What's new
  • Do not use Chrome Incognito when registering as it freezes the registration page.
  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • No longer will OSAS vx OSNAS be allowed to be debated, argued, or discussed in theology forum. Too much time is required to monitor and rescources used to debate this subject which hasn't been definitively decided in 3,000 years.

If I ask someone for a gift, did I earn it, or work for it when I got it handed to me?

Who thinks asking for a gift, when is received worked for it, and earned it?

  • Worked for it, and earned it!

    Votes: 1 8.3%
  • Didn't work for it, and didn't earn it!

    Votes: 11 91.7%

  • Total voters
    12

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Supporter
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
Messages
21,721
Gender
Male
The Bible teaches eternal security in many places, and you've rejected every one of them.

Please give the scriptures where the bible teaches eternal security.


JLB
 

WIP

Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Dec 11, 2010
Messages
10,276
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
I don't consider "falling away" to refer to loss of salvation. Scholars say that the author was addressing Jewish believers who had turned back to the Mosaic Law and animal sacrifice in order to avoid persecution.

The author's point was that Jesus was the ultimate "once for all" Sacrifice, and that the animal sacrifices done year after year don't actually cleanse anyone (Heb 10:1).

When a believer turns away from God's commands, they lose out on His blessings, which He promises for those who are obedient and faithful. This is what they fall away from; His blessings.
So if I'm understanding you correctly once one is saved he/she could spit in the face of God, curse God to His face, even worship Satan and would not lose salvation?

Just trying to fully understand your point of view.
 

FreeGrace

 
Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2014
Messages
7,816
Christian
Yes
I've shown many, you just keep you eyes shut to them.
You know in your heart that's just not true. In fact, the opposite is true.

God holds His children in His hand and no one (even His own children) is unable to remove them from it.
Those who have believed are sealed with the Holy Spirit, a promise AND guarantee for the day of redemption.
And, Paul defined eternal life as a gift of God before he wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable.

You've not refuted any of this. Just disagreed.

None of the verses you've provided can possible mean loss of salvation, given these proven teachings from Scripture.
 

FreeGrace

 
Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2014
Messages
7,816
Christian
Yes
It's not turning away from His commands... It's turning away or departing from God Himself
No one has that ability or power to separate themself from God. Jesus made that clear in John 10:28,29. The words "no one" means "no person". So that includes even the one who is IN His hand.

Why do you think any believer has the power or ability to separate themself from God's hand?? Esp since what Jesus said.
 

FreeGrace

 
Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2014
Messages
7,816
Christian
Yes
Please give the scriptures where the bible teaches eternal security.
JLB
In post #677 I did, and you've ignored.

So, here are the verses again:

In spite of clear verses about being held by the Father's hand (Jn 10:28,29), being sealed with the Holy Spirit as a GUARANTEE for the day of redemption (Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22, 5:5) (how is that not crystal clear?). And don't forget that eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23) and God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

These verses are clear. Eternal security is taught in Scripture.

No one from your view has exegetically refuted any of these verses to show that they DON'T teach eternal security.

I don't have to prove they teach eternal security because the words clearly mean that to me. So if I'm wrong, the onus is on you to prove me wrong.
 

FreeGrace

 
Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2014
Messages
7,816
Christian
Yes
Yes, eternal life is a gift of God, which is defined by the Lord Himself as relationship with God and Jesus Christ whom He sent.
And that relationship is described in the SAME TERMS as one's physical relationship with their human parents. Which CANNOT be severed. iow, your birth parents are ALWAYS your birth parents. That cannot be changed or revoked.

God is the Father, we are His children. That relationship CANNOT be broken.

However, fellowship most certainly can be broken. But that does NOT result in loss of salvation, because of all the verses I've provided which prove it.

Here's some verses that speak directly to "fellowship", which is NOT relationship.

NASB:
1 Cor 1:9 - God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
2 Cor 13:14 - The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.
Phil 2:1 - Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion,
Philemon 6 - and I pray that the fellowship of your faith may become effective through theknowledge of every good thing which is in you for Christ’s sake.
1 Jn 1:3, 6, 7
3 what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;
7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

NIV:
Phil 3:10 - I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,

Those who can discern between "relationship" and "fellowship" will have no problem understanding these verses.

