Who is Mystery Babylon ?

[Stormcrow]

I believe according to Mr. Stormcrow the Lake of Fire and destruction of satan and devils events already transpired. Correct that if it's wrong.

Can't refute the evidence presented so change the subject, eh? :toofunny

 

[smaller]

Again, most people will be able to look at the difference between our views and decide for themselves which better reflects serious "theological studies."

I do find it interesting, however, that a recitation of the pertinent O.T. verses to Revelation appear as nothing more to you than "wild strawmen tales."

Interesting, indeed.

Will note two things. I accept every Word of God as fully true and fully applicable. I throw out NONE of it or eradicate on the basis of history in time now finished and no longer valid (your baseline methodology.) I hold Jesus' Teachings on the Law as well as that delivered and taught by the Apostles and that it remains entirely valid against the workings of SIN and LAWLESSNESS, both INTANGIBLE MATTERS until they bubble to the surface in actions, but there nevertheless in ALL.

I also asked you to address your position on the devil.

s

 

[smaller]

Can't refute the evidence presented so change the subject, eh? :toofunny

I have both examined and debated for my own studies, full preterism with much better presenters than yourself.

 

[Stormcrow]

The Word is only understood in historical context.

Let me fix this for you, smaller...

The Word is primarily understood in historical context.

Some however, would rather not have it seen in any context at all. That way, whatever fantasies their mind can devise, they can get others to believe.

It's the way cults are formed.

 

[Stormcrow]

I have both examined and debated for my own studies, full preterism with much better presenters than yourself.

I'm not advocating for a doctrine of any kind. I have presented the unadulterated Word of God.

"Toss it away" as you will.

 

[smaller]

Some however, would rather not have it seen in any context at all. That way, whatever fantasies their mind can devise, they can get others to believe.

If you want to claim that understanding the workings of evil in man are irrelevant views, that would be another false claim and spin on your part.

It's the way cults are formed.

Full preterism is a cult. Many christian sites do not allow those views and they do so for good causes.

s

 

[Stormcrow]

I accept every Word of God as fully true and fully applicable.

Except where voided by doctrine. You keep wanting to make this an argument about doctrine. I have shown you the evidence against your position from the Word of God as you claim is "fully true and fully applicable", yet you reject the Word and sound teaching. Why?

I also asked you to address your position on the devil.

Off-topic and - if you ask again on this thread - I'll take it as harassment and report it as such.

 

[Stormcrow]

Full preterism is a cult.

Again, further proof of my claim that you just want to knock down a doctrine and not deal with the scriptural evidence I presented here:

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=35460&p=602596&viewfull=1#post602596

 

[smaller]

Off-topic and - if you ask again on this thread - I'll take it as harassment and treat it as such.

One might think that where the DEVIL is stated in Revelation in the same line at Babylon it might be VERY relevant. Except when that might not suit your intended spinning.

s

 

[Stormcrow]

One might think that where the DEVIL is stated in Revelation in the same line at Babylon it might be VERY relevant. Except when that might not suit your intended spinning.

s

Reported as a personal attack.

 

[Stormcrow]

Many christian sites do not allow those views and they do so for good causes.

Vic C. agrees with the view that Mystery Babylon is 1st century Jerusalem and I don't think he's a full preterist.

Maybe you could discuss your differences with him for a while.

 

[Vic C.]

Listen people,

We are 28 pages into this subject already and I see how easy it is to stray off topic, but lets not resort to personal stabs at each other.

Also, I don't know why I was dragged into this discussion again. Vic C. agrees with this belief because the Bible seems to be pretty clear on this subject.

Plus, I'm not going to partake in any more "discussions" on this right now.

It's a new year folks. Lets come into it with new attitudes, ok?

One more thing, I'm not a preterist. Actually, there is no name for what I believe and that's a good thing for me because all these names and positions just cause division.

We all must be willing to learn from each other... all of us.

Smaller,

Full preterism is a cult. Many christian sites do not allow those views and they do so for good causes.

While I am aware of some of the other beliefs some preterist carry along with them and don't believe they should be able to promote them, those who are against the basic eschatological views of preterism should be able to refute them. They should be able to do so without resorting to insults or disallowing preterism altogether.

I also honestly and sincerely mean no disrespect to any other End Times beliefs systems, but there are a few other beliefs out there that have taken on a cult-like mentality and we all should be aware of that and be careful not to fall into this mentality.

When will it sink in that no one End Times belief is 100% correct?

 

[smaller]

I have no issues with adult observations of scriptural fact comparisons. I also fully expect that no one will see alike on matters of eschatology. It is scripturally stated that that can not and will not happen.

When those turn into sectarian (full preterism) pump fests wherein they who are challenged roll out the endless litany of logical fallacies I will call them for what they are. Spin doctoring. My observation of those deployments is a fact of observation of the deployments of logical fallacies that run super abundantly in most theological discussions and are one of the causes of difficulties in having reasoned conversations.

