EricTheBaptist
Member
Yes they do come from Ishmael, but the fact remains they all interpret Abraham's teachings differently.
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Who is Allah?
- Thread starter Drummer4Christ
- Start date
stovebolts
Member
And I would attribute this to the mother, Hagar. Mothers have such an influence on their children, and Hagar would have interpreted her relationship with Abram much differently than Sari would have interpreted her relationship with Abram.
Drummer4Christ
Member
What "teachings" of Abraham?
Abraham banished Ishmael & Hagar. How else would interpret that?
EricTheBaptist
Member
Too much to explain, Google "Teachings of Abraham".
Drummer4Christ
Member
Are Abraham's "teachings" not in the Book of Genesis?
Just give me one example.
Googling "teachings of Abraham" only yields results related to Abraham Hicks & the "law of attraction".
stovebolts
Member
Ummm.... Moses penned Genesis with an Exodus lens.
I assume you do know who Hagar was. As such, she would have fell under Abram's "House".
If you do the math, Noah would have been around when Abram was around. It's not to difficult to think that Abram heard the stories directly from Noah. Abram in turn would have told his "House" the same stories, and the story would have continued through his son's and their sons up until the time when Moses recorded them. Thus, Hagar would have heard the "teachings" of Abram, but when Joseph came along, it was the Ishmaelites who took him to Egypt.
But I degrees, it is not the stories, but the interpretation of said stories. And as far as Hagar, her story of what occurred would be taken from a different perspective than that of Sari.
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jasoncran
Member
the abraham of the quran isnt the same abraham
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Abraham
abraham isnt a prohet.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Index/A/abraham.html
their abraham is all together a different one then we espouse. they may have some parts of him right but we beleive the account from the pentateuch.
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Abraham
abraham isnt a prohet.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Index/A/abraham.html
their abraham is all together a different one then we espouse. they may have some parts of him right but we beleive the account from the pentateuch.
Drummer4Christ
Member
I was not implying that Abraham penned Genesis. I meant that Genesis chronicles Abrahams life which (assumably) would include his "teachings" as well.
What does Paul write in Galatians?:
"Scripture says 'Get rid of the slave woman and her son'"
Are you calling Paul a liar? Or did he simply "misinterpret" Sarah's side of the story?
stovebolts
Member
Thank you for clearing that up.
If I did call Paul a liar, I would fully expect you to correct me. However, I made no mention of Paul, so if you could retract them claws just a tad I'm sure this conversation could be much smoother.
Now then, let us use common sense here ok? The Bible is so much more than merely data points. From this perspective, I utterly fail to see what Paul said about Hagar in terms of what Abram would have taught Hagar.
Going back to the Genesis story, we see that it was Sari who wished Hagar and her son gone for reasons stated. Abram allowed Sari's wish. But before this occurred, did not Abraham have sex with Hagar? And as Sari's handmade, do you not think for a moment that Hagar sat at the feet of Abram many times as he retold his story to his House, since she was part of Abram's "House"?
So you see, Hagar would have heard the creation story just as Noah had passed that story down to his sons, which Abram very well may have sat at Noah's feet and heard directly from Noah. But we see in their tradition, that it was the son who memorized the story verbatim, so that the son could pass on the story. A son would have easily memorized the creation account up to Abram by the age of 8. Off topic, I believe Moses recorded these oral stories.
How old then was Ishmael when he was pushed out with his mother Hagar? More importantly, how well did Hagar know the story?
That was my point my friend. Perhaps you've misunderstood what I was trying to convey.
stovebolts
Member
Hi Jason,
It has been explained to me by level headed, smart people who understand this better than I in the below terms.
When describing an ocean, some say that it is big and blue. Others call it cold and salty.
They are both talking about the same ocean, but they are describing it differently.
To me, this makes sense, and here is why. In Exodus, we see God saying that Abraham did not know God as YHVH, only as El Shaddia. This is not to say that Abram didn't know the name YHVH, but he did not know God as YHVH by way of attributes.
So if Abram were to describe God, he would use different words than Moses, because Moses knew God by way of YHVH. As such, his account of Genesis would have, and does reflect this view. However, Ishmael would not have known of YHVH, because God never expressed himself to them as YHVH, and I think you can come to your own conclusions from there.
I hope this makes sense to you.
Drummer4Christ
Member
Claws retracted
Sorry StoveBolts.
You're right, the Bible is not a set of data points but, an historical narrative. Regardless of what "stories/teachings" Hagar & Ishmael may have heard, the Bible clearly states that they were banished (Genesis), that their descendants did not worship the true God (Psalm 83) and, that they do not share in our spiritual inheritance.
stovebolts
Member
Claws retracted
Sorry StoveBolts.
