If I ask someone for a gift, did I earn it, or work for it when I got it handed to me?

[FreeGrace]

My post doesn't involve Hebrews.

Because you have ignored it. I brought up Heb 10:14, which needs to be explained by your side. Will you?

By one sacrifice
has made perfect
forever
those who are being made holy

Please explain what each phrase/word means.

Since I don't expect that you will, I'll tell you what it all means.

"by one sacrifice" refers to Christ's sacrifice on the cross for everyone

"has made perfect" refers to those who have believed on Him. The word for 'perfect' means to complete, be mature.

"forever" is self explanatory. Lasts for all time. Beyond time even.

"those who are being made holy" refers to those who have believed in Christ and progressive sanctification.

What does the verse teach? That those who have believed in Christ "have been made perfect FOREVER" while they are being progressively sanctified.

 

[JLB]

Because you have ignored it. I brought up Heb 10:14, which needs to be explained by your side. Will you?

By one sacrifice
has made perfect
forever
those who are being made holy

Please explain what each phrase/word means.

Since I don't expect that you will, I'll tell you what it all means.

"by one sacrifice" refers to Christ's sacrifice on the cross for everyone

"has made perfect" refers to those who have believed on Him. The word for 'perfect' means to complete, be mature.

"forever" is self explanatory. Lasts for all time. Beyond time even.

"those who are being made holy" refers to those who have believed in Christ and progressive sanctification.

What does the verse teach? That those who have believed in Christ "have been made perfect FOREVER" while they are being progressively sanctified.

It teaches there is only one sacrifice for sin, whether initial salvation, or those who sin after they are born again, and therefore want to be cleansed of their sin by confessing their sin to God.

Confessing our sin to God, and being cleansed of sin, is the work of being made holy.

Of course this applies to those who believe... not to those who believe for a while, then return to the unbelieving lifestyle they once had, before Christ.


Now, please answer this simple question.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, andthey are burned. John 15:6

This teaches us:
People [anyone] who believe the Gospel and are "in Christ", then later these same people who were in Christ, are severed and removed from Christ, then these people are thrown into the fire and burned.

Anyone, he, them, they are all references to people. People who were in Christ.


Were these people in this teaching, that were thrown into the fire and burned, "in Him" ?


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

It teaches there is only one sacrifice for sin, whether initial salvation, or those who sin after they are born again, and therefore want to be cleansed of their sin by confessing their sin to God.

Confessing our sin to God, and being cleansed of sin, is the work of being made holy.

Of course this applies to those who believe... not to those who believe for a while, then return to the unbelieving lifestyle they once had, before Christ.


Now, please answer this simple question.

Before your simple question, why did you ignore the word "forever" in Heb 10:14? What does it mean, and what is forever?

 

[OzSpen]

Please read post #718 and explain Heb 10:14 - because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Correct! And we see very clear wording that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all called "God", which proves that God is Three in One. My point is that there is no clear teaching on loss of salvation in the Bible. It's all just assumption of verses that are not specifically clear about it. And there are clear verses on eternal security.

In fact, the verses on eternal security are as clear as the verses on unlimited atonement.

But there is a very logical and reasonable explanation for this passage that doesn't involve loss of salvation.

How does "restored to repentance" even relate to the status of loss of salvation. Repentance isn't a one time thing. We need to turn from sin every time we do sin. This isn't the basis of maintaining our salvation.​

Yes, apostasy is very serious, but does not lead to loss of salvation, no matter how much it may offend and disgust people.

Is God a God of grace or not? He is, and Christ died for all sins. So no matter the sin, Christ already paid for it. Because of grace.

We are saved by grace, and kept by that very same grace.

We didn't earn or deserve our salvation, and therefore we can't earn or deserve loss of salvation. Grace goes both ways.


I fully agree with what apostasy means. However, 1 Thess 5:4-10
"4 But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.
5 You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness.
6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and self controlled.
7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night.
8 But since we belong to the day, let us be self controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet.
9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him."

This passage contrasts 2 lifestyles; sons of light and day vs belonging to the night or darkness. v.4,5
Or being asleep vs being alert and self controlled. v.6
Paul admonishes in v.6 that believers are not to be like unbelievers.
v.7 is a statement about lifestyle of unbelievers as well as believers. From the phrase "let us NOT BE LIKE those…"
v.8 is an admonishment on how to live, since we belong to the day (light).
v.9 is a reminder of WHY we have believed: to avoid wrath and to receive salvation.
v.10 is the KEY: "whether we are awake (alert) or asleep (lifestyle of the unbeliever), we may live together with Him".

iow, despite lifestyle, we will live with Him. That is the message.


