Do Seventh Day Adventists Preach Error?

[Brother Lionel]

Brother Lionel,

First of all, I have 2 main questions :-

1. Are your interpretations of the Bible passages and the teachings as you described above from some SDA / Ellen White’s materials ? … I am asking because I have more than 10 different Study Bibles and none of them interprete the verses the way you do …..

Yes, good question. Actually, there are many interpretations of Revelation which are: the Preterist view, the Historicist view, the Futurist view, the Eastern Orthodox view, the Paschal Liturgical view, the Esoteric view, the Radical Discipleship view, the Spiritual or Idealist view, the Paschal Spiritual View, the Aesthetic and Literary view, The Historical-Critical view, and the Dismissal view. Based on the bible and when we compare these events to world history (which is undeniable), we have no choice but to accept the Historical view (the view that all of protestants of the reformation held). Most modern interpretations hold the Futurist view, which was started by a Catholic Jesuit theologian named Franciso Ribera.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Ribera

He proposed this view to combat the protestant reformation which held the historical view in labeling the pope as the anti-christ and the vatican the little horn beast power out of the sea. This Futuristic view takes part of the 70 weeks prophecy in Daniel where it is referring to Jesus the Messiah and moves it to the end of time and applies this piece to a coming anti-christ. If you would like, we can go over each view and each interpretation to see which one lines up with the scriptures.

2. When you said that you believe that there will be millions of God-fearing Christians in heaven who worshipped God on Sunday….. are you excluding the Catholics ? …. If not, what exactly is your point ?? …. So if I, as a Non-Catholic choose to worship God on Sunday, am I still saved ???

No No! There will be a lot of Catholics who worshipped and served God according to the light that they had. Our view of the anti-christ does not target the members of the RCC. There are millions of Catholics who really truly love the Lord. However, we are referring to the papal system at which is the head of this organization. And in regards to your last question, I would say that the Sabbath issue with respect to salvation matters just as much if someone chose to commit adultery, or murder, or steal, or lie, or disrespect their parents continually without repentance. If someone committed these things and knew it was wrong to do so, will they be saved?? Take that same approach and apply it to all Ten Commandments. Keep in mind that God, not me, God stated what He wanted in the Ten Commandments. And this includes the Sabbath. So I would say that we should hold all ten of God principles to the highest regard and King David feels the same way:

Psalm 119:127, 128 - Therefore I love thy commandments above gold; yea, above fine gold. Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way.

Deuteronomy 11:13, 18 and Exodus 13:9
Both these passages are figurative in nature. Literal reading of these verses have led to the practice of writing the texts of Exodus 1-10, 11-16, Deuteronomy 6:4-9, 11-13-21 on separate strips of parchment and placing them in two small leather boxes, which the observant Jew straps on his forehead and left arm before his morning prayers. The boxes are called “phylacteries†(see Matthew 23:5 below). This practice seems to have originated after the exile to Babylon.

Deuteronomy 11:13, 18 & Exodus 13:9 Figurative? According to whom? Would you like to visit these scriptures in context?

Matthew 23:5
But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments.

In this passage of Matthew 23, Jesus directly reproves the scribes and Pharisees. The scribes and Pharisees explained the law of Moses, and enforced obedience to it. They are charged with hypocrisy in religion. They can only judge according to outward appearance; but God searches the heart. They made phylacteries. These were scrolls of paper or parchment, wherein were written four paragraphs of the law, to be worn on their foreheads and left arms, (Exo. 13:2 to 10; 13:11 to 16; Deut. 6:4 to 9; 11:13 to 21). They made these phylacteries broad, that they might be thought more zealous for the law than others.

Ok so how does this equate to the disregarding of God’s law??

Exodus 31:13, 17
As a sign of the Noahic covenant is the rainbow (Gen. 9:13), and as the sign of the Abrahamic covenant is circumcision (Gen. 17:11), the sign of the Mosaic covenant is the observance and celebration of the Sabbath day.

