The difference between the rapture and the second coming

[farouk]

Paul quoted Isaiah 45 which is about the saved. It says that every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that in the Lord he has righteousness (Isaiah 45:23-24). It is every knee and every tongue of the saved that is in view.

Paul said that the LAST enemy is to be destroyed at the resurrection. This means that all other enemies will have been destroyed BEFORE the resurrection. Therefore, the judgment of the nations will have occurred BEFORE the resurrection.

I struggle with the idea that those under earth are saved that will be compelled to confess Jesus's Lordship, as those in heaven are saved. Not all on earth are saved, either, but every tongue will have to confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

[veryberry]

I struggle with the idea that those under earth are saved that will be compelled to confess Jesus's Lordship, as those in heaven are saved. Not all on earth are saved, either, but every tongue will have to confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

That is a confession that even Satan will have to confess. They will not be saved. They are forced to confess it.

 

[farouk]

That is a confession that even Satan will have to confess. They will not be saved. They are forced to confess it.

I agree.

 

[Eugene]

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

Heb 2:8 . . But now we see not yet all things put under him. When is it to occur?

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

I believe people continue to die, and all any have to do is observe most funerals to see death’s sting.

 

[JLB]

sFirst, this is NOT a new testament scripture. I asked for scriptures from the new testament.

Second, Zechariah 14 is NOT a Messianic prophecy. It is about and old testament coming of YHWH. See my post #78 yesterday inwhich I said,

Zechariah 14 is about and old testament coming of YHWH. It is NOT Messianic at all. It is anthropomorphism. The exact same language is used whem YHWH came to Mt. Sinai to give the law. It says that He came to Mt. Sinai and that the people "sat at His feet."

What is your proof from the context that Zechariah 14 is Messianic?
First, where does it say that the throne is on the earth? The Father also sits on a throne. Yet I see nobody saying that He sits on a throne on the earth. I asked for an EXPLICIT statement which says that the throne is on the earth.

Second, Paul said that when Christ comes He must destroy the LAST enemy which is death. This means that the judgment of the nations will have already happened.

Furthermore, Jesus was a son of Jeconiah. No son of Jeconiah may sit on the earthly throne. The curse has NOT been reversed.

The words of the scripture itself.

2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. 4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. 5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:2-5

Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You...

This is a reference to the Second Coming Of Jesus Christ with His saints.

As we see from The Book of revelation -

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Revelation 19:11-14

and again -

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 1 Thessalonians 4:14

and again -

27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:27


These scriptures all teach us that Jesus Christ will come from heaven with His saints to earth.



Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You. Zechariah 14

And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Revelation 19

even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 1 Thessalonians 4:14

And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:27


These New Testament scriptures foretell the Coming of the Lord with His saints, just as the Old testament scriptures foretell the same event.

Zechariah is a very Messianic Prophetic book.

It doesn't get anymore messianic than this -


"And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Zechariah 12:10


Jesus Christ will return to Jerusalem and reign and rule from His Throne, as a King in the lineage of David. explicitly!!!!!


JLB

 

[reba]

pull it back to topic guys

 

[Deborah13]

Sandy, Reba, and Eugene gave likes in this thread. I can't give a like in this thread?

 

[Deborah13]

I am not real big on posting in rapture threads but here goes. At one time I was very confused about the rapture. There are so many theories about it. We have the pre-trib, mid-trib, and post-trib rapturests. We have so many theories about when the rapture will happen. I asked the Lord one time to clarify for me when the rapture would happen. He told me "If you are about the father's business, what difference does it make?" You could be so right about it, but then what if you are wrong? Don't be standing around waiting for the rapture to occur, be about serving the Lord.

Sandy I really liked this post!

 

[reba]

hmmm might be a mod thing some of this tech stuff is way over my head

 

[Deborah13]

God cursed Jeconiah


The curse was that the sons of Jeconiah could not sit on the throne of David in Judah. Jesus sits on the throne of David in heaven (Acts 2:29-35). God exalted David's throne to heaven.

if this is off topic feel free to just delete it. I think...it is?

Wasn't this line from Solomon? Jesus' genealogy on that side was through His step-father Joseph, correct?
But on Mary's side He is from the line of David through Nathan, Solomon's older brother, which was not effected by this curse. I think Nathan or one of his decedents could have been king?
Can you add to this with what you mean?

 

[thethinker]

The words of the scripture itself.

2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. 4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. 5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:2-5

Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You...

This is NOT proof that Zechariah 14 is Messianic. The LORD came to Mt. Sinai with His saints (Exodus 19; Deuterronomy 33). It talks about His "right hand" and the people sitting at His "feet." Zechariah 14 is about an old testament coming of YHWH. This is substantiated by the fact that the old covenant is still in effect. Your interpretation would require that the old covenant be re-instituted. But Paul forbade such a thing.

I need an EXPLICIT reference to the Messiah Himself. At best you prove only an old testament bodily manifestation of YHWH.

 

[Sandy Zalecki]

Sandy, Reba, and Eugene gave likes in this thread. I can't give a like in this thread?

Just gave you a like on this post. I don't know what is happening. I'm not a tech person.