There is nothing here to suggest loss of salvation. It also speaks of apostasy.


Even Jesus noted those who "believe for a while, and in time of testing/temptation fall away". Yet, there is no mention of loss of salvation in that parable. Only loss of fruit production.

Paul described 3 things as 'gifts of God' in Romans:
1:11 spiritual gifts
3:24 and 5:15,16,17 justification
6:23 eternal life

Then, he wrote 11:29 - the gifts of God are irrevocable.

That's very clear to me.

Also, consider Heb 10:14 - because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

How would you explain what 'has made perfect FOREVER' means? It is clear that "those who are being made holy" refers to those who have believed. And note the tense of "has made perfect".

Do you understand what you have done here? You have not refuted the Greek exegesis I provided. You have given your pro-eternal security position. You gave me your advertising for the topic, backed by cherry picked verses.

You say: 'Yes, apostasy is very serious, but does not lead to loss of salvation, no matter how much it may offend and disgust people'. That is an audacious statement as it contradicts both the Greek and English definitions of 'apostasy' I provided.

Oz

 

[JLB]

Before your simple question, why did you ignore the word "forever" in Heb 10:14? What does it mean, and what is forever?

Forever blessed applies to believers.

So that we are clear, I will post a scripture that covers every verse and every promise of God you can dig up.

20 For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us.
2 Corinthians 1:20

The key phrase "IN HIM".

As long as you abide "IN HIM", God will continue His work of sanctification, in you.

Forever perfected or completed, which is to say mature, as in the full stature of Christ mature, is promised to those "IN HIM".

Which brings us to my point.

Now, please answer this simple question.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, andthey are burned. John 15:6

This teaches us:
People [anyone] who believe the Gospel and are "in Christ", then later these same people who were in Christ, are severed and removed from Christ, then these people are thrown into the fire and burned.

Anyone, he, them, they are all references to people. People who were in Christ.


Were these people in this teaching, that were thrown into the fire and burned, "in Him" ?


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Do you understand what you have done here? You have not refuted the Greek exegesis I provided.

Your response appeared to be an opinion. The definition of apostasy is to "no longer believe what was once believed". But where does the Bible say or indicate that loss of faith means loss of salvation?

It is an assumption only.

You have given your pro-eternal security position. You gave me your advertising for the topic, backed by cherry picked verses.

My position is based on what the Bible says clearly. And the verses I provided are clear about eternal security. You may call them cherry picked if you want to. But neither you nor anyone else has exegeted them to show that they don't show eternal security.

You say: 'Yes, apostasy is very serious, but does not lead to loss of salvation, no matter how much it may offend and disgust people'. That is an audacious statement as it contradicts both the Greek and English definitions of 'apostasy' I provided.

There is nothing in the word for "apostasy" that means loss of salvation.

Here is the word for "fall away" in Heb 6:6 -

parapiptō
1) to fall beside a person or thing
2) to slip aside
2a) to deviate from the right path, turn aside, wander
2b) to error
2c) to fall away (from the true faith): from worship ofJehovah

Nothing here about loss of salvation.

Further, Paul described God's gifts as justification (Rom 3:24 and 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) and then wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29). That should end all debate on eternal life.

These gifts of God are "unrepented of" or irrevocable.

Further, when one believes they are sealed with the Holy Spirit, a promise and guarantee FOR the day of redemption.
Eph 1;13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22, 5:5.

Heb 10:14 - because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Those "who are being made holy" is a reference to believers, and God "has made (them) perfect FOREVER".

Having been made perfect forever precludes the loss of salvation.

These are not "cherry-picked" verses, but verses that clearly speak of eternal security.

 

[FreeGrace]

Forever blessed applies to believers.

The verse isn't about being "blessed". It's about 'having been MADE perfect FOREVER'. Even while they are "being made holy". This is about those who have believed.

So that we are clear, I will post a scripture that covers every verse and every promise of God you can dig up.

Ha! Paul described both justification and eternal life as gifts of God, and then wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable. You've failed to refute these verses from Scripture.

As long as you abide "IN HIM", God will continue His work of sanctification, in you.

Fellowship here, NOT relationship. Discernment understands the difference.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, andthey are burned. John 15:6

This teaches us:
People [anyone] who believe the Gospel and are "in Christ", then later these same people who were in Christ, are severed and removed from Christ, then these people are thrown into the fire and burned.
Anyone, he, them, they are all references to people. People who were in Christ.
Were these people in this teaching, that were thrown into the fire and burned, "in Him" ?JLB

Yes, they were IN HIM. But they were not "abiding in Him".

But until one understands the difference between fellowship and relationship, one cannot "rightly divide the Word of Truth".

