Calvinism vs Arminianism

[Drew]

However, I still see a contradiction in your posts. You seem to claim that salvation is by faith and works in one breath, but then say that Christ did everything for our salvation already. Either we contribute to salvation by our works or Christ did it. You cannot have it both ways.

Works are fruits of the Spirit, acts done out of love that show where our faith lies and whether it is genuine. However, doing works doesn't make us saved..it SHOWS that we are saved.

I think this one of those rare cases where you and I are going to disagree, well maybe.

I am not speaking for unred here, but rather expressing my view. I think that in a mysterious, yet entirely coherent way, it is really "both" faith and works that justify us. Try as I might, I think Romans 2:7 and 2:13 (not to mention other teachings such as the "sheep and wolves" account late in Matthew) make the following undeniable: our membership in the future, eternal, undying family of God will be determined by what we do - how we live our lives from the point that we have accepted Christ as Lord and Saviour.

However, there is a huge asterisk here. It is not "me" who does these works, it is the Spirit acting in me that does them. Despite the fact that some shamelessly will misrepresent me, and no doubt with intent to distort (and I am, of course, not referring to you guibox), I am simply not advocating a position where man "earns" his justification by moral self-effort. There is, I think, an exceeding subtle ambiguity between my position and that of unred here which I will not address in this post.

I am curious, guibox, how do you read Romans 2:7 and 2:13? They obviously refer to all humanity and not just the Jews. So what do they mean in your mind?

I think it is no accident that Paul essentially quotes from Deuteronomy 30 in Romans 10, verse 6 and following. In Deuteronomy 30, the writer describes how things will be like after covenant renewal - and I take it as clear that Jesus' resurrection effects covenant renewal. Here is the Deuteronomy passage (my underline, of course). If you examine context, you will see that "what I am commanding you today" is all about obeying the commands of God:

Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

Now here is the Romans passage:

Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." 6But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7"or 'Who will descend into the deep?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

I believe that Paul is telling us that, by faith and faith alone, as per Romans 10:8-10, we are indeed transformed so that we can obey and hence be justified as per Romans 2:7:

7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

 

[unred typo]

quote by guibox:
unred, I am not a Calvinist just in case you are wondering.

However, I still see a contradiction in your posts. You seem to claim that salvation is by faith and works in one breath, but then say that Christ did everything for our salvation already. Either we contribute to salvation by our works or Christ did it. You cannot have it both ways.

Works are fruits of the Spirit, acts done out of love that show where our faith lies and whether it is genuine. However, doing works doesn't make us saved..it SHOWS that we are saved.

I see you getting this confused, IMO. Such thinking as you are doing puts us on the same track as the Pharisees and the Catholic Church. Do these good works, works, works, rituals, sacrifices etc, etc..or the grace of God will no longer apply to you.

I see this as a false doctrine that puts man merely on a constant course of striving for unreached perfection to be good enough to save.

You may not be a Calvinist, but you don’t have to be one in order to be totally messed up by their doctrines. I don’t know how to explain this any better than to say our salvation is in following what Jesus taught us, and this way was made possible by his blood, because without the blood, there would not be any way to have our sin forgiven whenever we failed to follow his teaching. The goal is to become like Christ and to be found in him, without sin.

When we obey and love one another as he taught, we ‘crucify the flesh’ and grow in him, or in the new creation that is possible for every person through the Spirit given to us. Any person who is willing to follow in the way Jesus taught has accepted his lordship and the blood of Christ cleanses them from every sin as long as they do what he taught and follow in his ways and remain willing to be lead by him through the Spirit that he has made available to every one of us.

You see me as confused because you have lost sight of what the goal is. You think it is merely to get us ’saved’ when it is to become like Christ. It’s not a presto-chango thing, it’s a daily growth and commitment. You talk about getting saved as if it was a done deal with no future obligations. If you find a person that you love, and you choose to get married to them, does that end your relationship? Does that mean you no longer have to be faithful to them now? Does it prove you are married if you continue to be faithful? No, it proves that you were committed to the person you love when you married them.

When does your marriage commitment end? Do you have to continue to stay on a “constant course of striving for unreached perfection to be good enough†to be married? Sure you do. Is that too much to ask?

Can you be married and not be faithful? Yes, but if you are not faithful to those vows of love, you have broken your commitment to be faithful and if it continues, you may find yourself unmarried as well. So works in Christ are similar to being faithful to your loved one in marriage. If you put other loves ahead of Christ, you have broken your relationship with him and you will only stay saved if you repent and receive forgiveness. Obedience to Christ is essential to being saved, just as obedience to wedding vows are essential to staying married.

Try thinking of being ‘saved’ like being married. You were married on the day you became committed to one person. You will be married until you die unless you break those vows and stop being committed to that person you loved. This is a completely biblical concept. Jesus is going to stay faithful to his vows but are you going to stay faithful to the works of loving and following him? How many times can you be unfaithful and still claim you really love your spouse? How many times do they have to forgive you?

