End Times or Rapture?

[10s3r]

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Rapture or not someone alive is caught up to meet the Lord in the air. The answer to the question then cannot be not, but when. It's evident or sufficient for me that it happens at some trump other than the last trump, and to then seek the when.

In the revelation of Jesus Christ by God to John, he sees different ones appear before the throne in heaven. Again they must fit the criterion of 1 Thessalonians 4:17, the dead in Christ first, and then them that are alive. If there is no catching up, just how do they get there?

Why do you believe that the gathering occurs, "at some trump other than the last trump." When 1Cor 15:52 clearly states that it does?

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 

[Eugene]

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Rapture or not someone alive is caught up to meet the Lord in the air. The answer to the question then cannot be not, but when. It's evident or sufficient for me that it happens at some trump other than the last trump, and to then seek the when.

In the revelation of Jesus Christ by God to John, he sees different ones appear before the throne in heaven. Again they must fit the criterion of 1 Thessalonians 4:17, the dead in Christ first, and then them that are alive. If there is no catching up, just how do they get there?

Why do you believe that the gathering occurs, "at some trump other than the last trump." When 1Cor 15:52 clearly states that it does?

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Hi 10s3r, and thanks for the question. 1 Corinthians 15:54 is talking of a time after the thousand years when the last enemy death is destroyed in Verse Fifty-four; "So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

When we see Jesus in Revelation 4:2 receive His own throne in heaven prior to the tribulation, there are two groups of the church (Revelation 5:9) already with Him. Then there remains two additional bodies of the church to be caught up; the great multitude of Revelation 7:9, and the one hundred and forty-four thousand of Revelation 14:1 standing with Him on Mount Sion, the heavenly Jerusalem (Hebrews 12:22).

 

[10s3r]

Hi 10s3r, and thanks for the question. 1 Corinthians 15:54 is talking of a time after
the thousand years when the last enemy death is destroyed in Verse Fifty-four;
"So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall
have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is
written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave,
where is thy victory?

I certainly don't agree with that analogy. The righteous dead are raised at the end of tribulation and beginning of the 1000 years. At the seventh trumpet we are judged and rewarded. (Rev 11) We cannot be judged unless we are raised incorruptible. (1 Cor. 15:52) See the connection? They are the same trumpet! At the seventh trumpet the mystery of God is finished.

Revelation 10:7But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

1 Corinthians 15:51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This is what happens at the seventh trump.
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Revelation 11:18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
This passage is clear to me that this takes place before the 1000 years not at the end of it.

There are 6 words for last and the word last in 1Cor 15:52 is the same word for last Christ used here.

Revelation 1:11 　Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book...

Here the word victory means to conquer or triumph and indicates the believers victory through Christ over the grave. I just don't see that this victory is at the end of the 1000 years where death and hell are thrown into the abyss. The last trump is mentioned in verse 52. And you're using v. 54 to say it occurs at the end of the Millennium. Death is swallowed up in victory...this is the victory of the saints through Christ.

Mat 12:20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory 3534.

1Cr 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory 3534.

1Cr 15:55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory 3534?

1Cr 15:57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory 3534 through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The last trump in verse 52 certainly indicates the last trump.

There are 5 words for 'last' in the Greek NT. In 1 Cor. 15:52 Paul chose the word "eschatos' for a specific reason. And that reason was to signify the very last trumpet.

The word last in 1 Cor. 15:52 means the last in a series of trumpets.
It is the trumpet after which no trumpet will sound.

Strong's G2078 - eschatos

1) extreme
a) last in time or in place
last in a series of places
c) last in a temporal succession
2) the last
a) last, referring to time of space, the uttermost part, the end, of the earth
c) of rank, grade of worth, last i.e. lowest.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2078&t=KJV

　
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

When we see Jesus in Revelation 4:2 receive His own throne in heaven
prior to the tribulation, there are two groups of the church (Revelation 5:9) already with Him. Then there
remains two additional bodies of the church to be caught up; the great multitude
of Revelation
http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Revelation 7.97:9, and the one hundred and forty-four thousand of Revelation 14:1 standing with Him on Mount Sion,
the heavenly Jerusalem (Hebrews 12:22).

How many raptures do you believe in?

 

[Eugene]

How many raptures do you believe in?

I believe there are at least three raptures in the future; those shown with Jesus when He takes His throne in Revelation 4:2, the great multitude of Revelation 7:9, and the one hundred and forty-four thousand of Revelation 14:1. If John sees them in heaven, how do they get there? The very nature of the term "Last trump" indicates there must be previous trumps.

 

[10s3r]

How many raptures do you believe in?

I believe there are at least three raptures in the future; those shown with Jesus when He takes His throne in Revelation 4:2, the great multitude of Revelation 7:9, and the one hundred and forty-four thousand of Revelation 14:1. If John sees them in heaven, how do they get there? The very nature of the term "Last trump" indicates there must be previous trumps.

