End Times or Rapture?

[Savedbygrace3927]

That would be correct.......But question,what does the rapture mean to you,where are you all going?I ask because I don't believe in a rapture period,although we shall gather back to Christ....Just curious

I consider the "rapture" to be when we meet Christ in the air. I must admit, it seems strange that we will meet Christ in the air just to do a U-turn and come right back down to earth, but that seems to be the case if it happens post-trib

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[John 8:32]

Do you prefer the words "Caught up"?

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

There are those that John saw in heaven with Jesus, and they arrived there somehow.

Revelation 4:4
Revelation 4:6
Revelation 7:13-15
Revelation 14:1 (Note where Mount Sion is.) Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

My thoughts

I prefer the word, resurrection. It was used by Christ and also by Paul in the resurrection chapter (1 Cor 15). I think it more accurately portrays what is going to happen at Christ's return.

 

[John 8:32]

Do you prefer the words "Caught up"?

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be [COLOR="blue"]caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air[/COLOR]: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

And Christ is on His way back to earth at this time...

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was [COLOR="blue"]caught up unto God,[/COLOR] and to his throne.

There are those that John saw in heaven with Jesus, and they arrived there somehow.

Revelation 4:4

These 24 Elders are not the risen saints

Revelation 4:6

The beasts are not the risen saints

Revelation 7:13-15

And this is looking ahead to a time after the tribulation when Christ's throne is on the earth...

Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Humans will go up to this throne and worship Christ (God)...

Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

No rain is not a correction for a nation of spirit beings, they need no rain. Isaiah plainly says that all FLESH will worship God and they will see carcasses of dead men.

Revelation 14:1 (Note where Mount Sion is.) Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, [COLOR="blue"]the heavenly Jerusalem[/COLOR], and to an innumerable company of angels,

My thoughts

Where will Mt Zion be in the Millenium? On the earth...

Isa 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Isa 4:3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:
Isa 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.
Isa 4:5 And the LORD will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence.

Isa_10:12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord hath performed his whole work upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks.

I do not see us going to Heaven...

Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

but rather, I see Jesus Christ returning and establishing the Kingdom of God on earth...

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

In fact Rev 20 shows that the earth ie where this reign occurs...

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

We saw in Rev 5:10 that this occurs on the earth

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

The nations are located on the earth

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

This doesn't occur in Heaven, this is an earthly event at the end of the Millenium whne Satan is permanently confined.

 

[Eugene]

I do not see us going to Heaven...

The Apostle John did as he viewed different ones before God's throne.

And Christ is on His way back to earth at this time...

If there is a last trump, is it possible to have previous trumps?

Dear John, are you familiar with the five viewpoints of Revelation John was shown such as Revelation 4:1 being one of them?

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

 

[John 8:32]

The Apostle John did as he viewed different ones before God's throne.



If there is a last trump, is it possible to have previous trumps?

Aren't there six previous trumpets?

Rev 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

The last trump is the seventh turmpet.

Dear John, are you familiar with the five viewpoints of Revelation John was shown such as Revelation 4:1 being one of them?

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

The book of Revelation was a vision given to John, he recorded it prior to his death.

Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

 

[Eugene]

Thanks for your reply John 8:32. There are voices as of a trumpet, and there are trumpets of judgment.

Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Revelation 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

Something you said about Revelation 4:2 being recorded prior to John's death was correct, but in spirit John was caught forward in time to the Lord's Day. John was then presenting that told to him by Jesus' angel things which is, which was, and which is to come from that perspective.

 

[John 8:32]

Thanks for your reply John 8:32. There are voices as of a trumpet, and there are trumpets of judgment.

Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Revelation 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

Something you said about Revelation 4:2 being recorded prior to John's death was correct, but in spirit John was caught forward in time to the Lord's Day. John was then presenting that told to him by Jesus' angel things which is, which was, and which is to come from that perspective.

Very cogent comment Eugene and I thank you for it. The Lord's Day here has nothing to do with a day of the week, it is the day spoken of in over 30 prophecies as the day of God's intervening after 6000 years of hands off...