Just as a human parent and child's relationship cannot be broken, their fellowship certainly can be. The same is true for our spiritual relationship with God. It cannot be broken, but fellowship with Him certainly can be. Through sin, and faithlessness.
 

FreeGrace

 
Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2014
Messages
7,816
Christian
Yes
So if I'm understanding you correctly once one is saved he/she could spit in the face of God, curse God to His face, even worship Satan and would not lose salvation?

Just trying to fully understand your point of view.
This is correct. But why should the above be an issue? Didn't Christ die for all sin? We didn't earn or deserve salvation, so how can "disearn" it?

Haven't the verses I've provided been clear about eternal security?

If they don't teach eternal security, I sure wish someone could show me how they don't.
 

WIP

Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Dec 11, 2010
Messages
10,276
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
This is correct. But why should the above be an issue? Didn't Christ die for all sin? We didn't earn or deserve salvation, so how can "disearn" it?

Haven't the verses I've provided been clear about eternal security?

If they don't teach eternal security, I sure wish someone could show me how they don't.
I think a big part of the discussion has not been just about questioning eternal security. It's also about reconciling eternal security with other scripture such as Hebrews 6 and 2 Peter 2 among others that seem to contradict eternal security.

Throughout this discussion thread, as I have been watching, you have more than once boldly claimed to have refuted the opposition but the truth is if you really did, the opposition argument would be eliminated. The fact still remains that the opposition is still presenting Scriptural evidence to the contrary so it does not appear that you have sufficiently proved your point yet. You haven't convinced me and I'm on the fence nor have you convinced your opposition.
 

FreeGrace

 
Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2014
Messages
7,816
Christian
Yes
I think a big part of the discussion has not been just about questioning eternal security. It's also about reconciling eternal security with other scripture such as Hebrews 6 and 2 Peter 2 among others that seem to contradict eternal security.
But we know (or should know) that the Bible is not internally contradicted. So any "apparent" contradiction is simply a misunderstanding of one or both verses that seem to contradict each other.

And the verses I've provided are so clear, and the verses used by the conditional security folk are not so clear.

Throughout this discussion thread, as I have been watching, you have more than once boldly claimed to have refuted the opposition but the truth is if you really did, the opposition argument would be eliminated.
Not really. People are free to deny truth. The Pharisees did that repeatedly. Even after seeing miracles. I'm not calling anyone who disagrees with me a Pharisee, but just pointing out that believers are capable of accepting false doctrines.

] The fact still remains that the opposition is still presenting Scriptural evidence to the contrary so it does not appear that you have sufficiently proved your point yet.
Well, either Scripture is internally contradicted, or one of the sides is wrong.

You haven't convinced me and I'm on the fence nor have you convinced your opposition.
I don't ever expect to convince the opposition. They are entrenched in their views. It's those "on the fence" as you say, that should be able to weigh the verses and arguments of both sides and come to the truth.

I've given an explanation of the verses from the opposition that are reasonable and show that the verses aren't about eternal security, or lack of it.

Has the opposition done that with any of my verses? I'd really love to see someone address the verses on the sealing with the Holy Spirit to show how those verses don't teach eternal security. But none have even tried to do that.

I would suggest that is a clue. If the opposition has the truth, they should be able to show how all of my verses don't teach eternal security.

If you don't believe the Bible is internally contradicted, then you know that both sides cannot be correct. One has to be false. With the guidance of the Holy Spirit, those who seek truth will surely find it. It is God's will that we know the truth. And 1 Jn 5:14,15 promises that if we pray according to God's will, He hears us.

Is there any specific item that keeps you "on the fence" in this debate.rather than siding with either side?
 

WIP

Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Dec 11, 2010
Messages
10,276
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
I thought I made my intentions clear. I am only trying to understand what I've been reading. Not debate the topic.
But we know (or should know) that the Bible is not internally contradicted. I agree, which is why I wrote "other Scriptures that seem to contradict." So any "apparent" contradiction is simply a misunderstanding of one or both verses that seem to contradict each other. Again I agree. The challenge is in determining the truth.

And the verses I've provided are so clear, and the verses used by the conditional security folk are not so clear. In your opinion. If it truly was as clear as you claim, you and I and everyone else would not be having this discussion.


