Calvinism vs Arminianism

[beloved57]

That says God had foreknowledge of the Christ going to the Cross as per His Plan of saving mankind, not your silly idea that God APPROVES of rape and murder...

It says God God by His Foreknowledge and predetermined counsel brought about the actions of the men . people who mureded christ..

same truth in acts 4:

27For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

You can deny it till dooms day..its there in scripture..God caused the murder of Jesus christ, and if He caused the greater sin..the less is likewise included..rape and mureder arent as bad and wicked than murdering Gods own son..

 

[francisdesales]

[same truth in acts 4:

27For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

You can deny it till dooms day..its there in scripture..God caused the murder of Jesus christ, and if He caused the greater sin..the less is likewise included..rape and mureder arent as bad and wicked than murdering Gods own son..

Context is key. The Bible also says "there is no God"...

And being let go, they (apostles) went to their own company, and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said unto them. And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou [art] God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is: Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word, By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus. Acts 4:23-30

Clearly, this passage of Scripture is not giving us a teaching on how God COMMANDS murder and rape!!! Crazy talk. The gist of the passage is that despite the chief priests, elders, rulers and other people who refuse to hear the Word, who ACTIVELY try to silence it, God has preordained that the Word would indeed be taught by those whom He had chosen. With "all boldness, they may speak the word..." Despite the kings of the earth gathering together against the Lord - as shown by the crucifixion - God's Word will be spread to mankind. Despite the murder of God's Son, the Word has spread and will spread, even by "signs of wonder..."

This is utterly ridiculous to take this to mean that God ALSO wishes women to be raped, ACTIVELY WILLING it to happen, and greatly desire that men kill each other - I guess, for His amusement? This is just sickening.

Context is key. And the rest of Scriptures do not allow such a reading.

Try to think for a second. Would God make a Commandent - THOU SHALL NOT KILL - and then ACTIVELY MAKE MEN KILL????

Ridiculous. You have been hoodwinked.

 

[duval]

I shutter as I write, but once again I find myself agreeing with Francis.

 

[Joshua]

I have already posted these on another tread... but I'll ask again anyway.

1.)How does predestination acount for sin? Do I not have any control over my actions?

2.)How do we know who "Gods predestinated children" are? Do I have to be told? And...if I'm predestinated can live however I like without concern for my eternal soul?

 

[Gabe]

You can deny it till dooms day..its there in scripture..

...and you can ignore the many counter-arguments till dooms day...its also there in scripture.

 

[beloved57]

You can deny it till dooms day..its there in scripture..

...and you can ignore the many counter-arguments till dooms day...its also there in scripture.

The counter arguments are just human reason without understanding scripture..

 

[beloved57]

Clearly, this passage of Scripture is not giving us a teaching on how God COMMANDS murder and rape!!! Crazy talk

acts 4:

26The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.

27For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Now..was this a murder ?

acts 3:

14But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;

15And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

Killed means murdered..ex 20:

13Thou shalt not kill.

God determined that those men kill mureder Jesus christ..you can deny it all you want, I will keep it before you..

 

[beloved57]

Would God make a Commandent - THOU SHALL NOT KILL - and then ACTIVELY MAKE MEN KILL????

Yes..in fact to hate is as murder says the scripture 1jn 3:

15Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

God turns hearts to hate as well ps 105:

25He turned their heart to hate his people, to deal subtilly with his servants.

Now, go ahead and deny more scripture truth..

 

[francisdesales]

Would God make a Commandent - THOU SHALL NOT KILL - and then ACTIVELY MAKE MEN KILL????

Yes..in fact to hate is as murder says the scripture 1jn 3:

15Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

God does not make a brother hate someone. Man does that himself. Haven't you read Scriptures?

Therefore, in the manner which sin entered into the world by one man, and because of sin, death; and so death passed upon all men in the one in whom all sinned. Romans 5:12

MAN brings sin into the world, not God... What kind of wacko theology do you subscribe to?

God turns hearts to hate as well ps 105:

25He turned their heart to hate his people, to deal subtilly with his servants.

Now, go ahead and deny more scripture truth..

I suppose God is a murderer in your eyes, then?

See above two quotes you provide. Interesting how you haven't a clue on your train of thought has God as a murderer...

It is becoming apparent to me that you have some serious theological issues.
Sorry, I am going to have to discontinue our "discussion". Even atheists do not make such wacked statements.

