Eternal security or conditional security?

[FreeGrace]

So your interpretation is based on what Paul did not say? Paul did not exclude eternal life, therefore he meant to say eternal life.

My understanding of what Paul said is in the WORDS that he WROTE. Not what he "didn't say". That argument belongs to the LOS types.

If Paul did not mean to include eternal life, why is there NO EVIDENCE of that in Scripture?

You don't even have to understand Paul to see how illogical that is.

What is totally illogical is to claim what Paul "didn't mean" when he wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable.

This very post violates the very position of LOS doctrine, which is that Paul "didn't mean" eternal life in the gifts of God that are irrevocable.

All the while being unable to prove that Paul never included eternal life as a gift that is irrevocable.

Might need a bandage for that foot that was just shot.

 

[FreeGrace]

Everything about OSAS is illogical - if it doesn't say this, then it means that.

OK, let's examine this claim.

It doesn't line up because Paul didn't say anything about eternal life or falling into unbelief.

Actually, he wrote QUITE A LOT about both subjects.

What he did say in Romans 9:4-5 is "They are Israelites, and to them belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen. Romans 9:4,5

Please explain what these verses have to do with God's gifts being irrevocable?

Re. Romans 11:29 Paul is talking about his countrymen, and the blessings that were to occur/happen to Abraham and his descendants, Gen. 26:4, especially to Jacob and his descendants. Romans 11: 26-27

Where would one conclude this?? Especially since there is NO MENTION of "gifts" in any of the so-called supporting passages noted?

You can see promises were made to Israel Romans 9:4-5, and we can infer the gifts and the call of God were promised, and we know God keeps his promises.

So, basically, your view is about promises, not actual gifts. Well, that is the whole problem with your view then. Rom 11:29 isn't about "promises" of God. They are about actual gifts of God.

The use of the phrase "we can INFER" reveals the other problem with your view. To infer is to conclude from evidence. Your view provides no evidence at all for the word "gifts" in Rom 11:29 to refer only to "promises".

Paul specifically described several gifts (not promises of gifts) of God before he wrote 11:29.



So this is why he said, the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.[/QUOTE]

 

[JLB]

Trying to conflate 2 different verses doesn't prove anything.

Does that mean you will stop trying to convince people that Romans 11:29 [which doesn't mention eternal life] plus Romans 6:23 conflated together somehow equal "eternal life is irrevocable"?

No sir, it doesn't. In fact.

Here are the plain words of scriptures with nothing added.

Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.


which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you...

To me this plainly means: The Gospel that I heard when I was first saved, in which I also stand today, is how I am saved... if I continue to hold fast that very word by which I was saved, when I first heard it preached and believed.

If I don't hold fast, today, the Gospel Message by which I was saved when I first believed, then what I believed when I was first saved was done in vain, because I haven't held fast to what I once believed, because I no longer believe.


Please share with us, what this passage means to you.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Paul specifically described several gifts (not promises of gifts) of God before he wrote 11:29.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

Eternal life being a gift of God, does not nullify or overrule that fact that the wages of sin is death.

I believe everyone knows eternal life can not be earned, but is a gift from God.

What is just as true, is the wages of sin is death.

We are given this gift, based on a condition, not based on earning eternal life, but based on a condition.


Your whole "theory" seems to be built from the idea, that because God has graciously granted to us the opportunity to receive the gift of eternal life in Christ Jesus, that there is somehow no condition involved to receive eternal life, or to remain in Christ Jesus.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Does that mean you will stop trying to convince people that Romans 11:29 [which doesn't mention eternal life] plus Romans 6:23 conflated together somehow equal "eternal life is irrevocable"?

There is no conflation between Rom 6:23 and Rom 11:29. They are directly related and relevant because both are about the gifts of God. The first verse tells us that eternal life is a gift of God, and the second verse tells us that God's gifts are irrevocable.

If Paul never meant to include the gift of eternal life in Rom 11:29, where is the clarifying verse to keep us from making such a "mistake"?

The truth is that Paul absolutely included the gift of eternal life in Rom 11:29. Please show anywhere in the Bible that teaches ANY gift of God is revocable, or has been revoked for ANY REASON.

If that can't be done, there is no reason to assume such a thing.

Here are the plain words of scriptures with nothing added.

Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you...

To me this plainly means: The Gospel that I heard when I was first saved, in which I also stand today, is how I am saved... if I continue to hold fast that very word by which I was saved, when I first heard it preached and believed.

If I don't hold fast, today, the Gospel Message by which I was saved when I first believed, then what I believed when I was first saved was done in vain, because I haven't held fast to what I once believed, because I no longer believe.