Not really. People are free to deny truth. The Pharisees did that repeatedly. Even after seeing miracles. I'm not calling anyone who disagrees with me a Pharisee, but just pointing out that believers are capable of accepting false doctrines. I agree and would point out that it works both ways.


Well, either Scripture is internally contradicted, or one of the sides is wrong. Again, no disagreement from me. The question is which?


I don't ever expect to convince the opposition. They are entrenched in their views. It's those "on the fence" as you say, that should be able to weigh the verses and arguments of both sides and come to the truth. Like I already pointed out, you have failed to do that with me.

I've given an explanation of the verses from the opposition that are reasonable and show that the verses aren't about eternal security, or lack of it.

Has the opposition done that with any of my verses? I'd really love to see someone address the verses on the sealing with the Holy Spirit to show how those verses don't teach eternal security. But none have even tried to do that. Actually, I've been thinking that maybe they have but you might be denying their effort.

I would suggest that is a clue. If the opposition has the truth, they should be able to show how all of my verses don't teach eternal security.

If you don't believe the Bible is internally contradicted, then you know that both sides cannot be correct. One has to be false. With the guidance of the Holy Spirit, those who seek truth will surely find it. It is God's will that we know the truth. And 1 Jn 5:14,15 promises that if we pray according to God's will, He hears us. Absolutely agree again.

Is there any specific item that keeps you "on the fence" in this debate.rather than siding with either side?
See my responses in red above.

The evidence has not been presented compelling enough to convict me one way or the other. Both sides have failed so far. I have not yet been able to reconcile the seeming contradictions. More prayer and meditation will be needed.
 

FreeGrace

 
Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2014
Messages
7,816
Christian
Yes
I thought I made my intentions clear. I am only trying to understand what I've been reading. Not debate the topic.

See my responses in red above.

The evidence has not been presented compelling enough to convict me one way or the other. Both sides have failed so far. I have not yet been able to reconcile the seeming contradictions. More prayer and meditation will be needed.
OK.

There is just one more question that is relevant to the issue.

Given that salvation is given on the basis of "by grace through faith", meaning we don't deserve it, nor can we earn it, how does the concept of losing one's salvation fit into God's plan of grace?
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Supporter
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
Messages
21,721
Gender
Male
No one has that ability or power to separate them self from God. Jesus made that clear in John 10:28,29. The words "no one" means "no person". So that includes even the one who is IN His hand.

Why do you think any believer has the power or ability to separate them self from God's hand?? Esp since what Jesus said.
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.” John 10:27-30

Again, Jesus grants to those who hear His Voice and follow Him, eternal life, which is relationship with Him.

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
John 17:3

As long as we continue to remain connected in this relationship, we will continue to have eternal life.

We do not have eternal life, apart from this relationship to God, through Jesus Christ.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Strongs G3306 -
Abide means to continue; to remain in position continually.

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 2:7

The way we are, reconciled to God, which is being "connected" to the Vine is by faith.

The way we remain connected to the vine, is by continuing in the faith.

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, Colossians 1:21-23


JLB
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Supporter
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
Messages
21,721
Gender
Male
OK.

There is just one more question that is relevant to the issue.

Given that salvation is given on the basis of "by grace through faith", meaning we don't deserve it, nor can we earn it, how does the concept of losing one's salvation fit into God's plan of grace?
It is by faith we are reconciled to God, it is by faith we will continue to be reconciled to Him.

If we depart from Him through unbelief, then we no longer believe, but have unbelief.

Unbelievers are not promised eternal life. Believers are promised eternal life.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called“Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14



JLB

 

WIP

Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Dec 11, 2010
Messages
10,276
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
OK.

There is just one more question that is relevant to the issue.

Given that salvation is given on the basis of "by grace through faith", meaning we don't deserve it, nor can we earn it, how does the concept of losing one's salvation fit into God's plan of grace?
I really don't want to get into debate. I was just looking for some clarification of your position/theology and I do appreciate your replies. You have given me good food for thought. Thank you.
 

