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Bible Study Faith without works

wondering said:
I need some rest time after dinner.
Be back later. I'm not moving on to John 6:29 till we get 6:28 straight.

IF you are calvinistic in theology, then just say so and the conversation is over.
Click to expand...

If you mention Calvinist again, I’m gonna puke up my dinner.
What possible difference does John Calvin or His Theology make toward a perfectly reasonable discussion about what this Text is saying??? I don’t care what Cavinists have said about John 6:28 or 29 or any other verse (one way or another).

Anyway, the motivation behind their question is contextual, sure (so is the fact that God gave mana as a gift), but it doesn’t change what Jesus said. Your reason for choosing #2 (rejecting #1) to your question about v28 doesn’t really sound right to me.

wondering said:
I mean, think of it...They certainly CANNOT do the same works that God does...so surely the answer must be no. 2.
Click to expand...
Lots of people are motivated to gain the ability to do miracles (works of God). Look at Simon’s motivation (money):

Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money, saying, “Give this authority to me as well, so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”​
Acts 8:18-19 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Acts 8:18-19&version=NASB

It makes perfect sense that their question was asked out of selfish/worldly motivation.
 
chessman said:
#1 Like the Text says, they were there asking this question so that they could fill their bellies with more of this bread (natural, regular ole bread) Jesus miraculously gave them as a sign the day before. This is the same crowd Jesus had just feed with bread the day before. They KNEW He had the ability to work miracles (i.e. “the works of God”). They’d just seen it happen with their own eyes and filled their bellies with this bread and rather selfishly wanted that same ability (Jesus says so, not me).

Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.​
John 6:26 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 6:26&version=NASB
So to answer your question as directly as I know how (just like I did (at least twice) to my question by directly saying “#2” to my question yet I have to withstand numerous false accusations that I avoided it) the correct answer is #1. They where asking Him how they could do miracles like He’d done. Which is why John includes not just their question, but a “therefore” conjunction:

So they said to Him, “What may we be doing in order that we may be working the works of God?” Jesus responded and said to them, “This is the work of God: that you be believing in the One Whom that One sent-forth”.​
John 6:28-29 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 6:28-29&version=DLNT

Or in the NASB:

Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”​
John 6:28 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 6:28&version=NASB

John’s directing his readers to look at what Jesus just said about their motivations for asking this question (not make up their own ideas about why they asked this question).
Click to expand...
Very interesting interpretation.

I'll have to look this up in some commentaries.
The only comment I have right now is to see verse 27
(John 6:27) Jesus is telling them that they should work for the food that endures --- the food of eternal life, which is Jesus. It seems to me that they're asking Jesus HOW to work for eternal life.

IOW, you're saying the crowd wanted to know HOW they could also do the miracles of Jesus? (I must say I've never heard it understood this way before now).
 
chessman said:
If you mention Calvinist again, I’m gonna puke up my dinner.
What possible difference does John Calvin or His Theology make toward a perfectly reasonable discussion about what this Text is saying??? I don’t care what Cavinists have said about John 6:28 or 29 or any other verse (one way or another).

Anyway, the motivation behind their question is contextual, sure (so is the fact that God gave mana as a gift), but it doesn’t change what Jesus said. Your reason for choosing #2 (rejecting #1) to your question about v28 doesn’t really sound right to me.


Lots of people are motivated to gain the ability to do miracles (works of God). Look at Simon’s motivation (money):

Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money, saying, “Give this authority to me as well, so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”​
Acts 8:18-19 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Acts 8:18-19&version=NASB

It makes perfect sense that their question was asked out of selfish/worldly motivation.
Click to expand...
I wasn't posting any calvinist thoughts on this.
It's just that they believe God does EVERYTHING and we get to do nothing.

I won't mention it again.
 
chessman said:
If you mention Calvinist again, I’m gonna puke up my dinner.
What possible difference does John Calvin or His Theology make toward a perfectly reasonable discussion about what this Text is saying??? I don’t care what Cavinists have said about John 6:28 or 29 or any other verse (one way or another).

Anyway, the motivation behind their question is contextual, sure (so is the fact that God gave mana as a gift), but it doesn’t change what Jesus said. Your reason for choosing #2 (rejecting #1) to your question about v28 doesn’t really sound right to me.


Lots of people are motivated to gain the ability to do miracles (works of God). Look at Simon’s motivation (money):

Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money, saying, “Give this authority to me as well, so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”​
Acts 8:18-19 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Acts 8:18-19&version=NASB

It makes perfect sense that their question was asked out of selfish/worldly motivation.
Click to expand...


