Eternal security or conditional security?

[veryberry]

Oh, almost forgot to address this before I leave...

Ephesians 1:13,14 NASB and Ephesians 4:30 NASB teach exactly what they plainly say: When a person believes they are sealed with the Holy Spirit. What it does not say is that seal can not be removed. 'Sealed' does not mean by definition 'unable to be unsealed'. You have to add that interpretation of the word 'sealed' to get that because it surely does not say that there. So, what OSAS has to do is prove that 'sealed' by definition means 'not able to be unsealed'.

And in doing that it has to be careful to not use circular reasoning in the attempt to do that. See, it's not right to say, "oh, salvation can't be lost, therefore, the seal of the Holy Spirit in Ephesians 1:13 can not be removed", and then use Ephesians 1:13 as proof that the Holy Spirit can not be removed. That's called circular reasoning.

Well it does say sealed. Verse 14, also describes the length of this sealed..."until redemption". Which is also confirmed in Ephesians 4:30 - And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are SEALED UNTO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION.

So, a person is not unsealed do to the time frame of what the passage expresses. If a person does become deceived and fall in unbelief, then that person would be grieving the Holy Spirit, but are still sealed.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Belief is something you do or don't do subconsciencly. You either believe something or you don't. Belief is not, waking up day in and day out making sure you believe.

I think you're confusing the conviction of truth that comes by the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person with then actually believing and trusting in the truth that he is speaking. The ability to know something is true that you can't see is the gracious gift of faith (Hebrews 11:1 NASB). (Which, by the way, IS revocable, though it's a gift of God). From there a person either chooses to trust in and believe what God has graciously revealed to him to be true, or he walks away from it, casting it away from him not retaining it in his heart (1 John 5:10 NASB).

The responsibility of the believer is to keep trusting in that which he heard in the beginning and keep it in his heart through the same gracious gift of faith (the ability to know what you can't see is really true) through which he first trusted in God's forgiveness.

Or making sure that you believe something all together.
"Oh crap! Did I remember to believe yesterday? Did I loose my salvation?"

Your life is how you can tell if you are still trusting in the gospel of forgiveness, and not simply agreeing with God's Spirit who told you it's true. Just knowing the gospel is true through God's gracious gift of faith does not equate to actually trusting in it, and continuing to trust in it. That trusting is the condition upon which you were saved at first, and which must continue to be satisfied right up to the Day of Judgment in order for you to be saved on that Day. The person who holds the truth God spoke in his heart, trusting in it, is the one who will continue to have the Son and will, therefore, continue to have eternal life:

24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
25This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life." (1 John 2:24-25 NASB)

"9Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son." (2 John 1:9 NASB)

"12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:12 NASB)

 

[JLB]

People who believe that salvation can be lost, are indeed under bondage brought on by themselves and are living in fear. I know I would...

Can you post a scripture for this opinion of yours?

People who have the fear of the Lord, have within them a fountain of life... to turn them away from the snares of death.

The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life,
To turn one away from the snares of death.
Proverbs 14:27


The fear of the Lord is a Spirit.

Jesus's delight is in the fear of the Lord.

There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse,
And a Branch shall grow out of his roots.
2 The Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him,
The Spirit of wisdom and understanding,
The Spirit of counsel and might,
The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord.

3 His delight is in the fear of the Lord,
And He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes,
Nor decide by the hearing of His ears;
Isaiah 11:1-3


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So, a person is not unsealed do to the time frame of what the passage expresses.

And without the many other scriptures that teach otherwise this all by itself isolated from the other scriptures would be a good argument. But as it is, the passages I just quoted above show us eternal life is conditioned on a person having, and continuing to have, the Son of God by abiding in the word God spoken to them through his gracious gift of faith in the beginning. Those who don't continue to believe in the word they first heard don't continue to have the Son, and as a result, do not have eternal life.

 

[JLB]

Well it does say sealed. Verse 14, also describes the length of this sealed..."until redemption". Which is also confirmed in Ephesians 4:30 - And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are SEALED UNTO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION.

