer may encounter sharp elbows and cold shoulders; instead of lives open and welcoming, there may be cliques, and a profound resistance to anything more than Sunday morning courtesies and friendly small-talk. It is vital, then, that a believer who wants to take up formal membership in any local community of believers does so from a relationship with God that will enable them to endure a less-than-perfect experience of their fellow believers with Christ-like equanimity, stability and self-sacrificing love.

Formal membership at MABC, then, is an invitation to embrace the challenges of an imperfect community of Christ-followers and, in the power of the Holy Spirit, to act as God’s hands and heart to it, loving the often carnal, cold, clamoring Bride of Christ, even when it costs to do so."

Pastors are not immune from insecurities, ministry myopia, cliqueishness, even vanity; they are in a continuum of growth just like the rest of us, fallible and in need of the support of the Body of Believers. They, too, need to be edified, exhorted and sometimes challenged by fellow believers (particularly those who know them best, which, apart from their own families, will be those to whom they minister as spiritual overseers). Too often, though, folks want to put the pastor up on a pedestal, not to extol him, actually, but to make it easier to criticize him. The pastor should be x,y,z; the pastor should be doing a,b,c; the pastor should know better - basically, the pastor should meet all my expectations of him, reasonable or not. Of course, these same folk are careful not to have anything like the same standard for themselves...

A few thoughts on bitterness and anger:

James 1:19-20
19 Know this, my beloved brothers: let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger;
20 for the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God.

Ephesians 4:31-32
31 Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.
32 Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.

Matthew 18:15
15 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone...

You can be sure the Holy Spirit is not in control of you, that you are not "walking in the Spirit," when anger and resentment toward the pastor and his wife are the fruit of your time at church. When the Spirit is in control of you, as he ought always to be, the fruit of his control will be love, joy, peace, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, etc. (Galatians 5:22-23). What does it say about what's going on between you and God that resentment and anger, not love and peace, are characterizing your feelings about the pastor and his wife?

I suppose you're right. Just put up with and continue on. It's just such a culture shock as my last two churches I didn't experience any of this.

Everything you said I can understand pertaining to those who are supposed to be mature in the faith, (please remember I've been mostly out of regular, consistent fellowship for the last 20 years), but unfortunately what you say you can't expect from people who are struggling, doubting, weak in the faith, not committed to regular fellowship etc. When such people come to church and experience what I've been saying, they quickly get disheartened and leave.

I say again. Church leaders need to be better than the manual you wrote that you stated. You can't say to a weak, immature, struggling Christian to get over it.

You mentioned in your manual that the church contains people "at different stages". That's all good and well. I do expect that the pastors and their wives to be at a more mature, less clique stage. That's a given I think.

I mean come on. Really? Telling me about different stages when referring to the church leaders. Just look at the scriptures and what Paul had to say about qualifications of a leader.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hi all. I've been out of fellowship for the best part of 20 years but have recently been regularly going to a new church for about 4 months now.

The church is theologically sound, the pastor is energetic and passionate, the church has community programs plus youth group, children's ministry etc.

When I first started fellowship, the senior pastor introduced himself to me and we spoke a little bit. He seemed genuine and interested in me as a person. After that, I noticed he never engaged with me anymore. A couple of times I've said hello and he's said hello and how are you? in return with no further conversation. His wife I have never spoken to at all.

I had a nice conversation in the beginning with the youth pastor. And same thing. No more conversations afterwards. I tried to engage with him recently and he just mumbled a few words and then walked away. I could clearly see by his facial expressions he was not interested in any dialogue with me. Ditto for the senior pastor. Whenever I say hello I see he's not interested in conversing with me and he just is being polite.

I am greatly discouraged and disheartened. The church is solid in every way but I have no engagement whatsoever with the pastors. Even worse I feel ignored. This is the first Sunday coming up that I want to have a break and not attend. I don't feel I'm of any value and am now considering trying another church fellowship. There is no way I consider these pastors shepherds to me in any way as I have no interactions with them. There are pastors to their church, but not a shepherd or influence to me personally.

I was hoping to get other people's thoughts and opinions. Thank you.

Maybe he is waiting for you to talk to him ?

 

[Testing]

Maybe he is waiting for you to talk to him ?

When you're the pastor of a church, it is more appropriate he approach you to talk to first. And no way on God's green earth am I going up to the pastors wife on my own volition and start talking to her.

 

[Hopeful 2]

When you're the pastor of a church, it is more appropriate he approach you to talk to first.

After being away for 20 years, why do you think that old style engagement is still true ?