Isa 2:10 Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty.
Isa 2:11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
Isa 2:12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

Isa 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
Isa 13:7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
Isa 13:8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

Notice here the day for a year principle (Num 14:34 and Ezek 4:6)

Joe 1:15 Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
Joe 1:16 Is not the meat cut off before our eyes, yea, joy and gladness from the house of our God?
Joe 1:17 The seed is rotten under their clods, the garners are laid desolate, the barns are broken down; for the corn is withered.
Joe 1:18 How do the beasts groan! the herds of cattle are perplexed, because they have no pasture; yea, the flocks of sheep are made desolate.
Joe 1:19 O LORD, to thee will I cry: for the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness, and the flame hath burned all the trees of the field.
Joe 1:20 The beasts of the field cry also unto thee: for the rivers of waters are dried up, and the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness.

Joe 2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Joe 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

No wonder Amos was inspired to write...

Amo 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
Amo 5:19 As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.
Amo 5:20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

This is the day John saw in vision and captured in the book of Revelation.

 

[Eugene]

Dear John 8:32, you have many references to the Day of the Lord, but I think you will find many times the term "In that day," and the "Lord's day" referring to the same time.

The time we are talking of is the reign of Christ starting with the tribulation and lasting for a thousand years. It is actually Revelation 4:2 with Jesus' throne being set in heaven that we see these things begin after John in Revelation 4:1 heard the voice as of a trumpet telling him "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. Everything we read subsequent to this verse are things future from that time.

 

[n2thelight]

Originally Posted by n2thelight
That would be correct.......But question,what does the rapture mean to you,where are you all going?I ask because I don't believe in a rapture period,although we shall gather back to Christ....Just curious

I consider the "rapture" to be when we meet Christ in the air. I must admit, it seems strange that we will meet Christ in the air just to do a U-turn and come right back down to earth, but that seems to be the case if it happens post-trib

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Thanks for your reply.......,but how do you get past the fact that Christ said His coming would be after the trib?

Also about the word air , the "air" spoken of here, in the Greek is "breath of life"; we will meet Jesus Christ in our "breath of life bodies, or spiritual bodies". That is the mystery Paul spoke of in I Corinthians 15:50-54.
​

 

[Savedbygrace3927]

Originally Posted by n2thelight
That would be correct.......But question,what does the rapture mean to you,where are you all going?I ask because I don't believe in a rapture period,although we shall gather back to Christ....Just curious






Thanks for your reply.......,but how do you get past the fact that Christ said His coming would be after the trib?

Also about the word air , the "air" spoken of here, in the Greek is "breath of life"; we will meet Jesus Christ in our "breath of life bodies, or spiritual bodies". That is the mystery Paul spoke of in I Corinthians 15:50-54.
​

I dont know that we do get passed it. Thats why I'm not completely convinced that there will be a pre-tribulation rapture.

 

[John 8:32]

Dear John 8:32, you have many references to the Day of the Lord, but I think you will find many times the term "In that day," and the "Lord's day" referring to the same time.

The time we are talking of is the reign of Christ starting with the tribulation and lasting for a thousand years. It is actually Revelation 4:2 with Jesus' throne being set in heaven that we see these things begin after John in Revelation 4:1 heard the voice as of a trumpet telling him "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. Everything we read subsequent to this verse are things future from that time.

Agreed! What I was speaking to was the use of this term in referring to a particular day of the week. Nothing in Revelation is about a day of the week, but rather the Day of the Lord.

 

[JLB]

Not maybe...

Jer 30:3 For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.
Jer 30:4 And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.
Jer 30:5 For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.
Jer 30:6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
Jer 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

This is a reference to the Holocaust.

Jacob is a diaspora term for the people that are not in the covenant land, as verse 3 indicates. -

For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.

Verse 6 is a description of them in the gas chambers -

Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?


Jacobs trouble was the Holocaust. Immediately after the war God brought them back as He said.


JLB

 

[John 8:32]

This is a reference to the Holocaust.

Jacob is a diaspora term for the people that are not in the covenant land, as verse 3 indicates. -

For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.

Verse 6 is a description of them in the gas chambers -

Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?


Jacobs trouble was the Holocaust. Immediately after the war God brought them back as He said.


JLB

The Holocaust does not fulfill this passage, one only has to read the next few verses to see that...

Jer 30:8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
Jer 30:9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

The resurrected David is not ruling in the State of Israel today, Bibi is.

Jer 30:10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.

That would include those in Gaza. Hamas and Hezbollah are proof this has not been fulfilled yet.

Jer 30:11 For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.

God did not make a full end to the nations that Judah and Israel are scattered to in 1945. That comes at the return of Christ and the beginning of the Millenium.

 

[JLB]

The Holocaust does not fulfill this passage, one only has to read the next few verses to see that...

Jer 30:8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
Jer 30:9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

The resurrected David is not ruling in the State of Israel today, Bibi is.

Jer 30:10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.

That would include those in Gaza. Hamas and Hezbollah are proof this has not been fulfilled yet.

Jer 30:11 For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.

God did not make a full end to the nations that Judah and Israel are scattered to in 1945. That comes at the return of Christ and the beginning of the Millenium.

The resurrected David is not ruling in the State of Israel today, Bibi is.

Thank you making that point. Notice you said ... ruling the State of Israel and not ruling the state of Jacob.

When the children of Israel are in the "land" they are not called "Jacob".


8 'For it shall come to pass in that day,' Says the Lord of hosts, 'That I will break his yoke from your neck, And will burst your bonds; Foreigners shall no more enslave them.

Verse 8 has come to pass.

9 But they shall serve the Lord their God, And David their king, Whom I will raise up [future tense] for them.


...they shall [future tense] serve the Lord their God...

Verse 9 and on is future.


JLB

 

[Sinthesis]

Thank you making that point. Notice you said ... ruling the State of Israel and not ruling the state of Jacob.

When the children of Israel are in the "land" they are not called "Jacob".


8 'For it shall come to pass in that day,' Says the Lord of hosts, 'That I will break his yoke from your neck, And will burst your bonds; Foreigners shall no more enslave them.

Verse 8 has come to pass.

9 But they shall serve the Lord their God, And David their king, Whom I will raise up [future tense] for them.


...they shall [future tense] serve the Lord their God...

Verse 9 and on is future.


JLB

You don't believe Christ has been raised up?

 

[John 8:32]

Thank you making that point. Notice you said ... ruling the State of Israel and not ruling the state of Jacob.

When the children of Israel are in the "land" they are not called "Jacob".


8 'For it shall come to pass in that day,' Says the Lord of hosts, 'That I will break his yoke from your neck, And will burst your bonds; Foreigners shall no more enslave them.

Verse 8 has come to pass.

9 But they shall serve the Lord their God, And David their king, Whom I will raise up [future tense] for them.


...they shall [future tense] serve the Lord their God...

Verse 9 and on is future.


JLB

I was being correct about who is whom. Israel and Judah are separated nations and when Israel is spoken of in prophecy, the Jews are not the subject, Ephraim and Manasseh are the subject...

Gen 48:16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

This is Israel speaking to Joseph about Ephraim and Manasseh.

 

[JLB]

I was being correct about who is whom. Israel and Judah are separated nations and when Israel is spoken of in prophecy, the Jews are not the subject, Ephraim and Manasseh are the subject...

Gen 48:16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

This is Israel speaking to Joseph about Ephraim and Manasseh.

I think you missed what I said -

When the children of Israel are in the "land" they are not called "Jacob".


JLB

 

[John 8:32]

Actually I did get your point, but I think you may have missed mine, the Jews are not Israel, they are Judah and are named as such. Israel lives on a different continent today and will not be brought back to the land until the return of Christ...

Eze 36:17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.
Eze 36:18 Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:
Eze 36:19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
Eze 36:20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.
Eze 36:21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.
Eze 36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
Eze 36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
Eze 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

Notice this is Israel and not Judah...

Eze 37:15 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
Eze 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
Eze 37:17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
Eze 37:18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
Eze 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
Eze 37:20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
Eze 37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
Eze 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
Eze 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
Eze 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

So Judah and Joseph will be gathered together and made one with David as king over them. When does this happen? At the return of Christ when David is resurrected and made king over all Israel.

If this is what you meant, then I did misunderstand.

 

[iLOVE]

II Thessalonians 2:7-8 scriptures clearly tells us that the Rapture takes place before the Great Tribulation [Matthew 24:21]. The Church is Raptured before the Antichrist is revealed.