Rev. 4;1-2 ISN'T A RAPTURE. IT'S JOHN BEING TAKEN UP TO HEAVEN TO RECEIVE A VISION ABOUT WHAT IS TO COME. And I don't know where you find a rapture in Rev. 7:9 or 14:1.

How do you arrive at those conclusions? Three raptures? WOW!

 

[Eugene]

How many raptures do you believe in?

I believe there are at least three raptures in the future; those shown with Jesus when He takes His throne in Revelation 4:2, the great multitude of Revelation 7:9, and the one hundred and forty-four thousand of Revelation 14:1. If John sees them in heaven, how do they get there? The very nature of the term "Last trump" indicates there must be previous trumps.

Rev. 4;1-2 ISN'T A RAPTURE. IT'S jOHN BEING TAKEN UP TO HEAVEN TO RECEIVE A VISION ABOUT WHAT IS TO COME. And I don't know where you find a rapture in Rev. 7:9 or 14:1.

How do you arrive at those conclusions? Three raptures? WOW!

Are the different ones John seen in heaven? How do they get there? Some are with Jesus before the tribulation even begins.

 

[10s3r]

The ones John sees in heaven are those who were risen with Christ at his resurrection. All those who have died since then up to the Day of the Lord will rise at the end of tribulation as well as those who are alive.

Want proof?

 

[Eugene]

The ones John sees in heaven are those who were risen with Christ at his resurrection. All those who have died since then up to the Day of the Lord will rise at the end of tribulation as well as those who are alive.

Want proof?

Sure, though I would ask how those with Him are the church redeemed from out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation, and then you realize that those John seen are future from the beginning of the Lord's day. Revelation 1:10. "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day," and then in Revelation 4:1. "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. Those caught up with Christ at His resurrection are also not from every tongue and people. Thanks for your responses.

 

[10s3r]

Sure, though I would ask how those with Him are the church redeemed from out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation, and then you realize that those John seen are future from the beginning of the Lord's day. Revelation 1:10. "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day," and then in Revelation 4:1. "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. Those caught up with Christ at His resurrection are also not from every tongue and people. Thanks for your responses.

Those caught up with Christ at His resurrection are also not from every tongue and people.

Why aren't they? I don't understand your point and how it relates.

Eugene,
Please break down your questions a little for me I'm not sure what you're asking.

 

[Eugene]

The ones John sees in heaven are those who were risen with Christ at his resurrection. All those who have died since then up to the Day of the Lord will rise at the end of tribulation as well as those who are alive.

Want proof?

Those caught up with Christ at His resurrection are also not from every tongue and people.

Why aren't they? I don't understand your point and how it relates.

Eugene,
Please break down your questions a little for me I'm not sure what you're asking.

Yeah, I was probably assuming you knew the direction I was taking, and actually there are several things I didn't clarify. If you don't mind I will just start at the time viewpoint John is caught up into heaven in Revelation 4:1. "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."

Those things he is shown is to be hereafter from the time he is caught up; In other words future from that point. Would you agree with that and if not why?

You had mentioned the Old Testament saints as being those with Christ when John seen them and my point was that those were not made up of every nation, kindred, and people as were those of Revelation 5:9 that will reign as kings and priests of God over the earth.
Thanks.

 

[10s3r]

The ones John sees in heaven are those who were risen with Christ at his resurrection. All those who have died since then up to the Day of the Lord will rise at the end of tribulation as well as those who are alive.

Want proof?

Those caught up with Christ at His resurrection are also not from every tongue and people.

Why aren't they? I don't understand your point and how it relates.

Eugene,
Please break down your questions a little for me I'm not sure what you're asking.

Yeah, I was probably assuming you knew the direction I was taking, and actually there are several things I didn't clarify. If you don't mind I will just start at the time viewpoint John is caught up into heaven in Revelation 4:1. "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."

Those things he is shown is to be hereafter from the time he is caught up; In other words future from that point. Would you agree with that and if not why?

You had mentioned the Old Testament saints as being those with Christ when John seen them and my point was that those were not made up of every nation, kindred, and people as were those of Revelation 5:9 that will reign as kings and priests of God over the earth.
Thanks.

Eugene,
I'm trying to follow you along here so before I work at answering your question I need to ask you.

I've said that there were people resurrected with Christ and obviously they had to be from the Old Testament time period up to the time of the resurrection.

Your saying that that can't be because they were not from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. Is that because you believe that only Israel could have been saved during the Old Testament?

 

[Eugene]

Eugene,
I'm trying to follow you along here so before I work at answering your question I need to ask you.

I've said that there were people resurrected with Christ and obviously they had to be from the Old Testament time period up to the time of the resurrection.

Your saying that that can't be because they were not from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. Is that because you believe that only Israel could have been saved during the Old Testament?

Good question. No, because before Jacob there was no Israel. When discussing Revelation we're talking of the Church to begin with if I'm saying that correctly; chapters two and three dedicated to its judgment, rewards, and glory beginning with the Lord's Day.