Please share with us, what this passage means to you.JLB

There is nothing more to share. Cygnus did an outstanding job of explaining 1 Cor 15:1-2, to show that it had nothing to do with anti-OSAS.

Because Paul was so clear about eternal life being a gift of God and that God's gifts are irrevocable, IF your understanding of 1 Cor 15:1-2 was correct, you'd have proven that the Bible is contradictory.

 

[MarkT]

So, basically, your view is about promises, not actual gifts. Well, that is the whole problem with your view then. Rom 11:29 isn't about "promises" of God. They are about actual gifts of God.

The use of the phrase "we can INFER" reveals the other problem with your view. To infer is to conclude from evidence. Your view provides no evidence at all for the word "gifts" in Rom 11:29 to refer only to "promises".

Paul specifically described several gifts (not promises of gifts) of God before he wrote 11:29.

Paul quotes the Scripture pertaining to Jacob Rom. 11:26-27 which precedes Rom. 11:29. So you can't say there is no evidence for my view (which is also Paul's view). It is evident that Paul is saying the gifts and the call of God were promised to Abraham and his descendants, especially to Jacob and his descendants. God did not forsake his people.
Psalm 105:8-10Revised Standard Version (RSV)
8 He is mindful of his covenant for ever,
of the word that he commanded, for a thousand generations,
9 the covenant which he made with Abraham,
his sworn promise to Isaac,
10 which he confirmed to Jacob as a statute,
to Israel as an everlasting covenant,

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Paul specifically described several gifts (not promises of gifts) of God before he wrote 11:29."

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

See? There is no mention of a promise here. Just the fact that eternal life is a gift of God.

Eternal life being a gift of God, does not nullify or overrule that fact that the wages of sin is death.

I don't believe anyone has argued that.

I believe everyone knows eternal life can not be earned, but is a gift from God.

Again, no one has argued that.

What is just as true, is the wages of sin is death.

Are you trying to suggest or teach that sin revokes the gift of eternal life???

We are given this gift, based on a condition, not based on earning eternal life, but based on a condition.

OK. So, please share with us the condition for HAVING eternal life.

Your whole "theory" seems to be built from the idea, that because God has graciously granted to us the opportunity to receive the gift of eternal life in Christ Jesus, that there is somehow no condition involved to receive eternal life, or to remain in Christ Jesus.
JLB

The first part of your sentence shows the error of LOS doctrine: there is nothing about any "opportunity to receive the gift of eternal life". Eternal life itself IS the gift that is irrevocable.

Again, please show ANY verse that speaks of ANY gift of God that is revocable, since your claim is that the gift of eternal life IS revocable. I don't believe ANY gift of God is revocable. But I will accept Scripture that actually teaches which gift or gifts of God ARE revocable.

And the second part of your sentence makes no sense. There IS a condition for receiving eternal life: believing in Jesus Christ as Savior. That is the ONLY condition.

Here are verses that prove my claim:

Salvation:

Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

What other conditions would one see in all these verses on how to have salvation/eternal life?

 

[FreeGrace]

Paul quotes the Scripture pertaining to Jacob Rom. 11:26-27 which precedes Rom. 11:29. So you can't say there is no evidence for my view (which is also Paul's view).

I will say it: there is NO evidence for your view. Paul NEVER described ANY promise of God as a gift. None.

It is evident that Paul is saying the gifts and the call of God were promised to Abraham and his descendants, especially to Jacob and his descendants. God did not forsake his people.

No, it is not evidence at all. His statement is about God's gifts, and he made NO comment about Abraham or Jacob or descendants having gifts of God.

Psalm 105:8-10Revised Standard Version (RSV)
8 He is mindful of his covenant for ever,
of the word that he commanded, for a thousand generations,
9 the covenant which he made with Abraham,
his sworn promise to Isaac,
10 which he confirmed to Jacob as a statute,
to Israel as an everlasting covenant,

Sorry, but I just don't see "gift/s" mentioned anywhere in this passage. What am I missing?

 

[MarkT]

I will say it: there is NO evidence for your view. Paul NEVER described ANY promise of God as a gift. None.

Show me where I said a promise is a gift. I said the gifts and the call of God were promised to Abraham and his descendants, especially Jacob and his descendants. Unless Paul quoted Scripture for no reason at all, my view is his view.

No, it is not evidence at all. His statement is about God's gifts, and he made NO comment about Abraham or Jacob or descendants having gifts of God.

That's your view.

