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End Times or Rapture?

Allen Wynne

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I have confusion about these verses, Matthew 24:40-41.
"Two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill: one will be taken and the other left?
Is this end times or rapture?
If it is rapture, then the ones taken are the children of God.
If it is end times, the ones left behind are the children of God.
Which is it?

I see other verses of similarity.
Matthew 13:24-30, the parable of the weeds.
Luke 3:17 seems to go along with this.
Matthew 24:38-39.
Luke 17:18-30.

Can someone end the confusion?
 

JLB

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I have confusion about these verses, Matthew 24:40-41.
"Two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill: one will be taken and the other left?
Is this end times or rapture?
If it is rapture, then the ones taken are the children of God.
If it is end times, the ones left behind are the children of God.
Which is it?


I see other verses of similarity.
Matthew 13:24-30, the parable of the weeds.
Luke 3:17 seems to go along with this.
Matthew 24:38-39.
Luke 17:18-30.

Can someone end the confusion?

The resurrection takes place at Jesus' return, at the end of the age.

The resurrection takes place before the rapture.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Once you have this concept established in your understanding then this scripture makes more sense -

38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!


JLB
 

reba

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The resurrection takes place before the rapture.
According to Jesus....

Joh_6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Joh_6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh_6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh_6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh_11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Joh_12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
 

Allen Wynne

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okay, Jlb and Reba, i see a lot of verses I have read a million times before, but I don't see that either of you have clearly answered my question.
please be more direct for my sake.
 

reba

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Allen did you really think you would get clear answer? Do you want a clear answer?
I dont think the Scriptures were written to give us simple clear answers. But to make us study and search....
Matt 13 was so very distorted by Scofield....
 

JLB

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okay, Jlb and Reba, i see a lot of verses I have read a million times before, but I don't see that either of you have clearly answered my question.
please be more direct for my sake.
Here is the "question" you asked -

I have confusion about these verses, Matthew 24:40-41.
"Two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill: one will be taken and the other left?
Is this end times or rapture?
If it is rapture, then the ones taken are the children of God.
If it is end times, the ones left behind are the children of God.
Which is it?

I see other verses of similarity.
Matthew 13:24-30, the parable of the weeds.
Luke 3:17 seems to go along with this.
Matthew 24:38-39.
Luke 17:18-30.

Can someone end the confusion?
You seem to ask several questions.

If you ask me a specific question, I will give you a specific answer.

Line upon line, we will learn together.


JLB
 

jasoncran

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allenwyne this is a loaded question. you cant get the answer without going all over the bible to get the proper context.
 
K

King James

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Some believe in pre-trib rapture. Some believe in mid-trib rapture. Some believe in post-trib rapture. Some believe there will be a couple raptures. Some believe there will be no rapture. Everyone can go out and find scripture to make it support whatever they believe. To get "ONE CLEAR ANSWER", you would have to just rely on one persons opinion. In that case, you should just read the bible over and over where the end time prophecy is being discussed and make your own opinion.

Here is interesting thought. What if no one's raptured. At least in the way people are thinking. What if they get taken up just to get transformed into the form of the saints living in the millennial city early in order to begin working for Jesus during the tribulation to carry out needed jobs and tasks.
 

n2thelight

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I have confusion about these verses, Matthew 24:40-41.
"Two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill: one will be taken and the other left?
Is this end times or rapture?
If it is rapture, then the ones taken are the children of God.
If it is end times, the ones left behind are the children of God.
Which is it?

I see other verses of similarity.
Matthew 13:24-30, the parable of the weeds.
Luke 3:17 seems to go along with this.
Matthew 24:38-39.
Luke 17:18-30.

Can someone end the confusion?

First,the rapture is a unbiblical doctrine....................

The one's left are the children of God..

Matthew 13:24 "Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:"

Remember the subject; the king and His king dominion.

Matthew 13:25 "But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way."

This Word "tares" in the Greek is "zizanion", and not "darnel". It is a plant in Palestine known today as "zewan". When Zewan is growing it looks like wheat, but when it is full grown the ears are long, and the grains inside are almost black. To make the wheat grain fit for grinding, each grain of zewan must be removed, or the bread is bitter and poisonous.