 

[guibox]

Guess I will try and address this very old post! :fadein:

However, there is a huge asterisk here. It is not "me" who does these works, it is the Spirit acting in me that does them. Despite the fact that some shamelessly will misrepresent me, and no doubt with intent to distort (and I am, of course, not referring to you guibox), I am simply not advocating a position where man "earns" his justification by moral self-effort.

This argument is usually used by the 'sinless perfectionists' in my own church. The fact is, is that when I turn my head from looking at the sexy girl on the street, it is still my choice, not the Spirit controlling me. A moral atheist can do the same thing. It is these works that are part of the phrase, 'not of works lest any man can boast'. We are not automatons that are automatically 'channeling the Spirit' in our works. We still make the choice to be moral. Paul cannot be talking about our works before we are saved for we are depraved and can only choose God when we are drawn to Him.

Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." 6But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7"or 'Who will descend into the deep?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

I believe that Paul is telling us that, by faith and faith alone, as per Romans 10:8-10, we are indeed transformed so that we can obey and hence be justified as per Romans 2:7

Are you saying that 'by faith and faith alone' is only applicable to setting our sin clock back to zero so we can do good works? My problem is that how can Paul say 'It is not of works lest any man should boast' in speaking of our 'transformation' when we were not able at all (being dead and a slave to sin) to claim anything BEFORE that transformation. This would make Paul's statement pretty redundant. AFTER the fact, we could claim credit for the good things we do. This still doesn't save us.

The problem here is that Paul says 'by faith and faith alone' is how we are saved, not how we are able to justify ourselves through good works. Verse 10 tells us that by believing 'with your heart and are justified' gives power in our decision to 'confess and accept' in verse 9 and know that we are saved. These acts are outside the ability to do good works by the Spirit from there on.

It was explained to me another way, 'Good works do not save us, but not doing good works can make us lost'. That sounds like the same thing to me.

Romans 2 does present some challenges but the alternative is contradicting much of the rest of the bible (Similar to a literal interpretation of Revelation 14:11). I did find this argument which supports what I believe:

Perseverance (5281) (hupomone from hupo = under + meno = abide) means literally abiding under, as one would abide under a heavy load. As an aside he who abides in Christ will be enabled to abide "under" the load.

The subject of this verse is judgment, not justification. Believers who continue in good works will receive rewards in the life to come. Rewards will be based on works accomplished here on earth. A person’s doing good shows that his heart is regenerate. Such a person, redeemed by God, has eternal life. Conversely a person who continually does evil and rejects the truth shows that he is unregenerate, and therefore will be an object of God’s wrath.

Good deeds can not even begin until one is born again! Here Paul speaks of the reward that shall be given to those who persevere in living holy lives. Living a holy life does not save us but does prove we are saved, because the only one who can live a holy life is the one who possesses the indwelling Holy Spirit. - http://www.preceptaustin.org/romans_27-8.htm

and this one:

Rom 2:7 "To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life."

Now at first glance it may look as though these people, who fall into this category in verse 7, earn eternal life through their persistence in doing good.

But remember, whenever we come to the word of God we must view the bible as one book, which was given to many men over a period of many years. The Old and New Testament are God's word. The Old being a revelation of the Messiah to come; the New being the fulfillment of that promise.

God does not contradict Himself, and so we must compare scripture with scripture if we are to fully understand what God has to say on any subject.

So who are these people in verse 7 who apparently are able to work their way to heaven? This group of people are those who have a righteousness which comes from Christ, not themselves. In other words, this group of people are Christians who have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of their sins.

Their good works are not earning them eternal life, but are coming from thankful hearts to Christ who has given them eternal life. And, because they have the Spirit of Christ, they persevere in loving the Lord by doing good and seeking to glorify Him, as they seek the glory, the honor and the immortality He has promised for them.

We see this in what Jesus says in Luk 8:15 "But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop." A crop which is the outworking of our great God, whose hand is upon us to produce the kind of works which lift up the name of Christ - http://www.cyberstreet.com/calvary/rm27-16.htm

I can't believe that it is good works that saves us. We are all sinners and continually fall short of the glory of God. We cannot save ourselves and need Christ's robe of righteousness. Imputation cannot merely be just a safety net for when we fall on our self-salvation trek. That puts our works first and Christ after.

What happens if I sin and die? Are my sins weighed in the balance against my good works? Does not the imputed robe of Christ's perfection not cover those sins?

Are the Catholics correct then?

I just do not see both Christ's imputation of his perfection and our works being simultaneously joint workings of salvation. It is of 'grace through faith lest any man should boast' I can't believe that that just means for being brought out of our depraved state into grace. The bible clearly says that in removing us from our state of sin to grace, and our acceptance of this grace thus makes us saved, then any works outside of ourselves is after the fact, not part of the fact.