You're right, the Bible is not a set of data points but, an historical narrative. Regardless of what "stories/teachings" Hagar & Ishmael may have heard, the Bible clearly states that they were banished (Genesis), that their descendants did not worship the true God (Psalm 83) and, that they do not share in our spiritual inheritance.
Thank you for retracting those claws.
Though personally, I view the Bible as much more than a historical narrative, it can be used as such.
But can I ask you a question though? What on God's green earth provoked you? The OP is, "Who is Allah", not "Are the decedents of Ishmael the promised".
Was there something particular that I said to spur such a thought? Honestly, your point wasn't on my radar at all. Of course the promise was through Isaac... That should be a given between Christians.
Drummer4Christ
Member
EricTheBaptist claimed that Allah is God. I asked him to address the points made in the OP, to which he responded by claiming that Islam is an Abrahamic faith interpreted differently by Muslims than the faith of Israel. That's where you came in.
The only provocation came from Eric's argument which (correct me if I'm wrong) you seem to have expounded on, that Allah is God because Hagar & Ishmael were part of Abrahams household at one time.
As outlined in the OP, the attributes of Allah (as described in the Qur'an) are incompatible with the attributes of the God of the Bible.
stovebolts
Member
Thank you for clarifying that. Let me run this by you.
You are talking about the Attributes of God. Do you understand how many names God has ascribed to him based on his attributes? I believe I touched upon this in a reply to Jason.
Exodus 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.
God was not known by his attribute YHVH until the time of Moses. If scripture is true, and I believe it is, then of course the Muslim's would have a different view of God... They would have kept the view they had, as God had not revealed the attribute of mercy until he claimed Israel as his son (Exodus 6:7, Exodus 4:23)
So we would expect a different view from them.
Drummer4Christ
Member
I am in full agreement. What I am saying is that the Qur'an describes Allah as having pride in himself, being deceitful towards mankind, and being a purveyor of death rather than of life. Attributes that are antithetical to Gods true nature, regardless of whether His name was known to those who worshiped & walked with Him prior to Moses on Mt Sinai.
Drummer4Christ
Member
@ StoveBolts
When Mormon's worship "Heavenly Father" are they worshiping the same God of the Bible?
When Jehovah Witnesses worship "Jehovah" are they worshiping the same God of the Bible?
When Mormon's worship "Heavenly Father" are they worshiping the same God of the Bible?
When Jehovah Witnesses worship "Jehovah" are they worshiping the same God of the Bible?
stovebolts
Member
I am not interested in that discussion. But thank you anyway.
stovebolts
Member
hmm... I wonder how the Canaanites would describe YHVH?... It's all perspective IMO.
BTW, thanks for Psalms 83...
With one mind they plot together;
they form an alliance against you—
6 the tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites,
of Moab and the Hagrites,
Do to them as you did to Midian,
as you did to Sisera and Jabin at the river Kishon,
10 who perished at Endor
and became like dung on the ground.
Yeah... ok. Does this make my point? But in case it didn't, they didn't know him by his attribute of mercy (YHVH). Only Justice... So we would expect to see that in thier writings, because that's the perspective they know, because that's the only perspective that's been revealed to them.
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Drummer4Christ
Member
Let's study Psalm 83 in it's entirety:
1 O God, do not remain silent;
do not turn a deaf ear,
do not stand aloof, O God.
2 See how your enemies growl,
how your foes rear their heads.
3 With cunning they conspire against your people;
they plot against those you cherish.
4 “Come,” they say, “let us destroy them as a nation,
so that Israel’s name is remembered no more.”
5 With one mind they plot together;
they form an alliance against you—
6 the tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites
of Moab and the Hagrites
7 Byblos, Ammon and Amalek,
Philistia, with the people of Tyre.
8 Even Assyria has joined them
to reinforce Lot’s descendants.
9 Do to them as you did to Midian,
as you did to Sisera and Jabin at the river Kishon,
10 who perished at Endor
and became like dung on the ground.
11 Make their nobles like Oreb and Zeeb,
all their princes like Zebah and Zalmunna,
12 who said, “Let us take possession
of the pasturelands of God.”
13 Make them like tumbleweed, my God,
like chaff before the wind.
14 As fire consumes the forest
or a flame sets the mountains ablaze,
15 so pursue them with your tempest
and terrify them with your storm.
16 Cover their faces with shame, LORD,
so that they will seek your name.
17 May they ever be ashamed and dismayed;
may they perish in disgrace.
18 Let them know that you, whose name is the LORD—
that you alone are the Most High over all the earth.
What possible teaching of Abraham could the Ismaelites & Hagrites have misinterpreted that they would seek to destroy Israel? (verse 4)
They were not ignorant of God's name, they denied it. (verse 18)