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Bible Study Faith without works

chessman

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I need some rest time after dinner.
Be back later. I'm not moving on to John 6:29 till we get 6:28 straight.

IF you are calvinistic in theology, then just say so and the conversation is over.
If you mention Calvinist again, I’m gonna puke up my dinner.
What possible difference does John Calvin or His Theology make toward a perfectly reasonable discussion about what this Text is saying??? I don’t care what Cavinists have said about John 6:28 or 29 or any other verse (one way or another).

Anyway, the motivation behind their question is contextual, sure (so is the fact that God gave mana as a gift), but it doesn’t change what Jesus said. Your reason for choosing #2 (rejecting #1) to your question about v28 doesn’t really sound right to me.

I mean, think of it...They certainly CANNOT do the same works that God does...so surely the answer must be no. 2.
Lots of people are motivated to gain the ability to do miracles (works of God). Look at Simon’s motivation (money):

Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money, saying, “Give this authority to me as well, so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”
Acts 8:18-19 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Acts 8:18-19&version=NASB

It makes perfect sense that their question was asked out of selfish/worldly motivation.
 

wondering

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#1 Like the Text says, they were there asking this question so that they could fill their bellies with more of this bread (natural, regular ole bread) Jesus miraculously gave them as a sign the day before. This is the same crowd Jesus had just feed with bread the day before. They KNEW He had the ability to work miracles (i.e. “the works of God”). They’d just seen it happen with their own eyes and filled their bellies with this bread and rather selfishly wanted that same ability (Jesus says so, not me).

Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.
John 6:26 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 6:26&version=NASB
So to answer your question as directly as I know how (just like I did (at least twice) to my question by directly saying “#2” to my question yet I have to withstand numerous false accusations that I avoided it) the correct answer is #1. They where asking Him how they could do miracles like He’d done. Which is why John includes not just their question, but a “therefore” conjunction:

So they said to Him, “What may we be doing in order that we may be working the works of God?” Jesus responded and said to them, “This is the work of God: that you be believing in the One Whom that One sent-forth”.
John 6:28-29 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 6:28-29&version=DLNT

Or in the NASB:

Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”
John 6:28 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 6:28&version=NASB

John’s directing his readers to look at what Jesus just said about their motivations for asking this question (not make up their own ideas about why they asked this question).
Very interesting interpretation.

I'll have to look this up in some commentaries.
The only comment I have right now is to see verse 27
(John 6:27) Jesus is telling them that they should work for the food that endures --- the food of eternal life, which is Jesus. It seems to me that they're asking Jesus HOW to work for eternal life.

IOW, you're saying the crowd wanted to know HOW they could also do the miracles of Jesus? (I must say I've never heard it understood this way before now).
 

wondering

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If you mention Calvinist again, I’m gonna puke up my dinner.
What possible difference does John Calvin or His Theology make toward a perfectly reasonable discussion about what this Text is saying??? I don’t care what Cavinists have said about John 6:28 or 29 or any other verse (one way or another).

Anyway, the motivation behind their question is contextual, sure (so is the fact that God gave mana as a gift), but it doesn’t change what Jesus said. Your reason for choosing #2 (rejecting #1) to your question about v28 doesn’t really sound right to me.


Lots of people are motivated to gain the ability to do miracles (works of God). Look at Simon’s motivation (money):

Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money, saying, “Give this authority to me as well, so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”
Acts 8:18-19 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Acts 8:18-19&version=NASB

It makes perfect sense that their question was asked out of selfish/worldly motivation.
I wasn't posting any calvinist thoughts on this.
It's just that they believe God does EVERYTHING and we get to do nothing.

I won't mention it again.
 

JLB

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If you mention Calvinist again, I’m gonna puke up my dinner.
What possible difference does John Calvin or His Theology make toward a perfectly reasonable discussion about what this Text is saying??? I don’t care what Cavinists have said about John 6:28 or 29 or any other verse (one way or another).

Anyway, the motivation behind their question is contextual, sure (so is the fact that God gave mana as a gift), but it doesn’t change what Jesus said. Your reason for choosing #2 (rejecting #1) to your question about v28 doesn’t really sound right to me.


Lots of people are motivated to gain the ability to do miracles (works of God). Look at Simon’s motivation (money):

Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money, saying, “Give this authority to me as well, so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”
Acts 8:18-19 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Acts 8:18-19&version=NASB

It makes perfect sense that their question was asked out of selfish/worldly motivation.

According to Jesus, is believing in Christ a work of:
1. Man
2. God
3. The Devil
4. None of the above
5. 1 and 2



Please answer with one of the listed answers that you came up with.




JLB
 

chessman

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The only comment I have right now is to see verse 27
(John 6:27) Jesus is telling them that they should work for the food that endures ---
Correct. Right after Jesus (not me) says what they were really there for! Food that perishes! Like I said. Regular ole bread. Or more precisely a never ending supply of bread you eat.

27 Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”
John 6:27 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 6:27&version=NASB

It seems to me that they're asking Jesus HOW to work for eternal life.
He was chastising them and explaining that it’s God’s work to give people eternal life. Just like He repeated in v29.

IOW, you're saying the crowd wanted to know HOW they could also do the miracles of Jesus? (I must say I've never heard it understood this way before now).
Correct. How they could do the same miracle (works of God) in making an endless supply of bread for their bellies. It’s obvious. That’s why He brings up mana (also a gift a God’s work).