The wheat and the zewan are the same color when first coming up, then as the wheat turns golden and ripens, the zewan also ripens into it's poison grain, and shows it's true colors. While the wheat is golden ripe, the black bitterness of the fruits of zwan make it obvious of the mixture.

Don't lose the focus of this verse. This is a parable of a man that had a field, and in verse twenty four we see that man sowed "good seed". But while he was resting from his hard days labor, some enemy came along and sowed bad seed.

This parable is deeper than what Im allowed to post on this forum,but anyway,the wicked shall be removed.....


Luke 3:17 "Whose fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly purge His floor, and will gather the wheat into His garner; but the chaff He will burn with fire unquenchable."

Friend, there is no getting away with anything in this life, for your words and deeds are going to be purged before the heavenly court. Those that are tested to be the chaff will be consumed by God unquenchable fire. Once the last day of the Millennium is over, all souls will stand before our Heavenly Father at the great white throne judgment, and the unquenchable fire of God that follows is going to come. It is unstoppable, there will be no more chance of conversion by repentance. You can count on this time of separation when even the remembrance of loved ones that are not saved will be wiped clean from all memory. It will be as if that person never existed at all.

In olden times before the modern equipment of today, you had the thrashing that would crush the wheat, and the fanner which would create wind to blow away the chaff that was not wanted. At the end of the harvest time of souls, that is what will happen also for God will be the fanner, and those of the chaff will be blown right into the fire. There is a lot of friction that goes on in the process of separating the chaff from the wheat, and only the tried true stuff falls to the floor, all the other junk gets blown away into the fire. When God is trying to test you to see what you are made of, you may have a few tests and trials, but God will see you through those times that are beyond you.

Matthew 24:37 "But as the days of Noe were so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."
This "Noe", is the Greek form of the Hebrew word, "Noah". These final days of this earth will be exactly as it was in the days that Noah was on the earth, just prior to his entering into the ark. To find out what happened in that day, we must go to Genesis 6. What was it like in those days?

Genesis 6:1, 2; "And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them," [1] "That the sons of God [the fallen angels] saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose." [2]

These angels left their first estate, as Jude writes in Jude 4, and married flesh women of flesh man. From this marriage came the offspring of this evil relationship. These offspring were called; in Strong's Hebrew dictionary # 5303, and 5307, "Nephilim, or the Giants. These angels are created beings, and thus are called the "sons of God".

Genesis 6:4-5; "There were giants [Nephilim] in the earth in those days; and also f=after that, when the sons of God [fallen angels] came in unto the daughters of men, they bare [children, is added by the translators] to them, the same became might men which were of old, men of renoun."

So we see that the fallen angels left their habitation of the heavenlies, and came to earth and mated with women and a new for of life was formed, and evil form defiant against God. Man and angels are very similar, for the Israelites were sustained on angels food in the wilderness, and angels ate of mans food, as we saw when they sat with both Abraham, and Lot, and ate.

The whole reason for the flood of Noah's time was to destroy the misfits that had invaded the earth, and inbred with women. The reason for God saving Noah is recorded in Genesis 6:8, 9; "But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord." [8] "These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God." [9]

In the Hebrew manuscripts, "perfect" is the word "tamin", or without blemish, with respect to pedigree. What this is telling us is that all of flesh corrupted except for Noah's family. The word in the Hebrew for "walked", means Noah walked habitually [continually] with God.

Are you starting to get the picture, these angels are going to return to earth in the last days, and do the same as they did in Noah's day. Strange events are starting to come to light, and the governments around the world are allowing sightings and events to go out to the public, where before they would kill and discredit those who saw the events. We are very close to the time when they will become as common as man, and be accepted,

Jesus is telling them that it is not going to be any difference now, as it was in Noah's day, for you are going to have the fallen angels down their with you then. When Satan is caste to the earth, all of Satan's many fallen angels will be caste out with him. This is recorded in Revelation 12:7-9; "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, [7] "And prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven." [8] "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." [9]

 
O

Osgiliath

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Originally Posted By allenwynne,

I have confusion about these verses, Matthew 24:40-41.

"Two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill: one will be taken and the other left?

Is this end times or rapture?

Follow the Scriptures and slowly take it step by step. In "the days of Noah" who was "taken" in the flood; the wicked, or Noah and his family? In the parable of the wheat and the tares, what is gathered first, the wheat or the tares? (See Matthew 13:30)

And we have:

Proverbs 10:30 "The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth."

