Do Seventh Day Adventists Preach Error?

[francisdesales]

deleted and edited to make one post below....

 

[francisdesales]

Yes, the Sabbath WAS for a specific people. No one before Moses time observed the Sabbath on Saturday and only the Jews observed it on Saturday. It is part of the Old Covenant, and passed away with Christ. Paul makes that clear in Colossians..

I would like you to address my statement instead of affirming in your own mind what you already believe. What exactly was the purpose of the seventh day being 'blessed', and 'hallowed' by God outside of man's sphere of influence and then referred directly back to in the Sabbath commandment of Exodus?

I did address your misconception. Did you not read my first sentence, which I post above???

"Yes". A refutation that the Sabbath was for everyone that YOU claim...NO ONE before Moses spoke of any "Sabbath". Only to the Jews was the Decologue given, so how can this be something for everyone if no one but Jews is aware of it????


Perhaps you should provide something from the Bible that affirms that the Saturday Sabbath is meant for ALL people, RATHER than affirming what you already believe in your own mind? Even the Jews didn't believe that. Seems only modern day Judaizers do.

Where is your evidence that the CHRISTIAN church in Jerusalem "kept the sabbath"? Other Christian writers state that they worshipped God on Sunday as early as the 1st century.
Regards

Though arguments were put forth by Barnabas and Justin Martyr in the early 2nd century, Sunday keeping did not replace Sabbath keeping but was kept either exclusively or in addition to Sunday church services.

The Didache points out that the Christians PURPOSELY changed days of fasting to days other than when the Jews fasted. Considering what Paul wrote to the Colossians about keeping particular sabbaths, I would say that Saturday sabbath-keeping was another item that Christians choose to reject in favor of a Sabbath that worshipped God on a different day. They had already rejected every other Jewish-particular in cult. Otherwise, there would be no need for Paul to even address this issue. The Colossians were being attacked by Judaizers for changing the Sabbath day...

Naturally, the Saturday Sabbath would be another means of separating themselves from he "hypocrites", as the Didache calls the Jews.

This link explores the keeping of the Sabbath in the early Christian church. I encourage you to read it and dispute the logic and historical facts of the matter.
http://www.cogwriter.com/sabbath.htm

While there may be some useful information there, it has obvious Scriptural twisting going on to support an already-preconceived notion. Consider the use of Hebrews 4:3-6, 9-11. The author with the screen name "COGwriter" tells us that ...

"There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience..."

refers to the actual Sabbath day! The context does not support that eigesis. It is quite convenient how this charecter skips over verse 8 and the rest of chapter 4...The Sabbath-rest that we are to enter into, for Christians, is CHRIST, our High Priest.

He also poisons the well and makes other unsupported conclusions, such as calling the author of "Barnabas" not Christian, as if that would make its historical assertions less true or even dubious. (as if only Christians could provide true historical documentation of events.)

Not only does he twist Scriptures, he twists the context of history, such as the reason behind Pope Victor I's decision on Easter being celebrated on a given day - again, out of context, trying to make it sound like Victor was enforcing a Christian vs. Hebrew Sabbath, when this was not the case. It was over the calculation of which day to celebrate Easter based upon the Passover, nothing to do with the weekly Sabbath. Any Chrisitan worth their salt knows that the day that Easter is celebrated requires a bit of strange calculation. Unfortunately, "COGwriter" drops all kinds of presumptions into his writings while forcing historical cases out of context. But because he quotes ancient people, it gives his writing the air of historical accuracy! I did not bother to read all of it, I think this one example is sufficient to toss aside the idea that this writing is authoritative evidence behind when or why Christians moved the Sabbath to Sunday.

There is one conclusion that I find from "COGwriter" that I do support:

Actually, it appears that Sunday became observed because antisemitic persecution.

The Didache supports that idea and i would agree that this was why Christianity went its separate way, to include moving the Sabbath day to Sunday, just as they had moved days of fasting, written while the Apostles were still alive:

Fasts are not to be on Monday and Thursday "with the hypocrites" (i.e. the Jews), but on Wednesday and Friday (viii). Nor must Christians pray with the hypocrites, but they shall say the Our Father thrice a day.