Well, now you have heard it.
 

JLB

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Very interesting interpretation.

I'll have to look this up in some commentaries.
The only comment I have right now is to see verse 27
(John 6:27) Jesus is telling them that they should work for the food that endures --- the food of eternal life, which is Jesus. It seems to me that they're asking Jesus HOW to work for eternal life.

IOW, you're saying the crowd wanted to know HOW they could also do the miracles of Jesus? (I must say I've never heard it understood this way before now).
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” John 6:29


The work of God (which means work from God; the work God expects us to do) is believe.

This is how Jesus operated.

He did what He saw the Father do.

He said what He heard the Father say.


He therefore got the the divine result of the obedience of faith.


The work that God has for us to do, is believe Him, and therefore obey Him.


This is man’s work.





JLB
 

JLB

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Correct. Right after Jesus (not me) says what they were really there for! Food that perishes! Like I said. Regular ole bread. Or more precisely a never ending supply of bread you eat.

27 Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”
John 6:27 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 6:27&version=NASB


He was chastising them and explaining that it’s God’s work to give people eternal life. Just like He repeated in v29.

Correct. How they could do the same miracle (works of God) in making an endless supply of bread for their bellies. It’s obvious. That’s why He brings up mana (also a gift a God’s work).

Well, now you have heard it.

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” John 6:29




JLB
 

JLB

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Thanks for answering.

Here’s their question -

Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”


Here’s the answer Jesus have them.

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”


  • Its the work that God has for man to do: believe.


God doesn’t do the believing for man.


If He did, then all the world would be saved.





JLB
 

Truthfrees

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Sure. Jesus said the following:

Jesus responded and said to them, “This is the work of God: that you be believing in the One Whom that One sent-forth”.
John 6:29 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 6:29&version=DLNT

When asked; Who’s work is it that I am believing in Christ? I’m gonna answer it’s God’s work every time.
i agree with you - if Jesus says this is the work of God that we believe in Jesus then somehow it is the work of God

Romans 12:3 - God gives to everyone THE measure of faith -

Jesus says in John 6:44 all that the Father draws comes unto Me -

it looks like God does the work and we accept or reject that work - accept or reject Jesus - accept or reject everything Jesus offers us -

many are called but few are chosen - i chose you you did not choose ME -

all of this together seems like God instigates / invites and we respond or not -

if we respond God gets the credit - we can never boast about anything because it really was a work of God that we responded to - Ephesians 2:8-9

if a person rejects God's offer of salvation through Christ that would be very foolish - either a sign that a person loves sin and refuses to come to Christ - John 3:19-20 - or that they don't realize what is being offered to them - 2 Corinthians 4:4
 
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JLB

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all of this together seems like God instigates / invites and we respond or not -

if we respond God gets the credit - we can never boast about anything because it really was a work of God that we responded to - Ephesians 2:8-9

Yes. God speaks to us to do.


Now it’s up to man to believe, and obey.


This is the operation of faith.



No where do we find that God does the believing for man.




JLB
 

Truthfrees

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Thanks for answering.

Here’s their question -

Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

Here’s the answer Jesus have them.

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

  • Its the work that God has for man to do: believe.

God doesn’t do the believing for man.

If He did, then all the world would be saved.

JLB
does it mean that or does it mean that Jesus is telling them to forget about trying to come up with works to be saved because it is a work of God?
 

ezra

 
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why does stuff like this generate so much confusion..works Follows salvation.. we work because were saved and want others to be saved
 

Truthfrees

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Yes. God speaks to us to do.


Now it’s up to man to believe, and obey.


This is the operation of faith.



No where do we find that God does the believing for man.




JLB
true - but that does not give us the right to take credit for anything - especially being saved

the best we could do is thank God for saving us - and giving us the chance to accept His wonderful and gracious unmerited undeserved gift - we shouldn't even remotely take any credit for ourselves

saying i did anything to get saved is wrong imo

saying i ACCEPTED God's gift of salvation by using the faith He gave every man seems more accurate

so God gives to every man the gift of faith - some use it to believe God - some don't
 

JLB

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i would agree with you - if Jesus says this is the work of God that we believe in Jesus then somehow it is the work of God

“Of” God should (contextually) be understood as “from” God.


The work that God has for man to do.


Believe.




JLB
 

Truthfrees

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why does stuff like this generate so much confusion..works Follows salvation.. we work because were saved and want others to be saved
so true - and the works that follow salvation are by the power of God working inside us to help us do what we could not do on our own

a divine collaboration - God gives gifts abilities new heart etc - and we humbly accept all of it and do all things through Christ who lives in us - Philippians 4:13 - Philippians 2:13 - Colossians 1:29
 

JLB

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does it mean that or does it mean that Jesus is telling them to forget about trying to come up with works to be saved because it is a work of God?

No one is saved by doing enough works.


On the other hand, the way we are saved is by obeying the Gospel.



JLB
 

Truthfrees

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“Of” God should (contextually) be understood as “from” God.

The work that God has for man to do.

Believe.

JLB
we can do nothing apart from Christ so any work that we SEEM to do would have to be with God - not apart from God - John 15:5

a divine collaboration - not by might nor by power but by God's Spirit - Zechariah 4:6
 

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