And:

John 17:15 "I pray not that thou should take them out of the world, but that thou should keep them from the evil one."


Take it one step at a time, and do your best to follow the Scriptures with lots of prayer and objectivity.
 
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digging

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I agree and see that also the wicked are the ones taken.

Digging
 
L

Lehigh3

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I have confusion about these verses, Matthew 24:40-41.
"Two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill: one will be taken and the other left?
Is this end times or rapture?
If it is rapture, then the ones taken are the children of God.
If it is end times, the ones left behind are the children of God.
Which is it?

I see other verses of similarity.
Matthew 13:24-30, the parable of the weeds.
Luke 3:17 seems to go along with this.
Matthew 24:38-39.
Luke 17:18-30.

Can someone end the confusion?
Matthew 24:40-42 (NKJV) "Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 "two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 "Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.
These verses have nothing to do with the rapture. "Be taken" is not a reference to being "caught up" but to "be taken" in judgement. In case you doubt what I am saying, let's go to Luke again.
Luke 17:34-37 (NKJV) "I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 "Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 "Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left." 37 And they answered and said to Him, "Where, Lord?" So He said to them, "Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together."
If you remember our study in of Matthew 24:28 you will remember that this is a picture of judgement. They are taken away to judgement and slavery- not to heaven.
In light of His coming in judgement on Jerusalem, Jesus cautions His disciples to "watch."

http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/matthew/3rd_coming.htm
 

John 8:32

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It is about the church fleeing to a place of safety, hence in Luke 17 the admonition to remember Lot's wife. The point referred to here about the days of Noah and the days of Lot are escape from destruction.

Luk 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
Luk 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.

If this were the coming of Christ, would you be concerned about running back down the ladder, into the house and grabbing your suitcase and your "stuff"? Nope, you would rise to meet Christ in the air. Now if you were about to flee for your life, a change of underwear and your toothbrush might come to mind.

Add Rev 12 to this...

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
 

escapefate

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This parable is implying coexistent between the saved and unsaved. That is something from per-tribulation. Post tribulation; there will be no coexistence between the righteous and the unrighteous. It will be a level of oppression maybe worse than the Jews endured in the 1940s.

During the end time there will be a death decree from the Beast that all of Yashuah's people should die, saying that they are the cause of the 7 tribulations and must be exterminated. At that moment of final impact between the two groups it will be finished.

So that is why I see the this parable as per-tribulation.
 

John 8:32

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This parable is implying coexistent between the saved and unsaved. That is something from per-tribulation. Post tribulation; there will be no coexistence between the righteous and the unrighteous. It will be a level of oppression maybe worse than the Jews endured in the 1940s.
Not maybe...

Jer 30:3 For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.
Jer 30:4 And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.
Jer 30:5 For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.
Jer 30:6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
Jer 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

This is a one-off. There can only be one time that is so terrible there has never been anything like it in the past or will be in the future.

During the end time there will be a death decree from the Beast that all of Yashuah's people should die, saying that they are the cause of the 7 tribulations and must be exterminated. At that moment of final impact between the two groups it will be finished.

So that is why I see the this parable as per-tribulation.
I think you will see that decree come from the False Prophet and be carried out by the Beast power...

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

By the way, there is no rapture. This is a myth invented around the 1830's by John Nelson Darby.
 

Eugene

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By the way, there is no rapture. This is a myth invented around the 1830's by John Nelson Darby.
Do you prefer the words "Caught up"?

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

There are those that John saw in heaven with Jesus, and they arrived there somehow.

Revelation 4:4
Revelation 4:6
Revelation 7:13-15
Revelation 14:1 (Note where Mount Sion is.) Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

My thoughts
 
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I'm more open to the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture than what I used to be, but how does one get around 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2?

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

What are those verses concerning? "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering back to him".

What must come to pass first? "that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition"

Who is the man of sin? Antichrist

So its seems there is no way we are gathering back to Christ until at least after the Antichrist is revealed.
 

n2thelight

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So its seems there is no way we are gathering back to Christ until at least after the Antichrist is revealed.
That would be correct.......But question,what does the rapture mean to you,where are you all going?I ask because I don't believe in a rapture period,although we shall gather back to Christ....Just curious
 

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