Do Seventh Day Adventists Preach Error?

[Brother Lionel]

SDA beliefs are ridiculous. It's not difficult to dismantle their doctrines.


Finis,
Eric

Ridiculous? If you have questions, please by all means, let discuss...

 

[wavy]

Ridiculous? If you have questions, please by all means, let discuss...

Yes, ridiculous. For example, SDAs create all sorts of arbitrary classifications in the regulations of the Pentateuch in order to support their own artificial distinction between the ten commandments and other laws in the Pentateuch. What are these based on? Nothing.


Finis,
Eric

 

[Brother Lionel]

Ridiculous? If you have questions, please by all means, let discuss...

Yes, ridiculous. For example, SDAs create all sorts of arbitrary classifications in the regulations of the Pentateuch in order to support their own artificial distinction between the ten commandments and other laws in the Pentateuch. What are these based on? Nothing.


Finis,
Eric

Uhhhh...The bible??

What laws do you think we should not keep today??

 

[wavy]

Uhhhh...The bible??

Your imagination, rather. Onus is on you...

What laws do you think we should not keep today??

This is an irrelevant question.


Finis,
Eric

 

[Brother Lionel]

What laws do you think we should not keep today??

This is an irrelevant question.


Finis,
Eric

And yet you say we erroneously apply the OT law. How is this irrelevant? Im starting to assume that "irrelevant" for you really means "i dont know"...

 

[wavy]

And yet you say we erroneously apply the OT law.

What I said was that the categories you place various regulations of Pentateuchal law in are artificial. You've given me no defense to demonstrate their validity.

How is this irrelevant? Im starting to assume that "irrelevant" for you really means "i dont know"...

Just for the record, I don't believe any of the laws of the Hebrew bible are applicable, if that satisfies your curiosity. But the point stands that what I think about these laws has nothing to do whatsoever with SDAs supporting their classifications of Pentateuchal law. That's what I mean by 'irrelevant'.


Finis,
Eric

 

[Brother Lionel]

So basically, I can consult with demonic spirits and those who use divination, or an enchanter, or a witch, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer even though God called these people who practice such things an abomination? Or better yet, I can lay with a beast right?? Or wait, I can cause my sons and my daughters to pass through the fire of Molech and be okay with God right?? C'mon Mr., do you really believe that this is sound doctrine???

 

[wavy]

So basically, I can consult with demonic spirits and those who use divination, or an enchanter, or a witch, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer even though God called these people who practice such things an abomination? Or better yet, I can lay with a beast right?? Or wait, I can cause my sons and my daughters to pass through the fire of Molech and be okay with God right?? C'mon Mr., do you really believe that this is sound doctrine???

This is the last time I'm going to say this, and I hope it eventually sinks in: What I believe has nothing to do with you defending what you believe at the moment. You are the one who invited my enquiry into SDA beliefs. So let's discuss you defending SDA beliefs, not asking irrelevant questions about my beliefs. Do you understand this difference?


Finis,
Eric

 

[Brother Lionel]

This is the last time I'm going to say this, and I hope it eventually sinks in: What I believe has nothing to do with you defending what you believe at the moment. You are the one who invited my enquiry into SDA beliefs. So let's discuss you defending SDA beliefs, not asking irrelevant questions about my beliefs. Do you understand this difference?


Finis,
Eric

But that is the problem Eric! You rant and rave about how my application of the law is flawed yet when I call you out on one the OT laws, you say its "irrelevant". So, if I believe that the law of association with demonic spirits found in Deuteronomy 18:10-12, which is in the Hebrew bible, is still valid today and you say it isnt, Im asking you why not???!!! And do you believe that we can now do these things??

 

[wavy]

But that is the problem Eric! You rant and rave about how my application of the law is flawed yet when I call you out on one the OT laws, you say its "irrelevant". So, if I believe that the law of association with demonic spirits found in Deuteronomy 18:10-12, which is in the Hebrew bible, is still valid today and you say it isnt, Im asking you why not???!!! And do you believe that we can now do these things??

Obviously you don't understand the difference between you defending SDA classifications of Pentateuchal law and asking me irrelevant questions that have nothing to do with you defending them. Please learn this difference. But right now it seems you're incapable of doing so, hence the red herrings.


Finis,
Eric

 

[Brother Lionel]

You asked me a question, I gave you an answer. Its not my fault that you weren't expecting questions in return...

Because I still havent got a response on Deut 18...

 

[wavy]

You asked me a question, I gave you an answer. Its not my fault that you weren't expecting questions in return...

I asked you two questions: The first was what were the classifications of Pentateuchal law offered by SDAs based on? You answered 'Uhhhh...The bible??' and proceeded to ask me an irrelevant question. This obviously fails as a defense for your SDA beliefs.

The second question I asked you was whether you understood the difference between defending your beliefs and questioning me about my own. Given your responses like the following:

Because I still havent got a response on Deut 18...

...the answer is evidently no. So we can assume you don't have any defense for your beliefs and that they are just as I designated them: ridiculous.


Finis,
Eric

 

[Brother Lionel]

LOL! Its rediculous but Ive still havent gotten a response on Deut 18.......

 

[Brother Lionel]

You refuse to respond to Deut 18 because if you say "yes we should still abide by this law", then that goes against everything you've been claiming and that will shatter your whole belief system. I know Eric, I've been there... Keep reading my man...Keep reading... God hasnt given up on you yet so dont give up on Him...

 

[Brother Lionel]

And TheCatholic, I havent heard from you in response to my post regarding Tina's question. Since you started this thread, what's up????

 

[wavy]

You refuse to respond to Deut 18 because if you say "yes we should still abide by this law", then that goes against everything you've been claiming and that will shatter your whole belief system. I know Eric, I've been there... Keep reading my man...Keep reading... God hasnt given up on you yet so dont give up on Him...

If your attentiveness were any better than your exegesis, you'd realize that I'm not a Christian. (see avatar). You could hardly 'shatter' my 'belief system' on the basis of anything Deuteronomy says...

But the point is even if you could and if it were actually relevant, none of this is positive support for SDA beliefs, specifically their categorical divisions of the laws in the Pentateuch. The only thing I've been 'claiming' is that you can't defend these divisions...and you've amply demonstrated that on your own on account of your tangential questions. Thank you for illustrating how SDA beliefs are guided by dogma, not reason, and are indeed ridiculous.


Finis,
Eric

 

[Brother Lionel]

By the way Tina -
I forgot something... NO ONE has this mark of the beast now. However, when the RCC forces worship by way legislation is when decision time will be made known. And this is when our allegiance will be on the line...

 

[Brother Lionel]

Eric.
Your response in regards to Deut 18 validates our belief on the correct application of the law, which is why you have been completely silent on the issue... :yes

 

[wavy]

Eric.
Your response in regards to Deut 18 validates our belief on the correct application of the law, which is why you have been completely silent on the issue... :yes

You're open to believe whatever fantasies you wish. Fact of that matter is, your case isn't even logical.

1) You won't answer my irrelevant question
2) Therefore, I'm right.


This is what your argument amounts to, and it simply doesn't follow. Just to show you how irrational it is, let me indulge you for a minute. Let's imagine for a second -- and from your posts I can deduce you have a very creative imagination, so this shouldn't be too difficult for you -- that I was a believer and answered 'yes' to your irrelevant question about Deuteronomy. What does that mean? It could mean that I was a Messianic Jew who believed all the laws in the Pentateuch were binding.

What does that have to do with defending the SDA categorical divisions of the law into ceremonial and moral or what have you, and separating the ten commandments out of them as applicable? It obviously does absolutely nothing in particular in the way of defending this SDA dogma.

What this means is that your questions are smokescreens...red herrings...tangents -- they only serve to take the focus off of the fact that you can't defend your beliefs, so through some magical rule of inference you think me not answering these irrelevant questions is positive support for your beliefs, and it isn't. So you have no excuses. Your beliefs are irrational. Your faith in the truth of them is blindly dogmatic.


If not, prove me wrong. I'll be waiting on an intellectually honest answer.

Finis,
Eric

 

[Tina]

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What is the connection between Sabbath breaking and the 666 mark of the beast ?
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Hey Tina!!!
Well, before I start, I want to say that we believe that there will be millions of God-fearing Christians in heaven who worshipped God on Sunday. God judges people according to the light that they have and He will not hold someone accountable for something that they did not know was outside the will of God. I would also like to clarify that the mark of the beast is not 666. The bible says that this is the number of the man, the anti-christ. The beast at which this anti-christ controls will cause all to recieve this mark. So it is a mark, not a number.

With that being said, let's get started shall we??
Now the bible says that the beast will cause all to receive the mark on their right or their forehead. Did you know that God also wants us to place something on our hands and our foreheads? And the Word says:

Deu 11:13, 18 - And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul...Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.

So here we see that the commandments of God must be placed on our hand and in our foreheads. Now the beast also will cause a mark to be placed on the right hand or on the forehead. Many good people would see this and assume that God was referring to an outward sign but this is not the case. The "sign upon our hand" means to act accordingly, and the"frontlets between the eyes" means to think accordingly being that we worship God with our actions and with our cognitive thinking. Here is another verse to clarify:

Exodus 13:9 - And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the LORD'S law may be in thy mouth: for with a strong hand hath the LORD brought thee out of Egypt.

So, God's commandments are to be on our hands and our foreheads. Included in these commandments is, of course, the Sabbath commandment. The Sabbath is the commandment that identifies who the Lord is (the Creator), what He made (the world), why He made it holy (because He rested), and what He wants us to do on it (to rest). God calls this commandment a "sign" to be observed forever:

Exodus 31:13, 17 - Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

Now a "sign" is defined as the following:

sign-
1. a token; indication.
2. any object, action, event, pattern, etc., that conveys a meaning.
3. a conventional or arbitrary mark, figure, or symbol used as an abbreviation for the word or words it represents.

So, as we see here, according to the bible we can conclude that God has a mark or sign which is the Sabbath Day. We also have to keep in mind that Satan hates this. Psalm 119:151 says that all of the Lord's commandments are truth. And so naturally, Satan has hated the Sabbath truth and has been attacking the Sabbath truth for millennia after millennia because the central theme of the fourth commandment is the one thing that Satan wants - WORSHIP!! Satan wants what God receives, and that is worship. This is why Satan has a counterfeit for everything that God has established. God has a kingdom, Satan has a kingdom; God has angels, Satan has angels; God has a worship system, Satan has a worship system. So if God has chosen a day for His creation to rest, worship, and commune with Him as a sign or a mark, would it make sense for Satan to also have a day for men to worship and have his sign or mark?? I would say yes but let's dig further...

Now that we've seen what the bible has to say about the Sabbath, lets see what the denomination we identified as the anti-christ says about the Sabbath and Sunday:

"Not the Creator of Universe, in Genesis 2:1-3,-but the Catholic Church can claim the honor of having granted man a pause to his work every seven days."-S. C. Mosna, Storia della Domenica, 1969, pp. 366-367.

"The Pope is of great authority and power that he can modify, explain, or interpret even divine laws... The Pope can modify divine law, since his power is not of man, but of God, and he acts as vicegerent of God upon earth." -Lucius Ferraris, Prompta Ribliotheca, "Papa," art. 2, translated.

"The Pope has the power to change times, to abrogate laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ." "The Pope has the authority and often exercised it, to dispense with the command of Christ." Decretal, de Tranlatic Episcop. Cap. (The Pope can modify divine law.) Ferraris' Ecclesiastical Dictionary.

"Is not every Christian obliged to sanctify Sunday and to abstain on that day from unnecessary servile work? Is not the observance of this law among the most prominent of our sacred duties? But you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify." -James Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of Our Fathers (1917 ed.), pp. 72, 73.

"The Bible says, Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day. The Catholic church says, No! By my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day, and command you to keep the first day of the week. And lo, the entire civilized world bows down in reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic church!" Father Enright, C.S.S.R. of the Redemptoral College, Kansas City, Mo., History of the Sabbath, p. 802

"The Adventists are the only body of Christians with the Bible as their teacher, who could find no warrant in its pages for the change of day from the seventh to the first. Hence their appellation," Seventh-day Adventists. "They're cardinal principle consists in setting apart Saturday for the exclusive worship of God, in conformity with the positive command of God Himself, repeatedly reiterated in the sacred books of the Old and New testaments, literally kept by the children of Israel for thousands of years to this day, and endorsed by the teaching and practice of the Son of God while on earth." -Rome's Challenge, page two

"Is not yet too late for Protestants to redeem themselves. Will they do it?... will they indeed take the written word only, the Scripture alone, as their sole authority and their sole standard? Or will they still hold the indefensible, self contradictory, and suicidal doctrine and practice of following the authority of the Catholic church and wear the SIGN of her authority? Will they keep the Sabbath of the Lord, the seventh day, according to Scripture? Or will they keep the Sunday according to the tradition of the Catholic church, -Rome's Challenge, page 31

“Sunday is our mark or authority...the church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.† Catholic Record of London, Ontario, September 1, 1923.

“Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change (Saturday Sabbath to Sunday) was her act...And the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical authority in religious things.† H.F. Thomas, Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons.