The seal is a seal of approval, set upon those who believe and obey, IOW those who have repented.

The Holy Spirit is God's seal of approval upon those who believe and obey the Gospel.

There is a condition that must be met: Believe.

If you have a scripture that shows those who believe for a while then no longer believe are still have this seal, then please post it for us.



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

People who believe that salvation can be lost, are indeed under bondage brought on by themselves and are living in fear. I know I would...

My continuing faith (that is, trust) in God is exactly why I DON'T fear for my salvation. It is the person who has weak faith, or has lost their faith, they are the one's who fear the coming Judgment.

I think you're probably a very honest and thoughtful person. Read this carefully and tell me what you think, if you want:

14We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death. 15Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 16We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17But whoever has the world’s goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him? 18Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. 19We will know by this that we are of the truth, and will assure our heart before Him 20in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things. 21Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God" (1 John 3:14-21 NASB)

16We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world. 18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. " (1 John 4:16-18 NASB)

See, confidence comes from faith--faith in action, not from a doctrine of OSAS that deceitfully removes the impending Judgment for the one who is now in unbelief and has a lack of works because of that unbelief.

 

[MarkT]

Sorry, but I just don't see "gift/s" mentioned anywhere in this passage. What am I missing?

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 “and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.” Romans 11:26-27

Do you see the free gift of righteousness through Jesus Christ? Romans 5:17

What can not be broken? The gift or the covenant?

 

[reba]

The covenant God made with Abraham was conditioned on Abraham's obedience.
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
as it was for Moses
Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

and another
Lev 26:13 I am the LORD your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your yoke, and made you go upright.
Lev 26:14 But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments;
Lev 26:15 And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant:

 

[veryberry]

Can you post a scripture for this opinion of yours?

People who have the fear of the Lord, have within them a fountain of life... to turn them away from the snares of death.

The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life,
To turn one away from the snares of death.
Proverbs 14:27


The fear of the Lord is a Spirit.

Jesus's delight is in the fear of the Lord.

There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse,
And a Branch shall grow out of his roots.
2 The Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him,
The Spirit of wisdom and understanding,
The Spirit of counsel and might,
The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord.

3 His delight is in the fear of the Lord,
And He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes,
Nor decide by the hearing of His ears;
Isaiah 11:1-3


JLB

I kinda did? If a person has fear of loosing salvation, then that person will do fleshly works to try and ensure his/her salvation. This will be called "living after the flesh". Described in the versuses previous to the one I posted. Living after the flesh is not speaking about lost sinners, but lost justified people trying to live unto God by their own power.

There are many difinitions of the word fear.

The definition of fear in the verse posted, I believe means "afraid", while the definition in the versus that you posted is more of a respect or in aww type fear. Hard to explain I guess. But if your in training for a job, your going to have a certain type of fear for your instructor. But it doesn't mean that you are afraid of him.

 

[veryberry]

The seal is a seal of approval, set upon those who believe and obey, IOW those who have repented.

The Holy Spirit is God's seal of approval upon those who believe and obey the Gospel.

There is a condition that must be met: Believe.

If you have a scripture that shows those who believe for a while then no longer believe are still have this seal, then please post it for us.



JLB

It is my understanding, that if anything was talking about "approval", then it would have some form of "approve in the verse". Much like it does in many passages.

Generally when the word "sealed" is being used, it is talking about something being sealed, such as an envelope or scroll that no man can unseal.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The covenant God made with Abraham was conditioned on Abraham's obedience.
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Yes, his works being the 'showing' of his faith:
"...I will show you my faith by my works.” (James 2:18 NASB)

Which is what the Israelites didn't get. They pursued the covenant blessing of justification as if it were by works alone, and not by "faith working through love (works)" (Galatans 5:6 NASB italics mine):

"31but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law (a 'law' of faith for justification. See context). 32Why? Because they did not pursue it (justification) by faith, but as though it (justification) were by works." (Romans 9:31 NASB italics in original, parenthesis mine)

But the church at large has erroneously understood Paul's works vs. faith argument as meaning works do not have to accompany faith, and even should not, for that faith to be a faith that can justify all by itself. I've been saying for years in forums that I believe this is the very misunderstanding that has given strength to the OSAS doctrine and other false doctrines in this church of the last times. The church that the Bible says will be swollen with the leaven of false teaching...and a lack of love.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Generally when the word "sealed" is being used, it is talking about something being sealed, such as an envelope or scroll that no man can unseal.

Well, I agree that it is God who does the sealing and unsealing. But the point is, he does that in response to man's faith, or lack thereof.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I kinda did? If a person has fear of loosing salvation, then that person will do fleshly works to try and ensure his/her salvation.

The word 'ensure' almost got past me.
Did you know that's what the Bible tells us to do ('ensure his/her salvation')?

"10Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things (see vs. 5-9), you will never stumble..." (2 Peter 1:10 NASB)

He's not saying do the things he listed to make yourself righteous, and therefore, justified/saved. But rather do those things to gain the assurance that you really do believe and have eternal life. He tells us this so that the person who fears for his salvation can know for himself if he really is saved, or not. If after he finds out by his lack of works that he really isn't saved after all, he then proceeds to do those works in the hope of justifying himself, well that's his problem. That's certainly not a lack, or problem with the doctrine of 'make your calling election sure' found in the Bible (see Hebrews 6:11 too).

 

[MarkT]

2 Timothy 2:12-14Revised Standard Version (RSV)
12 if we endure, we shall also reign with him;
if we deny him, he also will deny us;
13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful—

for he cannot deny himself.

Man can break faith with God, but God can not break faith with himself.

God is faithful though we be faithless. He is ever mindful of his covenant.

Psalm 105:8-10Revised Standard Version (RSV)

8 He is mindful of his covenant for ever,

of the word that he commanded, for a thousand generations,

9 the covenant which he made with Abraham,

his sworn promise to Isaac,

10 which he confirmed to Jacob as a statute,

to Israel as an everlasting covenant,

So, in a manner of speaking, the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.

 

[JLB]

It is my understanding, that if anything was talking about "approval", then it would have some form of "approve in the verse". Much like it does in many passages.

Generally when the word "sealed" is being used, it is talking about something being sealed, such as an envelope or scroll that no man can unseal.

Strong's G4972 - sphragizō

to set a seal upon, mark with a seal, to seal

1. for security: from Satan
2. since things sealed up are concealed (as the contents of a letter), to hide, keep in silence, keep secret
3. in order to mark a person or a thing
   1. to set a mark upon by the impress of a seal or a stamp
   2. angels are said to be sealed by God
4. in order to prove, confirm, or attest a thing
   1. to confirm authenticate, place beyond doubt
      1. of a written document
      2. to prove one's testimony to a person that he is what he professes to be
         

You have completely misunderstood and mis-applied the word seal, in the context of what was being said.

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Ephesians 1:13-14

... the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession.

Those who having heard and believed the Gospel, were sealed.

These seal is for those who believe, and is our guarantee of our INHERITANCE, until the redemption of the purchased possession.

Our inheritance is the salvation of our soul which we will receive at the end of our faith. 1 Peter 1:9

In the same letter to the Ephesians, this same Paul writes to them and warns them, that they will not inherit the kingdom of God, which is to not have any inheritance in God's kingdom.

If a person does not have any inheritance in their fathers estate, then they do not obtain any inheritance.


What OSAS tries to teach is that a person who does not inherit the kingdom of God, and has NO INHERITANCE in God's Kingdom, somehow is still is granted the same thing as a person who does inherit God's Kingdom, and does have an inheritance.

3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.
Ephesians 5:3-7


It's easy to see that Paul plainly links the wrath of God, with those who don't have any inheritance in the Kingdom of God.

...has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.

... because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.

... do not be partakers with them.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Okay, if you can't explain what a scripture means yourself, then you are forced, like so many other's, to refer to commentary.

Your opinion has no bearing on what I believe. I have simply deferred to the explanation of someone else, who has explained 1 Cor 15:1-2 very adequately, and is easily accessed in this thread.

Furthermore, there are no verses in the Bible that contradict any other verse, nor verses that "trump" any other verses .

And, I have already shown that Paul taught that eternal life is an irrevocable gift.

Scholars agree that the book of Romans has more theology than any other book. And Paul's teaching on eternal security is uncompromisingly clear and straight forward.

It is illogical to try to claim that eternal life is revocable, since Paul was so clear about it being irrevocable.

Please don't try are say that the scripture doesn't mean what it so plainly says, if you yourself have not been given any light from the Holt Spirit, to understand what a scripture means.

1 Cor 15:1-2 says that those who have believed the gospel possess the gospel and are saved by believing that gospel. It says nothing about having to continue to believe in order to continue to be saved.

IOW, how can you possibly say... your interpretation is not right?

Why would anyone say that their interpretation is "not right"?? The question doesn't make sense.

Yes Paul's teaching on the subject is so crystal clear that anyone can read the plain words he says and understand that:...

Was Paul clear about eternal life being a gift of God? Yes or no.
Was Paul clear about God's gifts being irrevocable? Yes or no.
What is not clear about eternal life being irrevocable? Please explain.

Christians who practice the works of the flesh, will not inherit the kingdom.

Christians who walk in unrighteousness are warned not to be a partaker of God's wrath.

Yes, these are very clear verses. And neither of these (nor any other verse) contradict the fact that eternal life is an irrevocable gift of God.

5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:5-7

The bible warns us that God's people can indeed become a partaker of His wrath, if we live our lives in sin and unrighteousness, after having been forgiven and cleansed, and given the Holy Spirit, which is God's grace.

Correct. It's what I've been saying all along. To be a partaker of His wrath means to feel His divine discipline. Heb 12 speaks of punishment for His children. Would it be reasonable or logical to assume that only means a slight slap on the hand for being naughty? I think not.

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.
JLB

I really have no idea why anyone would think there is anything in Eph 5:5-7 that teaches loss of salvation.

In fact, Paul was clear about not having an inheritance IN the kingdom. He said nothing about not entering the kingdom, which is how I am "hearing" your interpretation of the verses.

It should be clear that there is a difference between entering the kingdom and having an inheritance in the kingdom. Why should anyone assume that they mean the same thing? Please explain.

 

[FreeGrace]

Oh, almost forgot to address this before I leave...

Ephesians 1:13,14 NASB and Ephesians 4:30 NASB teach exactly what they plainly say: When a person believes they are sealed with the Holy Spirit. What it does not say is that seal can not be removed.

Please don't also forget FOR what purpose every believer is sealed: for the day of redemption. That is key. That speaks directly to our salvation. We are sealed for salvation.

'Sealed' does not mean by definition 'unable to be unsealed'. You have to add that interpretation of the word 'sealed' to get that because it surely does not say that there.

Once again we see how LOS doctrine MUST assume something that isn't in Scripture. That being, this specific sealing with the Holy Spirit "can" be broken. Why assume what the Scriptures NEVER describe???

What LOS doctrine must do is treat this specific sealing like any other common tangible seal that is designed to be broken, as if that "example" shows that even this specific seal was meant to be broken. But that's just more assumption. Believers are sealed FOR the day of redemption. And LOS doctrine HAS NOT explained what that means.

So, what OSAS has to do is prove that 'sealed' by definition means 'not able to be unsealed'.

There is no evidence in Scripture of this specific seal being broken for any reason by anyone. So I would NEVER assume something that is not taught or shown to be true in Scripture.

My theology and doctrines are NOT determined by assumption.

And in doing that it has to be careful to not use circular reasoning in the attempt to do that. See, it's not right to say, "oh, salvation can't be lost, therefore, the seal of the Holy Spirit in Ephesians 1:13 can not be removed"

If there is any evidence in Scripture of this specific seal being broken by any means, please share. Otherwise, I never assume what the Scriptures don't teach.

and then use Ephesians 1:13 as proof that the Holy Spirit can not be removed. That's called circular reasoning.

Because Paul also added in Eph 4:30 that believers are sealed FOR THE DAY OF REDEMPTION, I am absolutely confident that this specific seal cannot be broken by any means or for any reason.

And LOS doctrine has not provided any evidence from Scripture of this specific seal being broken, or any warning of how it might be broken.

No, we can safely conclude that those who have been sealed with the Holy Spirit have been redeemed and will enter the kingdom.

iow, believers are sealed FOR a purpose; the day of redemption. There is no wriggle room in that statement.

What verse warns of any activity or reason that can break this seal for the day of redemption.

If LOS were true, why did Paul write Eph 4:30? And why did he described eternal life as a gift of God, then write that God's gifts are irrevocable, and NOT provide any statement to exclude eternal life as an irrevocable gift?

These questions have not been answered by LOS doctrine.

 

[FreeGrace]

Can you post a scripture for this opinion of yours?

This is a great question and one that I frequently ask of those who hold to LOS doctrine.

 

[FreeGrace]

The seal is a seal of approval, set upon those who believe and obey, IOW those who have repented.

Can you post a scripture for this opinion of yours?

The Holy Spirit is God's seal of approval upon those who believe and obey the Gospel.

There is a condition that must be met: Believe.

If you have a scripture that shows those who believe for a while then no longer believe are still have this seal, then please post it for us.
JLB

I never assume what Scriptures never teach. Which verse or verses teach that salvation is conditioned on continuing to believe?

 

[FreeGrace]

My continuing faith (that is, trust) in God is exactly why I DON'T fear for my salvation. It is the person who has weak faith, or has lost their faith, they are the one's who fear the coming Judgment.

That is interesting. Yet, King Saul, who certainly qualifies as having a weak faith at best, was told by Samuel that he would be joining Samuel the following day. And I think it is safe to say that Samuel went to Paradise after he died, which is where all believers went before Christ rose from the grave. 1 Sam 28:19 - “Moreover the LORD will also give over Israel along with you into the hands of the Philistines, therefore tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. Indeed the LORD will give over the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines!”

Why would Samuel, a saved believer in the Messiah only mean that Saul would be in the grave the next day? How does that make sense? Samuel was a believer and entered Paradise, where all saved OT believers went. The Bible is clear that Saul, in spite of the details of his death, joined Samuel in Paradise.

And, we know the details of Saul's physical death in 1 Kings 10:13-14 -
13 So Saul died for his trespass which he committed against the LORD, because of the word of the LORD which he did not keep; and also because he asked counsel of a medium, making inquiry of it,
14 and did not inquire of the LORD. Therefore He killed him and turned the kingdom to David the son of Jesse.

I think you're probably a very honest and thoughtful person. Read this carefully and tell me what you think, if you want:

14We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death. 15Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 16We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17But whoever has the world’s goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him? 18Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. 19We will know by this that we are of the truth, and will assure our heart before Him 20in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things. 21Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God" (1 John 3:14-21 NASB)

16We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world. 18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. " (1 John 4:16-18 NASB)

See, confidence comes from faith--faith in action, not from a doctrine of OSAS that deceitfully removes the impending Judgment for the one who is now in unbelief and has a lack of works because of that unbelief.

No, I don't see anything like what is described here. I understand 1 John as being about fellowship, which it appears has no place in LOS theology and doctrine.

Unless one understands fellowship and the theme of 1 John, I don't believe anyone can understand what was written. So there's no point in trying to explain it.

As often as I've already explained the concept of fellowship, and the reaction I've gotten to it, it seems clear to me that LOS doctrine has no place for it.

If there is a place for fellowship in LOS doctrine, I'd be interested to know where it is and what it is.