 

[n2thelight]

II Thessalonians 2:7-8 scriptures clearly tells us that the Rapture takes place before the Great Tribulation [Matthew 24:21]. The Church is Raptured before the Antichrist is revealed.

Where do you get a rapture from those verses???

If you went down a few verses in Matt,you would see that Christ comes after the trib

Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not have her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

As for Thess

II Thessalonians 2:7 "For the mystery of iniquity [lawlessness] doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

There is no mystery around when this will take place, for we will know his methods of operation [withholdeth], and the signs, the seasons, and the times of Satan's arrival to earth. If you are in the Word of God and not following these "one verse preachers", you will know when to expect the Antichrist. You will also know within hours of when to expect our Lord Jesus Christ's return. Satan's reign on earth is not seven years because God reduced that time to five months for the "elect's" sake, as Jesus told us in Matthew 24:22. Jesus also revealed that the time is shortened to five months, to John in Revelation 9:5, and 10.

The "mystery of lawlessness" is the mystery of iniquity. "He who now letteth will let"; in the Greek should be translated; "He who holds fast [ketcho] will stand." The ellipsis, or "omission from an expression of a word clearly implied"; "There is one who hold's fast", instead of by repeating the verb, "will let". However, "katecho" is a transitive verb, and an object must be supplied also. So if the subject in verse six is Satan, then the object must be his position in the heavenlies [see Ephesians 6:12], from which he will be ejected from heaven by Michael [Revelation 12:7-9].

"Out of the way", in the Greek is "out of ek", or "the midst". It is the same expression used in Acts 17:33, and I Corinthians 5:2.
Many "rapture theorists" claim this one who "letteth" is the Holy Spirit, and they claim that when He is "taken away", then the Antichrist will come. By reversing the role of the characters in the verses here, and attributing what is Satan's to the Holy Spirit, you have a whole new doctrine called the "Any moment doctrine". This false doctrine is better known as the "rapture theory". It is dangerous to play around with a foreign language; and when the flock relies upon their shepherd for the truth, and the shepherd is assumed to be correct; in ignorance it is accepted just because he said it.

It is Michael who "holds fast" on to Lucifer [the Antichrist], and Michael will continue to keep Lucifer held until the appointed time, spoken of above. That time is appointed by God. Then at the appointed time God will give Satan the keys [authority] to release his fallen angels and they will be cast to the earth [see Revelation 9:1-10]. Let's take a look at the one [Michael] who holds on to Satan now.

Revelation 12:7; "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels," Michael [that is who the "he" is in II Thessalonians 2:7 and his [Michael's] angels fought against the dragon [another name for Satan] and his [Satan's] fallen angels.

Revelation 12:8; "And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven." This war took place in heaven, and that is where Satan and his angels are now; though Satan's spirit, and demonic spirits are all over the earth today. Now we will see what Michael does with Satan, in fulfilling II Thessalonians 2:7.

Revelation 12:9; "And the great dragon [Satan] was cast out [that is the transitive verb of verse seven], that old serpent [this is the role Satan played in the Garden of Eden], called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world [except for God's elect]: he was cast out onto the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

This is when Satan will physically appear on earth as a man with his angels. This is the time of the Antichrist's coming, and we must know when this time is by when these events takes place, for Satan comes at the sixth trumpet.

Then the verse picks up where Satan is standing in the holy place. Satan's object is to deceive all the world, and have the world take his markings in their minds. God's Word thus says that Satan will come to earth and stand in that Holy place, before Christ will come and gather anyone back to Himself.

II Thessalonians 2:8 "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, Whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit [breath] of his mouth, and shall destroy [bring to naught] with the brightness [manifestation] of his coming:"

"The wicked" is better translated, "wicked one": What comes out of the Lord's mouth? It is the Truth. That is also the Word that God put in the mouth of Paul in this writing. Satan shall then be destroyed after being cast out, and also after standing in the holy place. After this is the time of Jesus Christ coming and gathering of His saints. There is no "anytime doctrine" here. It is in the course of certain events, and God lets us know clearly the order of these events, and exactly what to expect. In Matthew 24:15 Jesus is saying exactly what Paul is saying, Satan will come first and reign before the gathering of the saints.

Then Christ will destroy Satan.