That’s not what the bible says, the bible says that the Sabbath is a sign or mark of the Creator of life who created this world in six days and rested the seventh:

Exd 31:16, 17 - Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

No where does it refer to the Sabbath being a sign that represents the Law of Moses. Here we can clearly see that the Sabbath is a sign representing creation.

Whereas God did not command Christians to observe the Sabbath, the Scriptures do teach the importance of periodic physical rest regardless of the dispensation in which we may live. [/color]

.

If that is your view, so be it. But do we keep nine of God’s commandments or do we live by all of them always that it might be well with us and our children forever??

Deut 5:29 - O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

Or do we keep all ten of them because Jesus said that one jot or tittle will not pass from the law.

Matthew 5:18 - For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

So from these verses, it is clear that some aspects of the law are still valid. And the ones that are not are clearly explained in the New Testament. And if Jesus kept the Sabbath (Luke 4:16), those who followed Him kept the Sabbath after His death (Luke 23:56), Paul and others kept the Sabbath (Acts 17:2 & Acts 18:4), and Gentiles kept the Sabbath (Acts 13:42, 44; Acts 16:13), what leads you to believe that Christians should disregard it? You are correct in that the New Testament does not explicitly state that Christians should observe the Sabbath. However there is biblical evidence that Jesus and those who came after Him kept the Sabbath. So why should we void one of God’s commandments if Jesus kept it and we should walk even as He walked?:

1 John 2:6 - He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked.

There is nothing in the New Testament that leads us to believe that the Sabbath has been transferred from the seventh day to the first. The only notion that people can lean upon is 1.) silence and 2.) personal interpretations of the fulfillment of the New Covenant. But there are many laws in the OT that the NT is completely silent on and yet NT Christians unanimously agree that they are still valid. This is hypocrisy but again, if that is your view, so be it…

 

[Drew]

But the point is even if you could and if it were actually relevant, none of this is positive support for SDA beliefs, specifically their categorical divisions of the laws in the Pentateuch.

Agree, there is no basis for retrojecting such disrinctions into the writings of Paul.

 

[Drew]

Obviously you don't understand the difference between you defending SDA classifications of Pentateuchal law and asking me irrelevant questions that have nothing to do with you defending them.

Wavy is correct on this point of method. What he believes is not relevant to the content of his critique of your drawing distinctions within the Torah.

 

[Brother Lionel]

Wow! I am being told that I am wrong for wanting to live in obedience, but you guys are saying that you are right by disregarding the law of God???

People please think about this...

What is sin???? The disregarding or breaking of God's law!! You judge yourselves when you say such things...

Psa 119:126 - It is time for thee, LORD, to act: for they have made void thy law.

Mal 2:9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.

 

[Drew]

Wow! I am being told that I am wrong for wanting to live in obedience, but you guys are saying that you are right by disregarding the law of God???

People please think about this...

You are not representing me properly. The careful reader of this thread will know that I have never embraced "disobedience" as you imply. I can only hope that this misrepresentation of yours is not intentional and is rather due to a lack of sufficient time to read all my posts with due care. I am afraid that the transcript of this and other threads suggests that it is you who need to do some careful thinking.

What is sin???? The disregarding or breaking of God's law!!

It is actually not just "breaking God's law" in all its uses. You have been shown just this in multiple arguments that you have not counter-argued. You have been shown the following:

1. In Romans 7, the word "sin" has a meaning other than breaking God's laws
2. In Romans 8, the word "sin" has a meaning other than breaking God's laws
3. In 1 Cor 15, the word "sin" has a meaning other than breaking God's laws

In any event, those who have read my posts will know that I have repeatedly, and I mean repeatedly, asserted that, now that the time of the written code has ended, we are to obey the Spirit.

So I am decidedly not embracing disobedience to God in any sense.

Brother Lionel, are you hoping that readers will not notice that the Spirit has replaced the Law in Paul's thinking as the authority for determining our actions?