Do you see how works are not just evidence of the fact you are saved but also essential to your salvation? They really are an evidence of your commitment to Christ, but if you are sleeping around with Satan, you really don’t have much of a commitment, do you? Unless you are really committed and just keep unintentionally falling short, you may be repeatedly forgiven, but if your unfaithfulness is really a sign that there is no longer a commitment, you may find yourself in outer darkness.

:o

 

[beloved57]

unred says

I don’t know how to explain this any better than to say our salvation is in following what Jesus taught us,

This is a lie from the pits of hell

Jesus death saves his people period..

 

[unred typo]

quote by beloved57:
unred says

“I don’t know how to explain this any better than to say our salvation is in following what Jesus taught us,â€Â


This is a lie from the pits of hell

Jesus death saves his people period..

Did you read any more of my post than the first sentence and a half? You’re really very pathetic. Your god is more evil and crueler than a legion of demons. Besides that, he is a liar who claims to be love, merciful and no respecter of persons. I pray that the true Jesus has more compassion on you than you have for the rest of the sinners in the world.
:o

 

[beloved57]

Did you read any more of my post than the first sentence and a half?

Did not need to you started it wrong..

 

[Drew]

unred says

I don’t know how to explain this any better than to say our salvation is in following what Jesus taught us,

This is a lie from the pits of hell

Jesus death saves his people period..

Then it would seem that you also declare Paul to be the source of "lies from the pits of hell" when he writes the following in Romans 2:

7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

I ask for a simple answer to the question, unaccompanied your usual bluster of rhetoric. What, exactly, is Paul saying here if not that we are indeed justified by the content of our lives as lived?

Does this mean that the content of our lives as lived has to be the product of us acting as independent agents, climbing our way to Heaven using only our own resources? Does this mean that Jesus' death is not absolutely vital and in any reasonable sense, fully sufficient, for us to be justified as per Romans 2:7?

Of course not, despite the fact that every Calvinist I have encountered on this board has misrepresented the non-Calvinist position as being exactly this.

 

[beloved57]

Then it would seem that you also declare Paul to be the source of "lies from the pits of hell" when he writes the following in Romans 2:

No I declare your understanding faulty and unbiblical..remember, you not paul and have no spiritual discernment as he did..

 

[Drew]

Then it would seem that you also declare Paul to be the source of "lies from the pits of hell" when he writes the following in Romans 2:

No I declare your understanding faulty and unbiblical..remember, you not paul and have no spiritual discernment as he did..

I am surrprised that the moderators are countenancing this. I am not saying that you are being particularly nasty here. But you are really basically trying to make your point by simply declaring those who disagree with you are wrong because we are "spiritually" impaired. Well, let me have a go at this:

There are thousands of pink unicorns running around in the parking lot below me. Any who deny this have no spiritual discernment.

There - that was easy.

You cannot simply dismiss the arguments of other people by dismissing them. You need to actually engage what they are saying.

 

[beloved57]

But you are really basically trying to make your point by simply declaring those who disagree with you are wrong because we are "spiritually" impaired

Yes, only spiritual people can discern spiritual truth, this is biblical 1cor 2:

14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

We will never see eye to eye because of this difference, you percieve scripture from a natural eye, and I from a spiritual eye..no disrespect intened, but just keeping it real..you need verbatim sentences to even attempt to grasp a spiritual concept..thats not bible understanding..bible understanding comes from comparing spiritual principles with other spiriual princples discerned, not verbatimally written..throughout Holy writ..watch:

1 cor 2:

13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

You always in your refutations say show me where the bible says this or that..looking for specific wording..thats not understanding the bible..paul says comparing spiritual things with spiritual..

not words..you argue all the time, you want to see specific words..

notice pauls words..

1 cor 1:

17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect

And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

You see, there is a spiritual element of discerning truth not with words all the time..and thats your argument..where does it say this or where does it say that..you tear down any real basis for bible discussion on a spiritual level..

comaring principals spiritual with spiritual..seacrching the scriptures..notice acts 17:

11These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

These had ready and spiritual minds to search the scriptures, comparing spiritual things with spiritual..

And yes, I see no evidence of you being a spiritual man, you reject too much spiritual truth for that..

Thats not disparging you , i think you are a nice guy, an intelligent guy, but only naturally, not spiritually..

 

[Drew]

We will never see eye to eye because of this difference, you percieve scripture from a natural eye, and I from a spiritual eye..no disrespect intened, but just keeping it real.

Oy vey.

If I were to write a textbook on techniques of improper debate, I would merely insert a bunch of hyper-links to all your posts.

The above is, of course, an instance of the debating error known as poisoning the well. From wikipedia:

Poisoning the well (or attempting to poison the well) is a logical fallacy where adverse information about a target is pre-emptively presented to an audience, with the intention of discrediting or ridiculing everything that the target person is about to say. Poisoning the well is a special case of argumentum ad hominem,...

No person with at least 2 nuerons is going to simply accept your assertion that you see things "spiritually" and that I do not.

 

[Drew]

[You always in your refutations say show me where the bible says this or that..looking for specific wording..thats not understanding the bible..paul says comparing spiritual things with spiritual..

not words..you argue all the time, you want to see specific words..

Its called the authority of the scriptures, my friend. You are essentially claiming "authority of beloved57".....