 

[Drew]

The fact is, is that when I turn my head from looking at the sexy girl on the street, it is still my choice, not the Spirit controlling me.

How do you know this? And I have never claimed that we need to be "perfect" in order to pass the Romans 2 "good works" judgement. But pass it we must, or we get wrath.

A moral atheist can do the same thing. It is these works that are part of the phrase, 'not of works lest any man can boast'. We are not automatons that are automatically 'channeling the Spirit' in our works

Again, how do you know that the works you do after conversion are not, in any reasonable sense, not the works of the Spirit who has written the "law" on your heart?

I hope to get back to you re the rest of your post....

 

[Drew]

It is these works that are part of the phrase, 'not of works lest any man can boast'.

As I have argued extensively here.......

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=33880

....a proper exegesis of the Ephesians 2 text shows that Paul is not even addressing the issue of "good works" when, in verses 8 and 9, he makes his famous denial of the salvific power of "works". He is instead denying that being Jewish - doing the works (practices) of the Law of Moses - is the grounds for justification. This passage, I contend, has simply been mis-interpreted by zillions of Christians through the ages who see it (that is Eph 2:8-9) as the classic embodiment of the denial of salvation by good works.

So the boast that Paul talks about here - as is the case in respect to a similar passage in Romans 3 - is not the boast of the morally self-righteous.

It is the boast of the Jew , who believes that his membership in the ethnic group known as Israel, gives him an inside track in the purposes of God.

 

[guibox]

It is these works that are part of the phrase, 'not of works lest any man can boast'.

As I have argued extensively here.......

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=33880

....a proper exegesis of the Ephesians 2 text shows that Paul is not even addressing the issue of "good works" when, in verses 8 and 9, he makes his famous denial of the salvific power of "works". He is instead denying that being Jewish - doing the works (practices) of the Law of Moses - is the grounds for justification. This passage, I contend, has simply been mis-interpreted by zillions of Christians through the ages who see it (that is Eph 2:8-9) as the classic embodiment of the denial of salvation by good works.

So the boast that Paul talks about here - as is the case in respect to a similar passage in Romans 3 - is not the boast of the morally self-righteous.

It is the boast of the Jew , who believes that his membership in the ethnic group known as Israel, gives him an inside track in the purposes of God.

But is Paul talking simply about membership? Christ spoke extensively about belief in heritage outside of any works. The Pharisees thought simply because they were the seed of Abraham that that was enough to be in God's good graces. I see a different (or at least more expanded) view here with Paul. The works of the law for the Jew encompass the whole thing. I doubt Paul was simply talking about specific Jewish rituals that set him apart from the Gentile when talking about the law.

 

[Drew]

But is Paul talking simply about membership? Christ spoke extensively about belief in heritage outside of any works. The Pharisees thought simply because they were the seed of Abraham that that was enough to be in God's good graces. I see a different (or at least more expanded) view here with Paul. The works of the law for the Jew encompass the whole thing. I doubt Paul was simply talking about specific Jewish rituals that set him apart from the Gentile when talking about the law.

Paul is indeed really only talking about membership. At the risk of seeming evasive, I believe the referenced thread makes this case, so please consider engaging the content of that argument.

 

[francisdesales]

But is Paul talking simply about membership? Christ spoke extensively about belief in heritage outside of any works. The Pharisees thought simply because they were the seed of Abraham that that was enough to be in God's good graces.

Another partial truth.

The problem is "Christ spoke extensively about belief in heritage outside of ANY works".

That is incorrect. Jesus does NOT attack the works of the Pharisees, but their inner attitude. He tells them they are to INDEED CONTINUE their works, but with the correct frame of mind - one of humility, love for other, and dependence upon God. The issue is not works, but doing them with the mind that now God owes you and you are better than others because of your works, which are merely a product of God working within us.

I see a different (or at least more expanded) view here with Paul. The works of the law for the Jew encompass the whole thing. I doubt Paul was simply talking about specific Jewish rituals that set him apart from the Gentile when talking about the law.

To better understand the reality of the matter, one needs to revisit Acts 15 and see the huge divisive problem of Paul's time - whether one had to become a Jew first to become part of the Church. With this understanding of the internal problem of the Church, the various letters of Paul make more sense as he attacks those Judaizers with this incorrect idea that one had to become Jewish to correctly worship God.

Regards