 

[Brother Lionel]

How can "The Spirit" replace the Law of God?? So our Moral Standard now is the Spirit? And if you say you have never advocated disobedience to God's Law, what are you advocating? Certainly, if someone says that I dont have to keep the Ten Commandments, then they are trying to convince me to disregard them. There can be no "middle ground". Either we should obey them or not?? But if you say the latter, then you would sound crazy so you come up with silly phrases like "The Spirit replaced the Law"... C'mon man....

 

[Brother Lionel]

Tina -
If you would like to discuss the depths of why we believe that no other institution or nation like the RCC qualifies to be the beast power which rises out of the sea and the anti-christ, let me know. I would be glad to share some things with you.

 

[Drew]

How can "The Spirit" replace the Law of God??

I have already addressed in the other thread - I am not going to waste my time reposting text you apparently choose to not read. But, in any event, we know that Paul believes that the Spirit has indeed replaced the Law. He could make this case any clearer than he does here:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Certainly, if someone says that I dont have to keep the Ten Commandments, then they are trying to convince me to disregard them.

No. I have addressed this before. I will try yet again. I love my dog. Do I need a law to tell me to feed her? No I do not. Do I need a law to tell me not to make her spend the night outside when its 25 degreee below zero? No I do not.

Using your reasoning, my "love-driven" behaviour to my dog (that has no need of rules) entails the implication that it would be "OK" to mistreat my dog.

Now please do not "play dumb" - this is a clear explanation, anybody can understand it. One simply does not need "rules" to govern behaviour when love is present.

 

[Brother Lionel]

I have already addressed in the other thread - I am not going to waste my time reposting text you apparently choose to not read. But, in any event, we know that Paul believes that the Spirit has indeed replaced the Law. He could make this case any clearer than he does here:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Drew, I've stated over and over that Paul was not telling people they were free from living in accordance with the law of God. This is clear in Romans 3:31 where he says "do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." When Paul said that we have been freed from the law and that we should serve in the newness of life, he meant that we were free from the law in terms of justification and we were free from the penalty of the law. We were free from trying to keep the law in orderto receive salvation which was impossible. So when we serve in the newness of the Spirit, we should live in obedience to God Word which is His law because Jesus has free us from the penalty of the law, not the law itself because if we were free from the law, then that meant that we could sin according to the law and we would be "ok" which is false doctrine (no offense). If your view was accurate, then Paul's writings would contradict themselves left and right...

And what's even more interesting, I basically went through most of the ten commandments with you one by one and you agreed that we should still keep everyone I ask you about. So which is it??? Are we "free" from obeying them or are we not?? Every reference that you brought up about Paul was in regards to justification and the penalty of the law, not the law itself. We must be careful to correctly apply Paul's writings or else fall victim of deception as Peter described:

2 Peter 3:16 - As also in all his epistles (Paul's), speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction (saying that the Ten Commandments which came from the mouth of God were no longer binding), as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

 

[Drew]

Drew, I've stated over and over that Paul was not telling people they were free from living in accordance with the law of God.

There is no doubt that this is what you are telling us. But you telling us this does not make it true.

This is clear in Romans 3:31 where he says "do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."

I still owe you a response to this text. And I will provide an argument about the intended meaning of this text that is entirely consistent with the abolition of the written law. You have much more work to do than I do. There are many unrefuted arguments of mine on the table, just as this text from Romans 3 needs a response from me.

 

[Brother Lionel]

I just did. Paul says that we are free from the penalty, not the law itself. To assume that this was the premise of his writings would make them appear contradictory. He said that "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." So he said it right here that he did not mean to get rid of the law altogether, but that the penalty of the law has been taken away so we are free in that regard.

 

[Drew]

What's even more interesting, I basically went through most of the ten commandments with you one by one and you agreed that we should still keep everyone I ask you about. So which is it??? Are we "free" from obeying them or are we not??.

I have addressed this over and over again. You are not reading my posts. Or you are reading them and pretending that you have not. Or you do not have the ability to understand a clearly articulated argument.

Either way, I am done with you on this topic. I may post more material but I will not be responding to your posts.