And no way on God's green earth am I going up to the pastors wife on my own volition and start talking to her.

Agreed.
Have you talked with any of the other members of the church ?

 

[Testing]

After being away for 20 years, why do you think that old style engagement is still true ?

Agreed.
Have you talked with any of the other members of the church ?

Yes. I do engage with some others in the church. And why do you think that "old style engagement" as you put it, is not relevant anymore? Fellowship and conversing is always relevant.

 

[Tenchi]

When such people come to church and experience what I've been saying, they quickly get disheartened and leave.

Yes, they do. But if they're truly one of God's children, His Spirit will be working in them, convicting them of the foolishness of this behavior and urging them to connect again to the Body of Christ, the Church.

I say again. Church leaders need to be better than the manual you wrote that you stated. You can't say to a weak, immature, struggling Christian to get over it.

I didn't say this in the excerpt from the manual.

Yes, church leaders are to be more mature. Absolutely. But this isn't always the case for various reasons. And when it isn't, God doesn't give any of His children - immature or mature - the freedom to act selfishly and resentfully.

You mentioned in your manual that the church contains people "at different stages". That's all good and well. I do expect that the pastors and their wives to be at a more mature, less clique stage. That's a given I think.

Yes, ideally. But pastors are not all-perfected saints, though often they are expected to be. And whether they are properly mature spiritually or not, we are to walk in love and holiness before God, showing even the disappointing fellow believer grace, patience and kindness, not anger and resentment. Be the person you'd like your pastor to be.

I mean come on. Really? Telling me about different stages when referring to the church leaders. Just look at the scriptures and what Paul had to say about qualifications of a leader.

I have. Many times. But pointing at those standards and saying your pastor doesn't meet them well, doesn't relieve you of God's commands to all of His children in the verses I cited to you in my last post. However poorly your pastor is acting, you are STILL commanded by God to be "kind, tenderhearted, and forgiving."

 

[Testing]

Thank you to everyone who took the time to reply to me. The next Sunday I will go to a church that my late father was a part of. I know the minister personally and I'm very fond of him. He does a food based community outreach and works very hard and faithfully and I have enormous respect for him. In fact, he performed as minister for my late father's funeral.

I would normally go to his church but unfortunately it's a Pentecostal church which I fell out of 20 years ago. I can't tolerate the long service, half a dozen songs, the tongues which to me are questionable, the so called slain in the spirit etc. But the pastor is an absolute gem who I have nothing but respect for. So I'll attend his church next week in lieu of mine. After that I'll take a week off and not attend any church on Sunday. That'll give me two weeks break from my own church and then I'll pick myself up and go back to mine again.

Wish me luck!

 

[Hopeful 2]

Yes. I do engage with some others in the church. And why do you think that "old style engagement" as you put it, is not relevant anymore? Fellowship and conversing is always relevant.

I was alluding to the twenty years since your last presence at a church.
Sometimes things change for the better.
A preacher is just a man, no different that you or I, so go and find out what his hobbies and such are.
Build on that, and add as much as you take.

 

[Testing]

I was alluding to the twenty years since your last presence at a church.
Sometimes things change for the better.
A preacher is just a man, no different that you or I, so go and find out what his hobbies and such are.
Build on that, and add as much as you take.

I won't be finding out his hobbies and interests. Not interested. For goodness sakes, I'm there at his church every week, I'm always up for some fellowship. So if if he wants to talk to me he can. Once again, I think church leaders circulating around the congregation have the responsibility to talk to everyone. When new people come in, surely leaders should be engaging. That's a given. As if I'm going now to be digging around and exploring his personal life and hobbies. He needs to talk to me and engage for that to happen.

 

[jasonc]

This is a small church. I see they pastors talking to others after church regularly. And it happened again this Sunday. The pastor's wife walked past me as she looked at me.

I wouldn't expect the same thing at John MacArthur's church as it's much larger. It's so frustrating, I come home every week angry. I feel so excluded.

I could add more but this sounds like something I do but realize that it's not about me I the church though my needs should be important to the local body .

A pastor or elder can't possibly be all to all. In my case my PTSD with depression will lead me to isolate . I have to fight that . I hate getting into hobbies just to have friends . Since Im into history mostly few appreciate that .my pastor does and sends me photos .he will randomly send me homes that are being demolished and I at times will give the owners name and my stories of them .other times it's old military bases and or Florida history .a few times it's been churches he has linked up with .a hundred years old Lutheran church .I told him the name from the old photos

 

[Testing]

A pastor or elder can't possibly be all to all.