According to Jesus, is believing in Christ a work of:
1. Man
2. God
3. The Devil
4. None of the above
5. 1 and 2



Please answer with one of the listed answers that you came up with.




JLB
 
wondering said:
The only comment I have right now is to see verse 27
(John 6:27) Jesus is telling them that they should work for the food that endures ---
Click to expand...
Correct. Right after Jesus (not me) says what they were really there for! Food that perishes! Like I said. Regular ole bread. Or more precisely a never ending supply of bread you eat.

27 Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”​
John 6:27 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 6:27&version=NASB

wondering said:
It seems to me that they're asking Jesus HOW to work for eternal life.
Click to expand...
He was chastising them and explaining that it’s God’s work to give people eternal life. Just like He repeated in v29.

wondering said:
IOW, you're saying the crowd wanted to know HOW they could also do the miracles of Jesus? (I must say I've never heard it understood this way before now).
Click to expand...
Correct. How they could do the same miracle (works of God) in making an endless supply of bread for their bellies. It’s obvious. That’s why He brings up mana (also a gift a God’s work).

Well, now you have heard it.
 
wondering said:
Very interesting interpretation.

I'll have to look this up in some commentaries.
The only comment I have right now is to see verse 27
(John 6:27) Jesus is telling them that they should work for the food that endures --- the food of eternal life, which is Jesus. It seems to me that they're asking Jesus HOW to work for eternal life.

IOW, you're saying the crowd wanted to know HOW they could also do the miracles of Jesus? (I must say I've never heard it understood this way before now).
Click to expand...

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” John 6:29


The work of God (which means work from God; the work God expects us to do) is believe.

This is how Jesus operated.

He did what He saw the Father do.

He said what He heard the Father say.


He therefore got the the divine result of the obedience of faith.


The work that God has for us to do, is believe Him, and therefore obey Him.


This is man’s work.





JLB
 
chessman said:
Correct. Right after Jesus (not me) says what they were really there for! Food that perishes! Like I said. Regular ole bread. Or more precisely a never ending supply of bread you eat.

27 Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”​
John 6:27 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 6:27&version=NASB


He was chastising them and explaining that it’s God’s work to give people eternal life. Just like He repeated in v29.

Correct. How they could do the same miracle (works of God) in making an endless supply of bread for their bellies. It’s obvious. That’s why He brings up mana (also a gift a God’s work).

Well, now you have heard it.
Click to expand...


Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” John 6:29




JLB
 

Thanks for answering.

Here’s their question -

Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”


Here’s the answer Jesus have them.

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”


  • Its the work that God has for man to do: believe.


God doesn’t do the believing for man.


If He did, then all the world would be saved.





JLB
 
Truthfrees said:
all of this together seems like God instigates / invites and we respond or not -

if we respond God gets the credit - we can never boast about anything because it really was a work of God that we responded to - Ephesians 2:8-9
Click to expand...


Yes. God speaks to us to do.


Now it’s up to man to believe, and obey.


This is the operation of faith.



No where do we find that God does the believing for man.




JLB
 
JLB said:
Thanks for answering.

Here’s their question -

Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

Here’s the answer Jesus have them.

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

  • Its the work that God has for man to do: believe.

God doesn’t do the believing for man.

If He did, then all the world would be saved.

JLB
Click to expand...
does it mean that ?
 
why does stuff like this generate so much confusion..works Follows salvation.. we work because were saved and want others to be saved
 
JLB said:
Yes. God speaks to us to do.


Now it’s up to man to believe, and obey.


This is the operation of faith.



No where do we find that God does the believing for man.




JLB
Click to expand...
true - but that does not give us the right to take credit for anything
 
Truthfrees said:
i would agree with you - if Jesus says this is the work of God that we believe in Jesus then somehow it is the work of God
Click to expand...


“Of” God should (contextually) be understood as “from” God.


The work that God has for man to do.


Believe.




JLB
 
Truthfrees said:
does it mean that or does it mean that Jesus is telling them to forget about trying to come up with works to be saved because it is a work of God?
Click to expand...


No one is saved by doing enough works.


On the other hand, the way we are saved is by obeying the Gospel.



JLB
 
JLB said:
“Of” God should (contextually) be understood as “from” God.

The work that God has for man to do.

Believe.

JLB
Click to expand...
a divine collaboration - not by might nor by power but by God's Spirit - Zechariah 4:6
 
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