 

[Brother Lionel]

As I stated in the other posts. I encourage you to study Paul's writings in the correct context - that the PENALTY of law is gone. And justification is through Christ, not the law. What you are implying (that we are no longer under law) is anarchy! And what is anarchy??

anarchy - a state of society without government or law.

Pure and simple! And God does not condone anarchy! He is a God of order. No law, no order. And His divine principles bring order to His kingdom.

 

[Tina]

.

Tina -
If you would like to discuss the depths of why we believe that no other institution or nation like the RCC qualifies to be the beast power which rises out of the sea and the anti-christ, let me know. I would be glad to share some things with you.

Catholic discussions aren't allowed here .....

I am only interested in what's biblical ... I am not interested in some biased articles.
If you think you have what I'm interested in, you can send me a PM.


.

 

[Tina]

.

2. When you said that you believe that there will be millions of God-fearing Christians in heaven who worshipped God on Sunday….. are you excluding the Catholics ? …. If not, what exactly is your point ?? …. So if I, as a Non-Catholic choose to worship God on Sunday, am I still saved ???

No No! There will be a lot of Catholics who worshipped and served God according to the light that they had. Our view of the anti-christ does not target the members of the RCC. There are millions of Catholics who really truly love the Lord. However, we are referring to the papal system at which is the head of this organization.

1. So are you trying to say that it's only the Pope who's doomed for hell ? ......

2. Since you are sure that millions of God-fearing Christians and Catholics who worshipped God on Sunday will go to heaven, then what exactly is the point of observing a Saturday Sabbath ?

 

[Tina]

.

And in regards to your last question, I would say that the Sabbath issue with respect to salvation matters just as much if someone chose to commit adultery, or murder, or steal, or lie, or disrespect their parents continually without repentance. If someone committed these things and knew it was wrong to do so, will they be saved?? Take that same approach and apply it to all Ten Commandments. Keep in mind that God, not me, God stated what He wanted in the Ten Commandments. And this includes the Sabbath. So I would say that we should hold all ten of God principles to the highest regard and King David feels the same way:

Psalm 119:127, 128 - Therefore I love thy commandments above gold; yea, above fine gold. Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way.

Haiyayayaya ......... ........ ..........


I have no choice but to copy and paste from the Sunday thread .........


Show me where in the NT is the TEN Commandments mentioned. While the term "ten commandments" is mentioned 3 times in the Old Testament, in the entire NEW Testament, nowhere is the term "ten Commandments" mentioned, only "commandments" .... which you wrongly ASSUME to mean ten commandments including Sabbath.

There's a world of difference between the OLD and NEW Testament where commandments are concernced. In the NEW Testament, we have NEW laws such as BAPTISM and observance of holy communion (bread and wine). These additional two are important commandments that are nowhere found in the Old Testament... The Old Testament laws are NOT the same as the New Testament laws. The "commandments" mentioned in OT are NOT the same as the "commandments" mentioned in the NT. Even when Paul referred to the OLD Testament "ten" commandments in 2 Corinthians 3, he called it the "ministry of death and condemnation" that was "fading away" ...


Matthew 15:19
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies .

Matthew 23:34
Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city,

Luke 18:22
So when Jesus heard these things, He said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.â€Â

Luke 21:12
But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake.

Luke 21:34
But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly.

Romans 1:26-32
For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful ; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

Romans 13:13
Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkenness, not in lewdness and lust, not in strife and envy.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:20-21
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Timothy 6:10
For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

1 Peter 4:3
For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentilesâ€â€when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries.

James 5:1-6
Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming upon you! Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days. Indeed the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out; and the cries of the reapers have reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth. You have lived on the earth in pleasure and luxury; you have fattened your hearts as in a day of slaughter. You have condemned, you have murdered the just; he does not resist you.

Revelations 9:21
And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.

Revelations 11:18
The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth.â€Â

Revelations 17:6
I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus (persecution) And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.


When one examines the major sins pointed out in the New Testament as in the scriptures above , the “great sin" of Sabbath-breaking that Adventists keep harping upon does NOT appear to have caught the attention of the authors of the New Testament !