Sorry, but I just don't see "gift/s" mentioned anywhere in this passage. What am I missing?

Why would you expect to see the word 'gifts'? Are you looking for Paul to refute your understanding of Paul?

 

[JLB]

There is no conflation between Rom 6:23 and Rom 11:29. They are directly related and relevant because both are about the gifts of God. The first verse tells us that eternal life is a gift of God, and the second verse tells us that God's gifts are irrevocable.

OSAS must take "part's" of each scripture, and ignore the other parts, and try and splice them together like a man made Frankenstein, doctrine.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

Those who meet the condition, are "in Christ Jesus".

Those who remain "in Christ Jesus", are those who in the end have eternal life.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Again, OSAS ignores the condition, which is to remain in Christ Jesus.

This relationship of the believer being joined to Christ Jesus, is plainly illustrated here in plain words, as a branch is joined to the Vine, in which the branch receives life from the Vine.

Without this relationship of the branch being joined to the Vine, it will wither and die, be gather up and thrown into the fire and burned.

We must "remain" in Christ Jesus to have eternal life, since this is the very definition of eternal life.

...the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17

What OSAS can not explain, is the simple truth that a person who is "in Christ Jesus", can indeed become at some point disconnected from, removed from, separated from, or un-joined from Him, as a branch becomes disconnected from the Vine in which it receives life.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:2,6

The condition of eternal life is to remain in Him, for ...the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


JLB

 

[JLB]

See? There is no mention of a promise here. Just the fact that eternal life is a gift of God.

You ignore the rest of the scripture -

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

The wages of sin is death.

8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8


See how plainly and clearly John, again warns us?


JLB

 

[JLB]

There is nothing more to share. Cygnus did an outstanding job of explaining 1 Cor 15:1-2, to show that it had nothing to do with anti-OSAS.

Because Paul was so clear about eternal life being a gift of God and that God's gifts are irrevocable, IF your understanding of 1 Cor 15:1-2 was correct, you'd have proven that the Bible is contradictory.

I asked you to explain what these very plain words from Paul mean to you.

To me this plainly means: The Gospel that I heard when I was first saved, in which I also stand today, is how I am saved... if I continue to hold fast that very word by which I was saved, when I first heard it preached and believed.

If I don't hold fast, today, the Gospel Message by which I was saved when I first believed, then what I believed when I was first saved was done in vain, because I haven't held fast to what I once believed, because I no longer believe

What phrase or sentence do you specifically dis-agree with ?


JLB

 

[Mike]

For those who have enjoyed all 56 pages and 1120 posts of this debate and wish it to continue, now more than ever to adhere to the rules of the A&T and the ToS in general. This discussion was just restored life after a 2-day vacation.

You're all regulars, and you know what we expect from fellow Christians in debate. If this thread gets dragged down again by neglecting our warnings, it may have to be on the permanently disabled list. So consider dem eggshells you walking in. Be careful to avoid snide remarks, claim another is lying, tell others what they believe, declare that your interpretation of scripture stands unless someone proves otherwise, and implying that others do not want to believe scripture.

This is probably your last change to demonstrate that you can and will adhere to the rules

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"I will say it: there is NO evidence for your view. Paul NEVER described ANY promise of God as a gift. None."

Show me where I said a promise is a gift. I said the gifts and the call of God were promised to Abraham and his descendants, especially Jacob and his descendants. Unless Paul quoted Scripture for no reason at all, my view is his view.

In your own words, above: "I said the gifts and the call of God WERE PROMISED to Abraham...". Neither Rom 6:23 or 11:29 are about promises. They are about God's actual gifts. Not promises of gifts.

 

[FreeGrace]

OSAS must take "part's" of each scripture, and ignore the other parts, and try and splice them together like a man made Frankenstein, doctrine.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

Those who meet the condition, are "in Christ Jesus".

Those who remain "in Christ Jesus", are those who in the end have eternal life.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Again, OSAS ignores the condition, which is to remain in Christ Jesus.

This relationship of the believer being joined to Christ Jesus, is plainly illustrated here in plain words, as a branch is joined to the Vine, in which the branch receives life from the Vine.

Without this relationship of the branch being joined to the Vine, it will wither and die, be gather up and thrown into the fire and burned.

We must "remain" in Christ Jesus to have eternal life, since this is the very definition of eternal life.

...the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17

What OSAS can not explain, is the simple truth that a person who is "in Christ Jesus", can indeed become at some point disconnected from, removed from, separated from, or un-joined from Him, as a branch becomes disconnected from the Vine in which it receives life.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:2,6

The condition of eternal life is to remain in Him, for ...the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
JLB

I will use the irrefutable application of logic to prove my understanding of Scripture.