Pretty sound evidence that the Christians no longer went to the synagogue on Saturday to pray with the Jews...

Regards

 

[Brother Lionel]

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1. So are you trying to say that it's only the Pope who's doomed for hell ? ......

1. No, I am not saying that either. What I am saying is that those who have the knowledge of the truth and still refuse to live by it will have to give an account for their decisions and actions (Hebrews 10:26). There are a lot of people, Catholic and Protestant who are “doomed for hell†because there are both Catholics and Protestants who have not accepted Jesus as their Savior and are not living according to the will of God. In other words, just because you belong to an organization or particular group of believers doesn’t guarantee that you will be saved or lost. This is why I state that there will be millions of good, God-fearing Catholics who will make it to the kingdom because they are worshipping God according to the knowledge that they have and God will not hold them accountable for the things that they do not know. However, there are those who know exactly what’s going on and yet they refuse to side with God in terms of doctrine and lifestyle. Those are the ones who Jesus will judge (Matthew 7:21-23).

That's great ! :D ... So nothing wrong with worshipping on Sunday or any other day then ..... :biglol

Just because you dont know that something is wrong doesnt make it right when you are doing it...

As I stated, there are those who know exactly what’s going on and yet they refuse to side with God in terms of doctrine and lifestyle even though the scriptures guide them in the direction that they should go. Those are the ones who Jesus will judge (Matthew 7:21-23).

2. Since you are sure that millions of God-fearing Christians and Catholics who worshipped God on Sunday will go to heaven, then what exactly is the point of observing a Saturday Sabbath ?

2. Because those who will make it to the kingdom even though they observed Sunday did not know. Again, God judges according to the light that you have, not according to what you do not know. And the purpose for observing the Sabbath is because God commands us to do so. That should be enough but, for the sake of the conversation, we also observe it because it is a memorial to acknowledge that He is Creator and the Supreme Authority and giver of life. This is why God says:

Exodus31:16-17
"Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever[/u]: (He proceeds to refer back to creation and what He did as Creator) for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed."

That's right !!! ...... As the very scripture you pointed out above says : It is a sign between God and children of Israel ..... children of Israel ..... children of Israel ..... children of Israel ..... children of Israel ..... children of Israel ..... children of Israel ..... children of Israel ..... children of Israel ..... children of Israel ..... children of Israel ..... children of Israel ..... children of Israel ..... children of Israel ..... children of Israel .....


Did I mention children of Israel ?......... ........


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who do you think the true children of Israel are?:

Hebrews 8:10 - For this is the covenant (the New Covenant) that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people.

Romans 11:24-26 - For if thou (gentiles) wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature (the literal nation of Israel), and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree (brought into the nation of spiritual Israel by Christ): how much more shall these, which be the natural branches (literal nation of Israel), be graffed into their own olive tree (the spiritual nation of Israel)? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved (spiritual Israel): as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob (the Mediator of the New Covenant which was promised to spiritual Israel only).

Romans 2:28, 29 - For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: but he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

The true children of Israel are spiritual Israel. This is why God established the New Covenant and gave the promise only to Israel. So now, all those who accept Jesus (whether Jew or Gentile) are brought into the nation of promise. But if you claim that the sign of creation (the Sabbath) is only for literal Israel, then that would mean that the promise also is only for literal Israel which is not biblical. The Sabbath was for the foreigner also:

Exodus 20:10 - But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates.

Isaiah 56:6 - Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant.

So again, the purpose for observing the Sabbath is to 1.) acknowledge that God is creator of the universe and that He is Lord (Matthew 12:8) over your life because He has chosen the Sabbath to be the sign of this decree; and 2.) to rest from the labors and toils of the world and to spend quality time with God and family.

 

[RND]

This has been a thoroughly entertaining thread.

 

[Brother Lionel]

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Deuteronomy 11:13, 18 and Exodus 13:9
Both these passages are figurative in nature. Literal reading of these verses have led to the practice of writing the texts of Exodus 1-10, 11-16, Deuteronomy 6:4-9, 11-13-21 on separate strips of parchment and placing them in two small leather boxes, which the observant Jew straps on his forehead and left arm before his morning prayers. The boxes are called “phylacteries†(see Matthew 23:5 below). This practice seems to have originated after the exile to Babylon.

Deuteronomy 11:13, 18 & Exodus 13:9 Figurative? According to whom?

*Sigh* ...... ........ According to my NIV Study Bible.
It says here on the cover : "Over 7 million copies sold" ......

Do you think I have some extra-biblical materials like Ellen White's writings ........ :naughty :naughty :naughty

What are you talking about??? And what is so figurative about God telling them that if they diligently keep His commandments which He command them to perform, to love the LORD their God, and to serve Him with all of their heart and with all of their soul that they would prosper as a people???? Is that not sound doctrine? Does not God teach that we will get a reward if we are obedient to His will? And those who are not will feel the wrath of God?? Whats your point??

Matthew 23:5
But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments.

In this passage of Matthew 23, Jesus directly reproves the scribes and Pharisees. The scribes and Pharisees explained the law of Moses, and enforced obedience to it. They are charged with hypocrisy in religion. They can only judge according to outward appearance; but God searches the heart. They made phylacteries. These were scrolls of paper or parchment, wherein were written four paragraphs of the law, to be worn on their foreheads and left arms, (Exo. 13:2 to 10; 13:11 to 16; Deut. 6:4 to 9; 11:13 to 21). They made these phylacteries broad, that they might be thought more zealous for the law than others.

Ok so how does this equate to the disregarding of God’s law??

Nice try !! … So now you are dodging the real issue ……….

In one of your earlier post this is what you said :-

Clarity, please….
What is the real issue?

You grossly misinterpreted and skewed scriptures to align with Ellen White’s and SDA’s false teachings. You said “the commandments of God must be placed on our hand and in our foreheads†…. But Jesus equated such people with HYPOCRITES in Matthew 23:5. You said “included in these commandments is, of course, the Sabbath commandment†…. which obviously is YOUR OWN assumption ….

Where in the NEW Testament did Jesus ever commanded Christians to observe Saturday Sabbath ?


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Since when does obedience to God’s Ten Commandments have anything to do with doing works to be seen of men?? And I grossly misinterpret and skew scriptures??? LOL!! If that is the case, then Jesus does to!!

Mat 5:17-19 “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least inthe kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.â€Â

 

[Brother Lionel]

Understood RND, but when there is a disconnection between two schools of thought on one of the most basic doctrines (Obedience to the Ten Commandments), then we definitely need to talk about this...

And the sad part about this is that if you guys say no we shouldnt, and you go and ask your church members the same question, I am sure that some will say yes and others will say no (in the same church). So, clearly, there is no clarity in most churches about this issue. Why??? Because their preachers do not want to preach and teach obedience to the law of God even though they know it is still wrong to physically commit adultery, murder, or theft. And they dont want to preach it because that opens the door the main issue that the preachers and teachers want to avoid - the fourth commandment...

If they teach obedience to the law of God, then that means that they have to address the Sabbath issue. Most preachers and teachers who have a basic understanding of the bible know full well that the bible says absolutely nada about first day in terms of rest and worship. Most preachers and teachers know full well that there is no command or decree that transfers the sacredness and holiness from the seventh day to the first day. Most preachers and teachers know that this tradition came directly from the Roman Catholic Church and not from the bible. Most preachers and teachers know full well that Jesus, Paul, John, Peter, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and others kept the seventh day as God's day of rest and worship. They know.... And if you dont believe me, go and ask them...

So, I understand what you are saying RND, but when someone says that "we dont have to keep the Ten Commandments", then we have a problem - a huge problem. And before we address other teachings of the SDA movement, we have to tackle this one first. We can not get to point d without first grasping point a...

 

[RND]

You know what is so remarkably funny BL? I was watching EWTN tonight for a little while (as I'm apt to do) and one priest was extolling the virtues and truths of the Ten Commandments....go figure! He was doing a masterful job quite frankly. Of course, his teaching was bias towards the RCC version of the Ten Commandments but, none the less, he was extolling the virtue of these universal truths.

 

[Brother Lionel]

You know what is so remarkably funny BL? I was watching EWTN tonight for a little while (as I'm apt to do) and one priest was extolling the virtues and truths of the Ten Commandments....go figure! He was doing a masterful job quite frankly. Of course, his teaching was bias towards the RCC version of the Ten Commandments but, none the less, he was extolling the virtue of these universal truths.

LOL! Wow! How ironic! They esteem them and despise them at the same time! This is crazy!

 

[Elijah674]

Do Adventist believe the Spirit of Prophecy? Hardly! Only like the Masters Words of Matt. 23:2
& then REJECTION as seen in verse 38! Your Laodicean Denomination [is] once again left unto you DESOLATE!

E.G.W. statements are [all] in part: "The church is in the Laodicean state. The presence of the Lord [is not in her midst]." N.B.L. pg. 99
Whose presence is then? Try Rev. 3:9, & who was it that was her 'new' leader in verse 38 of Matt. 23 with the Abomination that made her Desolate of the Master?

E.G.W. statement: "For evils that we might have checked, we are just as responsible as if we were guilty of the acts ourselves." D.A. pg. 441
And now we see that the Adventist denomination has included the Great Whore & Her Daughters
open filth into their professed 'c'hristian camp [as fellow sisters & brothers], and are now guilty of their open sins also!

E.G.W. statement: "If wrongs are apparent ... and the servants of God pass on indifferent to them ... they justify the sinner, and are alike guilty and ... will be made responsible for the sins of the guilty."
3 testimonies, pgs. 265-266 in part.
Even Caesar recognizes this! Is not a country giving asylum to a terrorist also guilty? A driver of a get away car, while robbing a bank, do we not hold this one guilty? And people call themselves Christians, supporting this stuff? And all the while robbing God of His tithes & offerings? Wow!

E.G.W. statement: "Satan will set up his hellish banner right in your homes, and you will be so blinded to the real nature of his deceptions that you reverence it as the banner of Christ."
1888 Materials, pg. 505
Sure, Adventism believes their Prophet, huh?

5 Testimonies, pg. 294
"They will not recognize Satan as their enemy, that old serpent, but they will consider him as a friend, one that is doing a good work."
E.G.W. statement: "Satan uses those who claim to believe the truth but whose light has become darkness [as his mediums to utter his falsehoods and transmit his darkness]." R.H. Aug. 19, 1890
Where are these to be found in Eze. 9? Or in Israel of old? Or in 1844 there/bouts? The same place as today!

Another E.G.W. statement: "God is displeased with us when we go to listen to error [without being obliged to go]; for unless [He sends us to those meetings where error is forced home] to the people ... He will not keep us. The angels cease their watchful care over us and we will be left to our buffetings of the enemy by him and the power of his evil angels: [and the light becomes contaminated with darkness]." E.W. pg.s 124-5

Pg. 69 ibid.. "I was pointed to those [who claim to be Adventists], but who [reject Present Truth] and [saw that they were crumbling and that the hand of the Lord was in their midst to divide and scatter them in the gathering time], so that the precious jewels among them, [who have formerly been deceived], may have their eyes opened ... and [to leave their former associates and errors], embrace the truth and stand where they can define their position." (Read Laodices of Rev. 3:9!)
Again: Why was John the Baptist an [outside offshoot]?! And how could God the Father give His blessing on His Son being baptized by John who even had converts [outside] of virgin Israel?!

E.G.W. statement: "After a long and severe conflict, [the faithful] decided to dissolve all union with [the apostate church] .. They saw that [separation was an absolute necessity if they would obey the Word of God]. They [dared not tolerate errors fatal to their own souls and set an example which would imperil; the faith of their children and their children's children." 4 S.O.P. pg. 46

Friend: And what [Is] your G.C. President calling these ones? You tell me that today as we see this [same exact] filth, that our love is not green & sickening? We love enough not only to stay yoked to this same exact filth, but go all over the world making converts & then bring them to this slaughter?? See Matt. 23:15.