In the OLD Testament, the Israelites were punished for rejecting the old covenant and the Sabbath, the sign of the old covenant.

Show me one scripture in the New Testament where Sabbath-breaking is mentioned as a SIN .... that will possibly warrant loss of salvation for the unrepentant Christian !


.

 

[francisdesales]

You asked me a question, I gave you an answer. Its not my fault that you weren't expecting questions in return...

I asked you two questions: The first was what were the classifications of Pentateuchal law offered by SDAs based on? You answered 'Uhhhh...The bible??' and proceeded to ask me an irrelevant question. This obviously fails as a defense for your SDA beliefs.

The second question I asked you was whether you understood the difference between defending your beliefs and questioning me about my own. Given your responses like the following:

Because I still havent got a response on Deut 18...

...the answer is evidently no. So we can assume you don't have any defense for your beliefs and that they are just as I designated them: ridiculous.


Finis,
Eric

Sounds like good logic to me. What does Eric's personal views have to do with defending SDA doctrines? Brother L, you need to defend SDA doctrines, since that is the theme of this topic as well as the question asked by Eric. Turning the tables on Eric does not defend SDA's ridiculous adherence to PART of the Mosaic Law, arbitrarily chosen, at that... The Jews didn't pick and choose which of the Mosaic Laws they followed. Why does the SDA and based upon what Scriptural evidence?


Regards

 

[francisdesales]

2. Since you are sure that millions of God-fearing Christians and Catholics who worshipped God on Sunday will go to heaven, then what exactly is the point of observing a Saturday Sabbath ? [/color]

I would like to hear the answer to that question, as well...

 

[Elijah674]

2. Since you are sure that millions of God-fearing Christians and Catholics who worshipped God on Sunday will go to heaven, then what exactly is the point of observing a Saturday Sabbath ? [/color]

I would like to hear the answer to that question, as well...

Both the Laodicean Advents of Rev. 3:9 + the Rev.17:1-5 Anomination of the Earth & her daughters are [ALL] in satan's satanic bed together at this DAY & HOUR!

--Elijah

 

[Brother Lionel]

.

2. When you said that you believe that there will be millions of God-fearing Christians in heaven who worshipped God on Sunday….. are you excluding the Catholics ? …. If not, what exactly is your point ?? …. So if I, as a Non-Catholic choose to worship God on Sunday, am I still saved ???

No No! There will be a lot of Catholics who worshipped and served God according to the light that they had. Our view of the anti-christ does not target the members of the RCC. There are millions of Catholics who really truly love the Lord. However, we are referring to the papal system at which is the head of this organization.

1. So are you trying to say that it's only the Pope who's doomed for hell ? ......

2. Since you are sure that millions of God-fearing Christians and Catholics who worshipped God on Sunday will go to heaven, then what exactly is the point of observing a Saturday Sabbath ?

1. No, I am not saying that either. What I am saying is that those who have the knowledge of the truth and still refuse to live by it will have to give an account for their decisions and actions (Hebrews 10:26). There are a lot of people, Catholic and Protestant who are “doomed for hell†because there are both Catholics and Protestants who have not accepted Jesus as their Savior and are not living according to the will of God. In other words, just because you belong to an organization or particular group of believers doesn’t guarantee that you will be saved or lost. This is why I state that there will be millions of good, God-fearing Catholics who will make it to the kingdom because they are worshipping God according to the knowledge that they have and God will not hold them accountable for the things that they do not know. However, there are those who know exactly what’s going on and yet they refuse to side with God in terms of doctrine and lifestyle. Those are the ones who Jesus will judge (Matthew 7:21-23).

2. Because those who will make it to the kingdom even though they observed Sunday did not know. Again, God judges according to the light that you have, not according to what you do not know. And the purpose for observing the Sabbath is because God commands us to do so. That should be enough but, for the sake of the conversation, we also observe it because it is a memorial to acknowledge that He is Creator and the Supreme Authority and giver of life. This is why God says:

Exodus31:16-17
"Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: (He proceeds to refer back to creation and what He did as Creator) for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed."