Eternal security or conditional security?

[FreeGrace]

The covenant God made with Abraham was conditioned on Abraham's obedience.
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
as it was for Moses
Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

and another
Lev 26:13 I am the LORD your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your yoke, and made you go upright.
Lev 26:14 But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments;
Lev 26:15 And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant:

Neither of these are about salvation. Paul taught that Abraham was credited with righteousness on the basis of faith, not on-going obedience. Rom 4:1-5.

 

[FreeGrace]

Well, I agree that it is God who does the sealing and unsealing. But the point is, he does that in response to man's faith, or lack thereof.

What verse speaks of God unsealing any of His seals? And, specifically, what verse speaks of God unsealing the seal that Paul taught about in Eph?

Furthermore, Eph 1:13 is clear; only those who believe are sealed. Unbelievers are not sealed.

So, one must prove from Scripture that a believer can be unsealed. I don't believe that there are any such verses.

 

[FreeGrace]

The word 'ensure' almost got past me.
Did you know that's what the Bible tells us to do ('ensure his/her salvation')?

"10Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things (see vs. 5-9), you will never stumble..." (2 Peter 1:10 NASB)

Peter did not write about ensuring one's salvation, as is being claimed here. He wrote about confirming one's election. Now I know that will lead to all kinds of off-track posts about election, but basically, no one is elected to salvation. There are no verses that say so. It says, rather, that believers are elected to be holy and blameless - Eph 1:4.

 

[JLB]

Your opinion has no bearing on what I believe. I have simply deferred to the explanation of someone else, who has explained 1 Cor 15:1-2 very adequately, and is easily accessed in this thread.

Furthermore, there are no verses in the Bible that contradict any other verse, nor verses that "trump" any other verses .

And, I have already shown that Paul taught that eternal life is an irrevocable gift.

Scholars agree that the book of Romans has more theology than any other book. And Paul's teaching on eternal security is uncompromisingly clear and straight forward.

It is illogical to try to claim that eternal life is revocable, since Paul was so clear about it being irrevocable.

No one has ever posted a scripture that teaches this.

It's simply not found in the bible.

OSAS has taken a part of one scripture, while ignoring the other part, and tried to "splice" it with another scripture that says the gifts and calling are irrevocable.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23


How can anyone think they have the right to take a part of one scripture, while ignoring the other part, and try to stitch the part of one scripture with another, to come up with some "doctrine' that supposedly "overrules" all other scripture.

You have claimed over and over, that will not inherit the kingdom of God, can not possibly mean "no salvation", because romans 11:29 says eternal life is irrevocable.


The problem arises when a person examines the scripture Romans 11:29 and discovers that it doesn't say "eternal life is irrevocable".

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29


Then when an honest study of the context is examined, we find that there were indeed some who were broken off, and removed from Covenant Relationship with the Lord, BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF.

20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. Romans 11:20-22

This context applies to the Church, to Christians, to believers in Christ, as the language dictates...

...if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
... Otherwise you also will be cut off.


Here is Romans 6:23 and Romans 11:29, written out and compared together.


For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

The wages of sin is death. This truth must be fully considered when constructing doctrine from the scriptures.

OSAS does not consider this truth from the scriptures, even though it is plainly stated for us here in Romans 6:23

...the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Eternal life is "in" Christ.

Where in these two scriptures does it say, it's impossible for a person to be removed from Christ or disconnected from Christ, once they are "in Christ"?

Jesus Christ Himself plainly explained that we must "remain" in Him.

Those who are in Him, and joined to Him, that is to say "have Him", or are "partakers of Him", indeed have eternal life.

What OSAS refuses to address is that it is indeed possibly to become "disconnected from Him" through unbelief, just exactly like Romans 11 teaches, and just like John 15:2,6 teaches.

• How can you receive the forgiveness of sins in this life, as we all makes mistakes, and we all are in the process of being transformed, if you no longer believe in Christ, the only one who can forgive your sins?

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

We must continue to remain connected to Him, joined to Him, to have the eternal life that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.




JLB

 

[JLB]

Furthermore, Eph 1:13 is clear; only those who believe are sealed. Unbelievers are not sealed.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

...lest they should believe and be saved.

Believe = Saved

...who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

If a person believes for a while then falls away... do they still believe?

No, a person who believes for a while, then falls away, and no longer believes, have returned to unbelieving.

Those who believe for a while, are saved for a while.

As it is written... The unbelieving will have there part in the lake of fire.

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8


JLB

 

[JLB]

This is a great question and one that I frequently ask of those who hold to LOS doctrine.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

Will not inherit the kingdom of God.


JLB

 

[JLB]

What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Did Abraham continue to believe/obey God?

Are you saying those who are unrighteous will inherit God's Kingdom?

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

This is what I said:
"Your opinion has no bearing on what I believe. I have simply deferred to the explanation of someone else, who has explained 1 Cor 15:1-2 very adequately, and is easily accessed in this thread.

Furthermore, there are no verses in the Bible that contradict any other verse, nor verses that "trump" any other verses .

And, I have already shown that Paul taught that eternal life is an irrevocable gift.

Scholars agree that the book of Romans has more theology than any other book. And Paul's teaching on eternal security is uncompromisingly clear and straight forward.

It is illogical to try to claim that eternal life is revocable, since Paul was so clear about it being irrevocable."

No one has ever posted a scripture that teaches this.

It's simply not found in the bible.

I don't know what is being referred to by this comment. Please clarify.

OSAS has taken a part of one scripture, while ignoring the other part, and tried to "splice" it with another scripture that says the gifts and calling are irrevocable.

So, after proving that eternal life is an irrevocable gift of God from logic, one can only disagree by using illogic. That would be an interesting approach.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

Clear as can be. Eternal life is a gift of God.

Then, Paul wrote this:
"for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." in Rom 11:29.

Once again, from irrefutable logic that says "if A = B and B = C, then A = C.

A = eternal life
B = gift of God
C= irrevocable

How is any of this in error or wrong?

How can anyone think they have the right to take a part of one scripture, while ignoring the other part, and try to stitch the part of one scripture with another, to come up with some "doctrine' that supposedly "overrules" all other scripture.

Nothing overrules anything in Scripture. That's no different than saying that Scripture contradicts itself.

From logic, we see that eternal life is irrevocable. There are no verses that overrule that FACT.

You have claimed over and over, that will not inherit the kingdom of God, can not possibly mean "no salvation", because romans 11:29 says eternal life is irrevocable.

How could it be otherwise? How can one lose eternal life when Paul said that God's gifts are irrevocable, AND, there are NO verses that teach that eternal life has been excluded from Rom 11:29????

The problem arises when a person examines the scripture Romans 11:29 and discovers that it doesn't say "eternal life is irrevocable".

It says PRECISELY that God's gifts are irrevocable.

So, now the question remains: what verse excludes eternal life from the gifts of God that are irrevocable?

If none can be found, then WHY would anyone believe that eternal life can be revoked???

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29

What I clearly notice here is that Paul did NOT exclude eternal life from the gifts of God that are irrevocable.

So, IF any of God's gifts can be revoked, why did Paul not make that claim to keep things clear??

Then when an honest study of the context is examined, we find that there were indeed some who were broken off, and removed from Covenant Relationship with the Lord, BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF.

Please show from exegesis that being "broken off" equals to revocation of eternal life.

20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. Romans 11:20-22

It's interesting how one will complain that the words "eternal life" don't occur in Rom 11:29 as if that proves that Paul was not referring to eternal life and yet offers verses that ALSO don't mention eternal life or loss of it.

iow, you are guilty of what you've charged me with.

Here is Romans 6:23 and Romans 11:29, written out and compared together.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

The wages of sin is death. This truth must be fully considered when constructing doctrine from the scriptures.

OSAS does not consider this truth from the scriptures, even though it is plainly stated for us here in Romans 6:23

...the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Eternal life is "in" Christ.

Where in these two scriptures does it say, it's impossible for a person to be removed from Christ or disconnected from Christ, once they are "in Christ"?

Again, guilty of what I'm being charged with. Mixing verses and only taking parts of one verse with parts of other verses and ignoring the rest.

Paul taught eternal security in Eph 1:13,14 and 4:30. All believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit FOR the day of redemption. Unless one can prove that being sealed FOR the day redemption means something other than being sealed unto eternity, I will continue to believe that "for the day of redemption" refers to when believers will receive their glorified bodies and live with God forever. iow, OSAS and ES.

Jesus Christ Himself plainly explained that we must "remain" in Him.

I have provided a very reasonable explanation of what that means. It is about fellowship, a concept that I don't find in LOS doctrine or theology.

What OSAS refuses to address is that it is indeed possibly to become "disconnected from Him" through unbelief, just exactly like Romans 11 teaches, and just like John 15:2,6 teaches.

Where we absolutely disagree is that I believe that being "disconnected from Him" can ONLY mean loss of fellowship, and NEVER mean loss of salvation. We are sealed for the day of redemption, so how can one be "severed" (your word) from Christ?

If your interpretation of Rom 11 and being "disconnected" means loss of salvation, that would mean that Paul was wrong about believers being sealed for the day of redemption.

If salvation could be lost, Paul SHOULD have written that believers are sealed; some for redemption, and some for condemnation to show that some believers will not make it to heaven.

But he didn't. Not even close.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Furthermore, Eph 1:13 is clear; only those who believe are sealed. Unbelievers are not sealed."

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

...lest they should believe and be saved.

Believe = Saved

...who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

If a person believes for a while then falls away... do they still believe?

No, and irrelevant. Because eternal life is an irrevocable gift and all who have believed are sealed for the day of redemption.

I believe these 2 concepts refute the LOS doctrine.

No, a person who believes for a while, then falls away, and no longer believes, have returned to unbelieving.

Those who believe for a while, are saved for a while.

This idea has NOT been shown from Scripture. It is therefore an opinion, based on assumption. I do not form my theology and doctrines from either of those.

As it is written... The unbelieving will have there part in the lake of fire.

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8JLB

I strongly disagree with the opinion that a believer who ceases to believe is referred to in Scripture as an "unbeliever". There is no evidence of that, so I reject that terminology. The Bible does describe those who have fallen away from the faith as apostates in 1 Tim 4:1. But the Bible NEVER calls one who has believed and then falls away as an unbeliever.

 

[FreeGrace]

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

Will not inherit the kingdom of God.JLB

For sure. They will not have inheritance in the kingdom. It has not been shown or proven that "not inherit" equals loss of salvation.

 

[JLB]

For sure. They will not have inheritance in the kingdom. It has not been shown or proven that "not inherit" equals loss of salvation.

Of course it has been shown, countless times.

Edited for content
The word rewards is not mentioned, but inheriting the Kingdom of God.

Inheriting the Kingdom of God, itself, as opposed to inheriting any other kingdom.

What Kingdom would a person inherit, if they did not inherit the kingdom of God?

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21

3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.
Ephesians 5:3-7


Paul goes even further to clarify what that means by saying...

...because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.Therefore do not be partakers with them.


Jesus Christ Himself, defined what "inherit the kingdom" means.

Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:34


Those who are welcome into the Kingdom, prepared by God the Father, for the blessed.


Everyone else who doesn't inherit the Kingdom of God, will inherit the same thing as the devil and his angels.

They will hear these words -

“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41



JLB

 

[MarkT]

What do we see in Romans 11:29? A call is something you hear; the Shepherd calling his sheep. A gift is something you receive; the Spirit of truth, a believing heart, wisdom, knowledge and understanding, insight, the forgiveness of sin, the righteousness of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, sanctification and its end, eternal life. "But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life." Romans 6:22 These things are irrevocable, in a manner of speaking, because they proceed from the mouth of God. For it is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ Matthew 4:4

Is Paul preaching a new gospel? No. If Paul was preaching the eternal security of anyone who ever once believed and then fell into unbelief, that would be a strange gospel; then it would certainly be a new gospel. Fortunately the Spirit lets us understand his manner of speaking.

The gospel of Jesus Christ teaches endurance to the end, faith, hope, love, courage, steadfastness. Falling away from the truth is not an option. So to that end we exhort the disciples to continue in the faith, like Paul did.

Acts 14:21-23Revised Standard Version (RSV)
21 When they had preached the gospel to that city and had made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Ico′nium and to Antioch, 22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God. 23 And when they had appointed elders for them in every church, with prayer and fasting, they committed them to the Lord in whom they believed.

 

[FreeGrace]

Of course it has been shown, countless times.

What has been shown did not prove the claim.

The word rewards is not mentioned, but inheriting the Kingdom of God.

Neither is the phrase "loss of salvation" or "loss of eternal life" or "revocation of eternal life" or any other similarly worded phrases to indicate that one who has believed can end up in the lake of fire.

Inheriting the Kingdom of God, itself, as opposed to inheriting any other kingdom.

Except there is no comparison made about "any other kingdom".

Where would one think that by not inheriting the kingdom equates to inheriting the devil's kingdom?

In fact, the devil himself will be cast into the lake of fire, and he sure won't be in charge there.

What Kingdom would a person inherit, if they did not inherit the kingdom of God?

3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.
Ephesians 5:3-7

The other 2 parallel passages speak of "not inheriting the kingdom" and this one speaks of having "no inheritance IN the kingdom". But all three passages are parallel. The point is that none of the 3 passages (here and 1 Cor 6 and Gal 5) say anything about loss of salvation. That is only assumed from an "interpretation" of what "not inheriting the kingdom" and "have no inheritance IN the kingdom" means.

But since God's gifts are irrevocable, AND eternal life is a gift of God, AND there is NO evidence from Scripture that any of God's gifts are revocable, none of the 3 passages can be teaching that one can lose salvation.

In fact, 1 Cor 3:14 and 15 teach what can be lost, all the while still being saved: rewards.
14 If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Those believers who will "suffer loss" will lose a reward, but "he himself will be saved". I can't imagine how to say it any more clear than how Paul stated it.

How does LOS doctrine explain these 2 verses? What are they teaching?

Paul goes even further to clarify what that means by saying...

...because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.Therefore do not be partakers with them.

Exactly!! God's divine discipline or punishment for disobedient children.
Heb 12:6 - because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son NIV

Jesus Christ Himself, defined what "inherit the kingdom" means.

Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:34

This doesn't disprove what 1 Cor 3:14 and 15 teaches about reward and loss of reward.

Everyone else who doesn't inherit the Kingdom of God, will inherit the same thing as the devil and his angels.

They will hear these words -

“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41JLB

Where does the Bible mention anything about any kind of devilish inheritance?? Not this verse? So where?

I find a lot of assumption found within LOS doctrine. But no clear cut evidence from Scripture.

otoh, Scripture plainly says that eternal life is a gift of God, AND God's gifts are irrevocable, AND there are no verses about eternal life being excluded from the gifts of God that are irrevocable, OR any verses about any of God's gifts being revocable.

 

[JLB]

What has been shown did not prove the claim.

This is a typical reply from OSAS, in the face of overwhelming irrefutable proof from the word of God, concerning those who choose to live ungodly and wicked lives after they have repented, and confessed Jesus as Lord, and been forgiven their sins.


The word rewards is not mentioned, but inheriting the Kingdom of God.

Inheriting the Kingdom of God, itself, as opposed to inheriting any other kingdom, or anything else.

The devil and his angels who did not inherit the kingdom of God, are sent into the everlasting fire.

What Kingdom would a person inherit, if they did not inherit the kingdom of God?

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21

3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.
Ephesians 5:3-7


Paul goes even further to clarify what that means by saying...

...because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.Therefore do not be partakers with them.


Jesus Christ Himself, defined what "inherit the kingdom" means.

Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:34


Those who are welcome into the Kingdom, prepared by God the Father, for the blessed.


Everyone else who doesn't inherit the Kingdom of God, will inherit the same thing as the devil and his angels.

They will hear these words -

“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41


JLB

 

[JLB]

Where does the Bible mention anything about any kind of devilish inheritance?? Not this verse? So where?

I find a lot of assumption found within LOS doctrine. But no clear cut evidence from Scripture.

otoh, Scripture plainly says that eternal life is a gift of God, AND God's gifts are irrevocable, AND there are no verses about eternal life being excluded from the gifts of God that are irrevocable, OR any verses about any of God's gifts being revocable.

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29

No mention of eternal life in Romans 11;29


JLB

 

[JLB]

This doesn't disprove what 1 Cor 3:14 and 15 teaches about reward and loss of reward.

OSAS has taken a part of one scripture, while ignoring the other part, and tried to "splice" it with another scripture that says the gifts and calling are irrevocable.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29


The problem arises when a person examines the scripture Romans 11:29 and discovers that it doesn't say "eternal life is irrevocable".


Then when an honest study of the context is examined, we find that there were indeed some who were broken off, and removed from Covenant Relationship with the Lord, BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF.

20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. Romans 11:20-22

This context applies to the Church, to Christians, to believers in Christ, as the language dictates...

...if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
... Otherwise you also will be cut off.


Here is Romans 6:23 and Romans 11:29, written out and compared together.


For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

The wages of sin is death. This truth must be fully considered when constructing doctrine from the scriptures.

OSAS does not consider this truth from the scriptures, even though it is plainly stated for us here in Romans 6:23

...the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Eternal life is "in" Christ.

Where in these two scriptures does it say, it's impossible for a person to be removed from Christ or disconnected from Christ, once they are "in Christ"?

Jesus Christ Himself plainly explained that we must "remain" in Him.

Those who are in Him, and joined to Him, that is to say "have Him", or are "partakers of Him", indeed have eternal life.

What OSAS refuses to address is that it is indeed possibly to become "disconnected from Him" through unbelief, just exactly likeRomans 11 teaches, and just like John 15:2,6 teaches.

• How can you receive the forgiveness of sins in this life, as we all makes mistakes, and we all are in the process of being transformed, if you no longer believe in Christ, the only one who can forgive your sins?

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

We must continue to remain connected to Him, joined to Him, to have the eternal life that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


JLB

 

[JLB]

The other 2 parallel passages speak of "not inheriting the kingdom" and this one speaks of having "no inheritance IN the kingdom".

Paul plainly warns these Christians in Ephesus with these words ...because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.Therefore do not be partakers with them.

These things: For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater...

Look at what is said in Revelation 21 about these things -

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

Paul warns these Christians not to partake of God's wrath, which we see is the second death. Why would you not want to warn people to turn away from a wicked and unrighteous lifestyle, so as to not partake of God's wrath?


9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21

3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.
Ephesians 5:3-7


Paul goes even further to clarify what that means by saying...

...because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.Therefore do not be partakers with them.



JLB

 

[JLB]

What has been shown did not prove the claim.


Neither is the phrase "loss of salvation" or "loss of eternal life" or "revocation of eternal life" or any other similarly worded phrases to indicate that one who has believed can end up in the lake of fire.


Except there is no comparison made about "any other kingdom".

Where would one think that by not inheriting the kingdom equates to inheriting the devil's kingdom?

In fact, the devil himself will be cast into the lake of fire, and he sure won't be in charge there.

What Kingdom would a person inherit, if they did not inherit the kingdom of God?


The other 2 parallel passages speak of "not inheriting the kingdom" and this one speaks of having "no inheritance IN the kingdom". But all three passages are parallel. The point is that none of the 3 passages (here and 1 Cor 6 and Gal 5) say anything about loss of salvation. That is only assumed from an "interpretation" of what "not inheriting the kingdom" and "have no inheritance IN the kingdom" means.

But since God's gifts are irrevocable, AND eternal life is a gift of God, AND there is NO evidence from Scripture that any of God's gifts are revocable, none of the 3 passages can be teaching that one can lose salvation.

In fact, 1 Cor 3:14 and 15 teach what can be lost, all the while still being saved: rewards.
14 If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Those believers who will "suffer loss" will lose a reward, but "he himself will be saved". I can't imagine how to say it any more clear than how Paul stated it.

How does LOS doctrine explain these 2 verses? What are they teaching?


Exactly!! God's divine discipline or punishment for disobedient children.
Heb 12:6 - because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son NIV


This doesn't disprove what 1 Cor 3:14 and 15 teaches about reward and loss of reward.


Where does the Bible mention anything about any kind of devilish inheritance?? Not this verse? So where?

I find a lot of assumption found within LOS doctrine. But no clear cut evidence from Scripture.

otoh, Scripture plainly says that eternal life is a gift of God, AND God's gifts are irrevocable, AND there are no verses about eternal life being excluded from the gifts of God that are irrevocable, OR any verses about any of God's gifts being revocable.

I guess what you saying is, it's impossible for a Christian to hate and murder?

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


JLB

 

[JLB]

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3

Eternal life is knowing Him.

3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:3-4


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

This is a typical reply from OSAS, in the face of overwhelming irrefutable proof from the word of God, concerning those who choose to live ungodly and wicked lives after they have repented, and confessed Jesus as Lord, and been forgiven their sins.

The overwhelming irrefutable proof from the Word of God for such people is definite discipline and punishment from God, but not loss of salvation.

In fact, the overwhelming irrefutable proof from Scripture is that eternal life is a gift of God, and God's gifts are irrevocable. Therefore, eternal life is irrevocable. If A = B, and B = C, then A = C. Period. Irrefutable logic.

To argue otherwise is illogical. Neither God nor His Word is illogical. He is perfectly logical.

The word rewards is not mentioned, but inheriting the Kingdom of God.

Because A = B and B = C, therefore A = C means that eternal life is irrevocable. So not inheriting the kingdom or not cannot mean loss of salvation.

Inheriting the Kingdom of God, itself, as opposed to inheriting any other kingdom, or anything else.

There is no "as opposed to...".

The devil and his angels who did not inherit the kingdom of God, are sent into the everlasting fire.

This is never described as an inheritance.

What Kingdom would a person inherit, if they did not inherit the kingdom of God?

The ONLY kingdom is God's. Is there any evidence that the devil will rule in the lake of fire? No.

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/1 Cor 6.9-10
This refers to loss of eternal reward. It is an assumption to view loss of inheritance as loss of salvation.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.Galatians 5:19-21

http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Gal 5.19-21
Again, this refers to loss of eternal reward. It is an assumption to view loss of inheritance as loss of salvation.

3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.
Ephesians 5:3-7

http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Eph 5.3-7
Again, this refers to loss of inheritance IN the kingdom of God. Not, as some would try to force it, loss of salvation.

Paul goes even further to clarify what that means by saying...

...because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.Therefore do not be partakers with them.

Kinda like, don't stand near a rebellious believer, or you'll get hit with lightning.