 

[beloved57]

Its called the authority of the scriptures, my friend. You are essentially claiming "authority of beloved57".....

i am saying God has given me understanding of scripture, and not you..

matt 13:

11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

you are the them who understanding is not given..

but that doesnt prevent me from witnessing to the truth, because you dont understand it..

 

[Drew]

i am saying God has given me understanding of scripture, and not you..

I am actually happy to repost what you are saying here and invite the reader to re-read your own words.

 

[Drew]

i am saying God has given me understanding of scripture, and not you....

Here is a quote from Jacob Bromowski that I think speaks to what you are saying. Here, Bronowski is defending science against those who would attack it as perhaps being "humanistic". But I think that the principle of what he is saying applies equally well to those who would set themselves above others as arbiters of religious truth, those, who in the context of our present discussion, effectively deem themselves above testing their claims against the scripturally grounded arguments of others.

Bronowski delivers this quote on camera (as part of his TV series) as he stoops over a muddy pond in Aushcwitz concentration camp.

It is said that science will dehumanize people and turn them into numbers. That is false, tragically false. Look for yourself. This is the concentration camp and crematorium at Auschwitz, this is where people were turned into numbers. Into this pond were flushed the ashes of four million people. And that was not done by gas. It was done by arrogance. It was done by dogma. It was done by ignorance. When people believe that they have absolute knowledge, with no test in reality, this is how they behave. This is what men do when they aspire to the knowledge of gods.

Science is a very human form of knowledge. We are always at the brink of the known, we always feel forward for what is to be hoped. Every judgment in science stands on the edge or error, and is personal. Science is a tribute to what we can know although we are fallible. In the end the words were said by Oliver Cromwell: "I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken."

... We have to cure ourselves of the itch for absolute knowledge and power. We have to close the distance between the push-button order and the human act. We have to touch people.

 

[beloved57]

i am saying God has given me understanding of scripture, and not you....

Here is a quote from Jacob Bromowski that I think speaks to what you are saying. Here, Bronowski is defending science against those who would attack it as perhaps being "humanistic". But I think that the principle of what he is saying applies equally well to those who would set themselves above others as arbiters of religious truth, those, who in the context of our present discussion, effectively deem themselves above testing their claims against the scripturally grounded arguments of others.

Bronowski delivers this quote on camera (as part of his TV series) as he stoops over a muddy pond in Aushcwitz concentration camp.

It is said that science will dehumanize people and turn them into numbers. That is false, tragically false. Look for yourself. This is the concentration camp and crematorium at Auschwitz, this is where people were turned into numbers. Into this pond were flushed the ashes of four million people. And that was not done by gas. It was done by arrogance. It was done by dogma. It was done by ignorance. When people believe that they have absolute knowledge, with no test in reality, this is how they behave. This is what men do when they aspire to the knowledge of gods.

Science is a very human form of knowledge. We are always at the brink of the known, we always feel forward for what is to be hoped. Every judgment in science stands on the edge or error, and is personal. Science is a tribute to what we can know although we are fallible. In the end the words were said by Oliver Cromwell: "I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken."

... We have to cure ourselves of the itch for absolute knowledge and power. We have to close the distance between the push-button order and the human act. We have to touch people.

Like i said..a man must be born from above to understand scriptures..

 

[francisdesales]

Like i said..a man must be born from above to understand scriptures..

No doubt that explains why you think God is the author of murder and rape...

Do not walk, run, from that extreme Calvinistic view that misinterprets Scritpures so badly...

Regards

 

[beloved57]

No doubt that explains why you think God is the author of murder and rape...

Yes God is The First cause of all evil..even the most wicked act ever occuring under the heavens..The mureder of His own Son..

acts 2:

23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:


acts 4:

27For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

If God ordained the greatest crime, why not the lesser..others rapes and mureders are not as despicable as what God determined against The Lord Jesus christ..

You dont know nothing about the God of the bible..you serve a idol you have made up..

 

[Drew]

acts 4:

27For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

If God ordained the greatest crime, why not the lesser..others rapes and mureders are not as despicable as what God determined against The Lord Jesus christ..

You dont know nothing about the God of the bible..you serve a idol you have made up..

This is from a prayer which, I assert, does suggest that God planned that Jesus would go to the cross. This is extremely thin ground on which to build the position you are advancing. The fact that God planned the cross does not make Him the author of all evil acts.

On precisely what basis do you generalize from the specificities of the plan to send Jesus to the cross to the position that God is the cause of all evil.

I look forward to your usual evasion......

 

[beloved57]

This is from a prayer which, I assert, does suggest that God planned that Jesus would go to the cross

rejecting truth once again..

 

[francisdesales]

Yes God is The First cause of all evil..even the most wicked act ever occuring under the heavens..The mureder of His own Son..

acts 2:

23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

That says God had foreknowledge of the Christ going to the Cross as per His Plan of saving mankind, not your silly idea that God APPROVES of rape and murder...

How can God approve of rape and murder, and then command we NOT do it???

You worship a "god" of contradiction.

Your interpretation of Sacred Scriptures, is, quite frankly, wrong.

Regards