E.G.W. statement: "It required a [desperate struggle] for those who would [be faithful] to stand firm against deception and abominations ... They saw that [separation was an absolute necessity if they would obey the Word of God]." ibid.. pg. 46 Try Jer. 15: 15-19 & 2 Cor. 6:14-18 with Rev. 18:4's eternal life & eternal death's decision!

E.G.W. statement: "John the Baptist was a man filled with the Holy Spirit from his birth and if there was anyone who could remain unaffected by the [corrupted influence] ... it was surely he. Yet [he did not venture to trust his strength]; he separated himself from his friends and relatives that his natural affections might not prove a snare to him." 4 Testimonies, pgs. 108 & 517.

Do you need these quotes? There is a short cut found in Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15, 'IF' one believes the Master? But we will give just one more for those who tell us that they believe E.G. Whites
work??

"Jesus departed from Jerusalem, from the priests, [the temple,] the [religious leaders, the people,] ... and turned [to another class to proclaim His message] ... Often those who follow in the steps of the reformers are [forced to turn away from the churches they love, in order to declare the plain teaching of the Word of God.] And many times those who are seeking [for light are obliged to leave the church of their fathers, that they may render obedience ... Slowly and regretfully Christ left forever the precincts of the temple." D.A. pgs. 232, 626. Read Matt. 23:38

E.G.W. statements are mostly in part. You can go and read them in full if you so desire?

But, rest assured 'public library readers' that there is not much of anything that can move the Rev. 3:16-17 Adventist! These Words of this verse are the Words of the Master Himself, the one that they claim to love! If some Adventist Review articles do not do the work of awakening, nothing it seems will do it! So they have given their sentence for what the Master must & will do, themselves! That of Rev. 2:4-5. For they have recorded it themselves in the heavenly record books, the below paragraph:
"If the church is in apostasy, [it has no reason to exist,] and the [Lord must raise up a new church as His instrument for these last days." Aug. 2000 Adventist REVIEW (in center of pg. 35)

In the finished work of 1 Peter 4:17's House of God First,

--Elijah

 

[francisdesales]

You know what is so remarkably funny BL? I was watching EWTN tonight for a little while (as I'm apt to do) and one priest was extolling the virtues and truths of the Ten Commandments....go figure! He was doing a masterful job quite frankly. Of course, his teaching was bias towards the RCC version of the Ten Commandments but, none the less, he was extolling the virtue of these universal truths.

LOL! Wow! How ironic! They esteem them and despise them at the same time! This is crazy!

Clearly, you still don't get our point of view.

We do not follow the dictates of the Ten Commandments because they are the Mosaic Law.

We follow them because they were given to man BEFORE Moses was ever born...

Every man has been imprinted with the "Golden Rule" and all that it encompasses. We know it is wrong to steal and murder, even if we never HEARD of the Ten Commandments.

Thus, you again present a false picture of what the Catholic Church teaches. Not a single person yet has said they "despise" the Ten Commandments. We follow the Moral Law for different reasons. You follow it because you desire to become Jewish, perhaps even to the degree of self-multilation, as Paul mentions... We are not bound to that REASON for following the dictates of the Ten Commandments.

If you bind yourself to the Commandments BECAUSE they are part of the Mosaic Law, then you must also obey the rest of the Mosaic Law.

Why is it that you cannot address this point? You keep ignoring it because you know it is true.

Do you stone children and blasphemers and adulterers and gays? If not, you are disobeying the Mosaic Law - making yourself a hypocrite for whining about Saturday Worship of God, while disobeying the commands to put to death particular people...

So before complaining about craziness, you should look to the beam in your own eye. :naughty

And maybe come back to the point of this topic, which is the defense of SDA false teachings.

 

[Rick W]

7 pages is enough of the line of debate.