I'm not asking anything out of the ordinary and what is common decency. I think it's appalling that after 4 months I've hardly had any meaningful contact with the church leaders and their wives and none at all with some of them. A little bit of even circulation around the congregation I don't think is too much to ask of the senior leaders and their wives. It's only a small church, not many people to get through if you really want.

Seriously, if I'm determined to stay committed to fellowship but am struggling with issues like this, how hard do you think it is for those on the fence?

 

[WIP]

For goodness sakes, I'm there at his church every week, I

His church? Me thinks this is part of your problem.

 

[Testing]

His church? Me thinks this is part of your problem.

You know what I mean. He doesn't own the church, I know that very well. But he's the pastor of that church.

 

[jasonc]

I'm not asking anything out of the ordinary and what is common decency. I think it's appalling that after 4 months I've hardly had any meaningful contact with the church leaders and their wives and none at all with some of them. A little bit of even circulation around the congregation I don't think is too much to ask of the senior leaders and their wives. It's only a small church, not many people to get through if you really want.

Seriously, if I'm determined to stay committed to fellowship but am struggling with issues like this, how hard do you think it is for those on the fence?

One person ,80 or more people .that's about a small company in the army .the 1sg didn't know his men like you claim .

He couldn't as he had to delegate responsibility and ensure the co orders were carried out and mentor ncos and support the platoon sgts in their missions .joe private he knew of but he wasn't gonna know every detail .

Churches often have that level of things they need .that's tenchis point . I just think you were unfair .I have been guilty of expecting the elders to be a bit more aware of my problem but I check that with them have lives and have prayed and shown concern . My navel gazing isn't gonna change my job problem and I find that serving others helps alleviate the stress .

That said I do need to take my advise on that more .

 

[jasonc]

I won't be finding out his hobbies and interests. Not interested. For goodness sakes, I'm there at his church every week, I'm always up for some fellowship. So if if he wants to talk to me he can. Once again, I think church leaders circulating around the congregation have the responsibility to talk to everyone. When new people come in, surely leaders should be engaging. That's a given. As if I'm going now to be digging around and exploring his personal life and hobbies. He needs to talk to me and engage for that to happen.

As an introvert .I find small talk bothering .I can't expect say the elder to simply greet me and dive into a deep topic and he greet others and have the time .

If say the other elder who is an old farmer wanted to discuss ford tractors I would but again that with me won't be a simply small talk .I give them that .

 

[Testing]

One person ,80 or more people .that's about a small company in the army .the 1sg didn't know his men like you claim .

He couldn't as he had to delegate responsibility and ensure the co orders were carried out and mentor ncos and support the platoon sgts in their missions .joe private he knew of but he wasn't gonna know every detail .

Churches often have that level of things they need .that's tenchis point . I just think you were unfair .I have been guilty of expecting the elders to be a bit more aware of my problem but I check that with them have lives and have prayed and shown concern . My navel gazing isn't gonna change my job problem and I find that serving others helps alleviate the stress .

That said I do need to take my advise on that more .

It's fine, I'm not going anywhere. But it's not right, I don't care what you or anyone says. If you can't make meaningful fellowship with someone in 4 months and absolutely zero contact from your wife in that time, from a small church only, it's not good. I don't care what you or anyone says.

And you wonder why gen Z has mostly abandoned faith. This old style thinking that church is just what you do doesn't cut it anymore these days. That's how I was raised and that's why I have returned. But it doesn't work on today's youth.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I’m personally inclined to say maybe try an old church you were part if before. Real Christian people are found in all sort of denominations in all sorts of areas. It’s kind of difficult for me to imagine a pastor being that cold and aloof in a smaller church and I don’t think I’d handle it well personally.

 

[Testing]

I’m personally inclined to say maybe try an old church you were part if before. Real Christian people are found in all sort of denominations in all sorts of areas. It’s kind of difficult for me to imagine a pastor being that cold and aloof in a smaller church and I don’t think I’d handle it well personally.

Thanks you for saying that. I'm fed up with everyone trying to convince me there's nothing wrong. It's only a small church, not John MacArthur's or larger church. There only a few dozen adults each service. You should circulate evenly and you shouldn't look at someone in the eye and walk past them as happened to me last Sunday. It's frustrating after being out of fellowship for 20 years and I'm frustrated all over again.

As I said before, so many believers today are opting out of church and declaring themselves "spiritual" instead or having their own "personal relationship" with God outside of common fellowship. Churches, members and leaders and spouses need to do better. Especially in small churches.