IF "A" = "B", and IF "B" = "C", then "A" = "C".

In Rom 6:23 we have this:

Eternal life ("A") is a gift of God ("B"). Or, "A" = "B".

In Rom 11:29 we have this:

The gifts of God ("B") are irrevocable ("C"). Or, "B" = "C".

Therefore, eternal life ("A") = irrevocable ("C").

It is illogical to deny logic.

 

[FreeGrace]

You ignore the rest of the scripture -

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

The wages of sin is death.

8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8


See how plainly and clearly John, again warns us?
JLB

In post #1110 you said this about my posts:
"OSAS must take "part's" of each scripture, and ignore the other parts, and try and splice them together like a man made Frankenstein, doctrine."

This directly applies to what you've done here.

I've shown from logic why my understanding of Romans is correct.

Per your understanding, eternal life is revocable. Yet, there is no evidence from Scripture for that. In fact, Romans refutes that understanding.

 

[FreeGrace]

I asked you to explain what these very plain words from Paul mean to you.

I explained my understanding by referring to the excellent answer from another poster, who explains it better than I can.

What phrase or sentence do you specifically dis-agree with ?JLB

What I disagree with is the claim that one must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved. That is refuted by the plain fact that eternal life is a gift of God and that God's gifts are irrevocable.

Paul never mentioned any gift of God that is revocable, so there is no reason to think or assume that there are any gifts that are revocable.

Since Paul said that God's gifts are irrevocable, I believe that all of them are irrevocable.

 

[JLB]

I explained my understanding by referring to the excellent answer from another poster, who explains it better than I can.

Okay, if you can't explain what a scripture means yourself, then you are forced, like so many other's, to refer to commentary.

Please don't try are say that the scripture doesn't mean what it so plainly says, if you yourself have not been given any light from the Holt Spirit, to understand what a scripture means.

IOW, how can you possibly say... your interpretation is not right?

Please don't try to pit Scripture against Scripture. Paul's teaching about the gifts of God are SO crystal clear that I'm stunned that not everyone agrees. Paul did NOTHING to clarify in Romans or anywhere else that he never intended for anyone to think that he WAS including eternal life as gifts from God that are irrevocable.

Yes Paul's teaching on the subject is so crystal clear that anyone can read the plain words he says and understand that:

Christians who practice the works of the flesh, will not inherit the kingdom.

Christians who walk in unrighteousness are warned not to be a partaker of God's wrath.

5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:5-7

The bible warns us that God's people can indeed become a partaker of His wrath, if we live our lives in sin and unrighteousness, after having been forgiven and cleansed, and given the Holy Spirit, which is God's grace.


Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.



JLB

 

[veryberry]

Belief is something you do or don't do subconsciencly. You either believe something or you don't. Belief is not, waking up day in and day out making sure you believe. Or making sure that you believe something all together.
"Oh crap! Did I remember to believe yesterday? Did I loose my salvation?"

Romans 8:15 - For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry Abba Father.

People who believe that salvation can be lost, are indeed under bondage brought on by themselves and are living in fear. I know I would...

When I speak to someone about the gospel, one of two things will happen.

1. They walk away from the conversation and believe what they just heard with the result of being now justified unto eternal life and has become a son of God.

Or

2. They think it's hog wash and remain unjustified.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I will ask just one question: what does Eph 1:13, 14 and 4:30 teach then? What do the words mean?

It's interesting that those who disagree with my belief that Eph 1:13,14, and 4:30 teach ES and OSAS always use other verses as if that proves that these verses "simply can't" be teaching ES or OSAS.

So, if that is true, then just WHAT do they teach????

Surely they teach something. So what is it they are teaching????

Oh, almost forgot to address this before I leave...

Ephesians 1:13,14 NASB and Ephesians 4:30 NASB teach exactly what they plainly say: When a person believes they are sealed with the Holy Spirit. What it does not say is that seal can not be removed. 'Sealed' does not mean by definition 'unable to be unsealed'. You have to add that interpretation of the word 'sealed' to get that because it surely does not say that there. So, what OSAS has to do is prove that 'sealed' by definition means 'not able to be unsealed'.

And in doing that it has to be careful to not use circular reasoning in the attempt to do that. See, it's not right to say, "oh, salvation can't be lost, therefore, the seal of the Holy Spirit in Ephesians 1:13 can not be removed", and then use Ephesians 1:13 as proof that the Holy Spirit can not be removed. That's called circular reasoning.