Here we see two things; blasphemy being that RCC (Roman Catholic Church) claims that the pope can "play God", and pompous words in that they show utter arrogance in how they claim that they can change this or that. Now, Daniel identifies the little horn power which will be diverse from the first four kingdoms (Babylon, Persia, Greece, and pagan Rome), and he shall subdue three kings. And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. Dan 7:24, 25

Now this fits the RCC like a glove because 1.) during the fall of the pagan Roman Empire and the rise of the papal Roman Empire, they abolished three kingdoms which stood in their way of achieving world-wide domination - the Ostrogoths, Vandals, and the Heruli; 2.) they speak great words against the Most High in terms of blasphemy being that they claim that they can forgive sins and that they make the pope God (which is why they call him "Father" and "His Holiness"); 3.) the time, times, and the dividing of time is the 1,260 year period where the RCC ruled Europe with an iron fist from 538 a.d. to 1798 a.d. (which is documented in history). This is why they call this period "The Dark Ages". It is estimated that the RCC was resposible for the deaths of millions of Jews and Christians who refused to bow to the pope. These deaths were so horrible, the pope had to officially apologize for it. If you dont believe it see for yourself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apologies_ ... hn_Paul_II


So, this is the connection between Sabbath breaking and the mark of the beast:

The Sabbath is Gods sign or mark, The Catholic Church says their mark is Sunday.
According to the bible, the beast is a kingdom - what we commonly called a country today. The bible says that this beast would persecute Gods people for 1260 years and would think to change times and laws.

No other entity on this planet qualifies to be the beast other than the RCC. They are a kingdom, they came from Rome, they were a persecuting power for 1260 years, they changed times because the whole world today is under the Gregorian calendar who was a pope (Pope Gregory XIII), and they presume to change God's law from Sabbath to Sunday. So the mark of beast (the RCC) is Sunday. But they will use the USA to speak through legislation (Rev 13:15) to cause all to receive this mark of her authority.

Brother Lionel,

First of all, I have 2 main questions :-

1. Are your interpretations of the Bible passages and the teachings as you described above from some SDA / Ellen White’s materials ? … I am asking because I have more than 10 different Study Bibles and none of them interprete the verses the way you do …..

By the way Tina -
I forgot something... NO ONE has this mark of the beast now. However, when the RCC forces worship by way legislation is when decision time will be made known. And this is when our allegiance will be on the line...

2. When you said that you believe that there will be millions of God-fearing Christians in heaven who worshipped God on Sunday….. are you excluding the Catholics ? …. If not, what exactly is your point ?? …. So if I, as a Non-Catholic choose to worship God on Sunday, am I still saved ???


I will let the Catholics respond to the bulk of your post above, but will address your misinterpretations of the Bible passages.


Deuteronomy 11:13, 18 and Exodus 13:9
Both these passages are figurative in nature. Literal reading of these verses have led to the practice of writing the texts of Exodus 1-10, 11-16, Deuteronomy 6:4-9, 11-13-21 on separate strips of parchment and placing them in two small leather boxes, which the observant Jew straps on his forehead and left arm before his morning prayers. The boxes are called “phylacteries†(see Matthew 23:5 below). This practice seems to have originated after the exile to Babylon.


Matthew 23:5
But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments.


In this passage of Matthew 23, Jesus directly reproves the scribes and Pharisees. The scribes and Pharisees explained the law of Moses, and enforced obedience to it. They are charged with hypocrisy in religion. They can only judge according to outward appearance; but God searches the heart. They made phylacteries. These were scrolls of paper or parchment, wherein were written four paragraphs of the law, to be worn on their foreheads and left arms, (Exo. 13:2 to 10; 13:11 to 16; Deut. 6:4 to 9; 11:13 to 21). They made these phylacteries broad, that they might be thought more zealous for the law than others.


Exodus 31:13, 17
As a sign of the Noahic covenant is the rainbow (Gen. 9:13), and as the sign of the Abrahamic covenant is circumcision (Gen. 17:11), the sign of the Mosaic covenant is the observance and celebration of the Sabbath day.

Observance of the Sabbath was unique to Israel. It distinguished Israel from all other
nations. So important was its observance that the Israelite who failed to observe it died
(v. 15). This sign was to continue throughout all succeeding generations (v. 13) as long as
God continued to work through Israel as His primary instrument (Rom. 10:4; Heb. 9:10).

Whereas God did not command Christians to observe the Sabbath, the Scriptures do teach
the importance of periodic physical rest regardless of the dispensation in which we may
live.


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