 

[reba]

Sandy I really liked this post!

For me i "like" this way of complementing anothers posts. Seems more personal less automatic.

 

[Sandy Zalecki]

For me i "like" this way of complementing anothers posts. Seems more personal less automatic.

I like to like posts because that's what I like to do. I guess I'm just used to that because I'm a facebook addict.

 

[reba]

Hmm back to topic?
The difference between the rapture and the second coming.

Threads can take a turn and they sorta have a life of there own... then i have to come and redirect them back to topic after i have been a good part of pulling them off topic sneak this in I dont like FB

 

[Sandy Zalecki]

Hmm back to topic?
The difference between the rapture and the second coming.

Threads can take a turn and they sorta have a life of there own... then i have to come and redirect them back to topic after i have been a good part of pulling them off topic sneak this in I dont like FB

Yes, you are correct, we took this off topic.

 

[thethinker]

if this is off topic feel free to just delete it. I think...it is?

Wasn't this line from Solomon? Jesus' genealogy on that side was through His step-father Joseph, correct?
But on Mary's side He is from the line of David through Nathan, Solomon's older brother, which was not effected by this curse. I think Nathan or one of his decedents could have been king?
Can you add to this with what you mean?

Jesus' legal status was through Joseph. Therefore, the curse applied to Jesus. He could NOT sit on the throne of David in Judea. But He did ascend to the throne of David in heaven (Acts 2:29-36). God exalted the throne of David to heaven as promised.

29 “Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, 31 he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. 33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. 34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says,
“‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at my right hand,
35 until I make your enemies your footstool.”’ ESV

 

[Deborah13]

Jesus' legal status was through Joseph. Therefore, the curse applied to Jesus. He could NOT sit on the throne of David in Judea. But He did ascend to the throne of David in heaven (Acts 2:29-36). God exalted the throne of David to heaven as promised.

29 “Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, 31 he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. 33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. 34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says,
“‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at my right hand,
35 until I make your enemies your footstool.”’ ESV

Hmm...I had never thought about it this way. It's very interesting and effects the way the Jews believe about the Messiah, who they thought and still are waiting for would be, in terms of Kingship.
Sorry, I know kinda' what I am thinking but can't put it in words yet.

Thanks for your reply. I'm just going to have to pray and read for a clear picture. And your post reminded me about another post I was going to make about Psalms 110.

 

[JLB]

Hmm...I had never thought about it this way. It's very interesting and effects the way the Jews believe about the Messiah, who they thought and still are waiting for would be, in terms of Kingship.
Sorry, I know kinda' what I am thinking but can't put it in words yet.

Thanks for your reply. I'm just going to have to pray and read for a clear picture. And your post reminded me about another post I was going to make about Psalms 110.

Jesus Christ is of the line of David and will sit on the Throne of that lineage on Earth, as He reigns and rules from Earth, at His Coming.

He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. Luke 1:32

9 Then those who went before and those who followed cried out, saying: "Hosanna! 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!' 10 Blessed is the kingdom of our father David That comes in the name of the Lord! Hosanna in the highest!" Mark 11:9-10

Hosanna was a Messianic term that referenced YHWH.

1 There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse, And a Branch shall grow out of his roots. 2 The Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him, The Spirit of wisdom and understanding, The Spirit of counsel and might, The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord. 3 His delight is in the fear of the Lord, And He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes, Nor decide by the hearing of His ears; 4 But with righteousness He shall judge the poor, And decide with equity for the meek of the earth; He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked. 5 Righteousness shall be the belt of His loins, And faithfulness the belt of His waist. Isaiah 11:1-5

Jesse was Davids father.

Deborah, please don't listen to the nonsense of everyone who blows through here with some strange doctrine.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Jesus Christ is of the line of David and will sit on the Throne of that lineage on Earth, as He reigns and rules from Earth, at His Coming.

He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. Luke 1:32

9 Then those who went before and those who followed cried out, saying: "Hosanna! 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!' 10 Blessed is the kingdom of our father David That comes in the name of the Lord! Hosanna in the highest!" Mark 11:9-10

Hosanna was a Messianic term that referenced YHWH.

1 There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse, And a Branch shall grow out of his roots. 2 The Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him, The Spirit of wisdom and understanding, The Spirit of counsel and might, The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord. 3 His delight is in the fear of the Lord, And He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes, Nor decide by the hearing of His ears; 4 But with righteousness He shall judge the poor, And decide with equity for the meek of the earth; He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked. 5 Righteousness shall be the belt of His loins, And faithfulness the belt of His waist. Isaiah 11:1-5

Jesse was Davids father.

Deborah, please don't listen to the nonsense of everyone who blows through here with some strange doctrine.


JLB

Thanks JLB, I do appreciate your concern and taking the time to speak it and share. God bless you, friend.
But I'm not sure just what you are concerned about. I do believe that Jesus is from the line of David, thus Jesse of coarse. I believe He has every right to the throne, He must or the Father would not have given it to Him.

I believe that the scriptures you posted were fulfilled when Jesus came the first time, I don't see them as prophecies of the Second Coming. Don't you?