There are an abundance of examples of that type of deployment in this thread.

Theology is handled by those in faith using scriptural REASONING COMPARISONS.

A difficult gig, but enjoyable to me.

s

 

[smaller]

Except where voided by doctrine. You keep wanting to make this an argument about doctrine. I have shown you the evidence against your position from the Word of God as you claim is "fully true and fully applicable", yet you reject the Word and sound teaching. Why?

Why is because you take a position and force it to mean only what you think. It's called a logical fallacy because it discounts other potential views. I have put some of the other views on the table and found yours to be missing in action.

FOR EXAMPLE, if we understand that the tempter and his minions were IN the people of Jerusalem and Israel as a nation we will also understand their judgment was from what they carried within them. That would be SIN.

One does not 'see' matters of SIN. It is defined and shown by the scriptures but it is not something that one can put on a scale and measure it for weight by volume.

Even in the 'some standing there' statements who will see the end it can MORE easily be seen as the demonic entities that had captured the hearts of Israel and THOSE were factually the entities that Jesus Himself FOUGHT viciously AGAINST. And YES, they WERE standing there IN THOSE PEOPLE at that time TOO!

If the men who crucified Jesus were demonically enslaved to do so, which all of us should say they were, one might also see that 'every eye will see Him when He returns, even those who pierced Him' as stated in Rev. 1. Why? Because those demonic entities took up perhaps MANY new human habitations since those men died. THEY are still here and will see Him when He returns. And yes, THEY WILL WEEP.

We as believers are STILL engaged in those battles.

Your views on these subjects have discounted those facts entirely and focus only on physicality and fantastical bypassing of one of the most open facts of scripture, FORCES INVISIBLE.

You also believe that the devil and his messengers were sent to the Lake of Fire in 70 a.d. DO YOU NOT? You are 'welcome' to clear this matter up for my understanding of your 'real' position.

s

 

[Stormcrow]

Why is because you take a position and force it to mean only what you think.

So you have a problem with me then. Nice to know.

It's called a logical fallacy because it discounts other potential views.

No. It discounts other views because they are - quite simply - wrong.

I have put some of the other views on the table and found yours to be missing in action.

I have put the scriptures themselves on the table. You keep wanting to discuss doctrine. Sorry. I'm simply not interested in doctrine.

Get back to me when you want to have a real discussion on the Bible and not simply an exchange over "your views."

 

[Stormcrow]

You also believe that the devil and his messengers were sent to the Lake of Fire in 70 a.d. DO YOU NOT? You are 'welcome' to clear this matter up for my understanding of your 'real' position.

Off-topic and reported for harassment.

 

[smaller]

So you have a problem with me then. Nice to know.

I speak to the method, not the man.

No. It discounts other views because they are - quite simply - wrong.

It makes no difference to me what positions you hold SC. I will say that 'factually' there are more possibilities to discourse than what you put on the table.

I have put the scriptures themselves on the table. You keep wanting to discuss doctrine. Sorry. I'm simply not interested in doctrine.

Again, using false measures are ridiculous. I pointed out some pretty solid scriptural facts concerning BABYLON in Revelation.

One, that Babylon is a 'habitation of devils.'

Two, that devils don't inhabit cities, they inhabit PEOPLE.

Three, the women sits upon many waters (not a CITY) and that the waters are also in fact PEOPLE.

Revelation 17:15
And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

And it is also seen to be people in multiple locations, tongues and nations.

None of that points to Jersalem OR Rome.

Get back to me when you want to have a real discussion on the Bible and not simply an exchange over "your views."

I know why you don't want to address the above, but one has only to read the scriptures to see the facts and then match up to what you present. Fact is there is no matchup.

s

 

[smaller]

Off-topic and reported for harassment.

I've already SHOWN WHY this is ON TOPIC. What is your problem?

Could it be that you don't want to discuss your position about THE DEVIL?

StormCROW: OFF TOPIC

Bible:
Revelation 18:2
And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

off topic HOW?

lol

s

 

[Stormcrow]

I've already SHOWN WHY this is ON TOPIC. What is your problem?

Could it be that you don't want to discuss your position about THE DEVIL?

StormCROW: OFF TOPIC

Reported for being off-topic and personal. This subject isn't about ME or what you may perceive to be MY problems!

I'm tired of the personal stuff. Justify yourself to the mods from now on.

 

[smaller]

Reported for being off-topic and personal. This subject isn't about ME or what you may perceive to be MY problems!

I'm tired of the personal stuff. Justify yourself to the mods from now on.

The fact is you have also slung a huge amount of personal insult my direction which anyone can see, and that is done exactly to DEFER from the fact that you 'may' not hold an orthodox understanding on Satan and demons, which is ultimately what I'd very much like to see from you.

s