FreeGrace

 
Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2014
Messages
7,816
Christian
Yes
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.” John 10:27-30

Again, Jesus grants to those who hear His Voice and follow Him, eternal life, which is relationship with Him.
And we know that eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23) which is irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

As long as we continue to remain connected in this relationship, we will continue to have eternal life.
What verse actually says this?????

We do not have eternal life, apart from this relationship to God, through Jesus Christ.
I've addressed this repeatedly. All who have believed have been sealed with the Holy Spirit, which is a promised guarantee for the day of redemption. And you've not shown from exegesis that the verses don't teach eternal security.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6
Oh, now you've changed the goalposts to the issue of fellowship, not relationship.

Strongs G3306 -
Abide means to continue; to remain in position continually.
What is the point of abiding in John 15? To produce fruit, not go gain or retain salvation.

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 2:7
This has been explained. You've not refuted it exegetically. No one gets eternal life by doing good. Rom 3:20 says so.

The way we are, reconciled to God, which is being "connected" to the Vine is by faith.
But the Bible says very clearly that God was reconciling the world to Himself through Christ in 2 Cor 5:19.

The way we remain connected to the vine, is by continuing in the faith.
This is true and has nothing to do with either getting or retaining salvation.
 

FreeGrace

 
Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2014
Messages
7,816
Christian
Yes
It is by faith we are reconciled to God, it is by faith we will continue to be reconciled to Him.

If we depart from Him through unbelief, then we no longer believe, but have unbelief.
Even believers have unbelief. Moses is just one glaring example. Do you believe he is in hell today?

Unbelievers are not promised eternal life. Believers are promised eternal life.
Again, you fail to accept the fact that when one believes in Christ, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit, a guaranteed promise for the day of redemption.

Unless someone provides exegetical proof that the sealing verses don't teach eternal life, there is no reason to accept such a view.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called“Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14JLB
Even Moses didn't enter the land because of unbelief (Heb 3:19).

So why would Jesus make so many references to him if he lost his salvation and ended up in hell?
 

FreeGrace

 
Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2014
Messages
7,816
Christian
Yes
I really don't want to get into debate. I was just looking for some clarification of your position/theology and I do appreciate your replies. You have given me good food for thought. Thank you.
My question wasn't for debate. Just to clarify issues based on God's plan of grace. More "food for thought". :)

I know that those who reject eternal security cannot answer my question.
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Supporter
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
Messages
21,721
Gender
Male
Even believers have unbelief. Moses is just one glaring example. Do you believe he is in hell today?


Again, you fail to accept the fact that when one believes in Christ, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit, a guaranteed promise for the day of redemption.

Unless someone provides exegetical proof that the sealing verses don't teach eternal life, there is no reason to accept such a view.


Even Moses didn't enter the land because of unbelief (Heb 3:19).

So why would Jesus make so many references to him if he lost his salvation and ended up in hell?

Did Moses depart from the living God is unbelief ?



they are sealed with the Holy Spirit,
Define what sealed means in this verse.


JLB
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Supporter
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
Messages
21,721
Gender
Male
My question wasn't for debate. Just to clarify issues based on God's plan of grace. More "food for thought". :)

I know that those who reject eternal security cannot answer my question.

Please show us where the phrase "eternal security" is found in the bible.


JLB
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Supporter
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
Messages
21,721
Gender
Male
And we know that eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23) which is irrevocable (Rom 11:29).
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Romans 11:29

Eternal life is not mentioned in Romans 11:29

Eternal life is mentioned, before Romans 11, and is Found in Romans 2.

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:7-8


Eternal Life is also mentioned in Romans 6, as well as the result of those who practice sin, and receive the wages of such practice.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

Just as Romans 2 states the result of unrighteous disobedience which is sin, so does Romans 6.

...but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath.

Please show us how it you decided to ignore what Romans 2 and Romans 6 say, only to try and use Romans 11:29, that does not even contain the phrase eternal life, to somehow "overrule" what Paul has clearly and plainly said previously in Romans 2 and Romans 6 that actually contain the phrase eternal life and plainly teach us who it is who will be given eternal life and those who will not.

This is not rightly dividing the word of truth, but rather your method of interpretation is to ignore what the bible says altogether.


JLB
 

2020 Hosting Fee

Total amount
$0.00
Goal
$667.40
Top