 

[OzSpen]

Your response appeared to be an opinion. The definition of apostasy is to "no longer believe what was once believed".

From where did you obtain that definition of apostasy? I do wish you would document your sources. Nothing was documented in your post #726. If you are going to continue to do this, we have no grounds for a reasonable discussion.

I did obtain your information about the meaning of parapiptw at: http://www.laparola.net/greco/parola.php?p=παραπίπτω. Here it stated that Thayer's Greek lexicon gave the meaning of this word for 'fall away/apostasy' as:

Thayer
1) to fall beside a person or thing
2) to slip aside
2a) to deviate from the right path, turn aside, wander
2b) to error
2c) to fall away (from the true faith): from worship of Jehovah
Part of Speech: verb
Citing in TDNT: 6:170, 846​

I have Thayer's lexicon in hard copy. What this abbreviated version failed to state was that 1), 2), 2a) where 'to deviate from the right path, turn aside, wander' related to the meaning of 2) 'to slip aside'.2b) should be the infinitive 'to err'. All of these meanings are from classical Greek authors Polybius and Xenophon and were NOT from the Bible. They are the meanings in these ancient Classical Greek authors.

What your abbreviated edition failed to mention was that 2c) was the only meaning that was from the Bible and it means 'to fall away (from the true faith); from the worship of Jehovah' (Ezek 14:13; 15:8) and 'from Christianity' (Heb 6:6) (Thayer 1885/1962:485). This is the meaning of apostasy as Arndt & Gingrich's lexicon confirms (as I've already provided above).

I know that this kind of definition is outside of your theological philosophy, but I want to be honest with the Greek exegesis of the text. It is possible to commit apostasy (fall away from the faith) in such a bad way that 'it is impossible' to restore their faith again. The language of Heb 6:6 (ESV) is accurate that it is impossible 'to restore them again to repentance', i.e. the apostasy has caused them to reach a stage where repentance to obtain true faith is needed, but it is impossible for that to happen.

That's what Heb 6:6 (ESV) states. It's a challenging thing before God to want to minimise this serious situation. I was in Bible College with two students and then ministers who have now committed apostasy. They have repudiated Christ and their Christian faith. They are now secular pagans in their thinking and actions.

See Carl Wieland’s, ‘Death of an apostate’ (i.e. Charles Templeton). Templeton in the 1940s was a colleague of Billy Graham in Youth for Christ.

(Courtesy Worldcat)​

Michael Patton has written this sad but challenging article, ‘Billy Graham and Charles Templeton: A Sad Tale of Two Evangelists’.

Oz

​

 

[JLB]

Fellowship here, NOT relationship. Discernment understands the difference.

It's not hard to understand what gathered up and thrown into the fire and burned means.

They were in Christ, then they were removed from Him, and thrown into the fire and burned.

You can play silly games, with God's word here on earth, but the Day will certainly come when you will give an account for all the people that you persuaded, with this abominable unbiblical teaching, who were convinced they could live a sinful lifestyle of practicing the works of the flesh, even Homosexuality, and think they would be welcomed into God's kingdom on the Day of judgement.


JLB

 

[OzSpen]

Yes, they were IN HIM. But they were not "abiding in Him".

That's an oxymoron of a statement.

 

[MarkT]

You've confused my statement. I never said eternal life is the definition of "gift". I said that Paul defined "gift" as eternal life. By the statement: eternal life is the free gift of God. Paul was defining what "gift of God" was; which is eternal life.

The dictionary tells us a definition fixes the meaning of a word. Ro. 6:23 says, "The free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

That is a factual statement. Paul isn't defining anything.

He is not giving us the meaning of the word 'gift'; We already know what a gift is. He is not giving us the meaning of the words 'eternal life'; We already know eternal life is life everlasting. If anything, Paul is saying eternal life is in Christ Jesus. That is a useful fact.

Now, how does this fact apply to Romans 11:29 ? It doesn't.

If anything, this fact, Romans 6:23, underscores what Jesus said, "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. John 15:5-6

Eternal life is in Christ Jesus. Those who do not reside or remain in Him will wither and die, and like dead branches, they will be burned/consumed in the fire.

So, how do you know that "the gifts are related to Jacob", when there is NO MENTION of 'gifts' anywhere in ch 11???

iow, there is no context for your view of what Paul meant by 'gifts' in 11:29.

Whereas, there is complete context for what Paul meant by 'gifts' in 11:29 in my view. He had already described what he meant by 'gifts of God' before he wrote 11:29.

So, I'll give you a huge advantage; please cite any Scripture where "gifts" are mentioned IN REFERENCE to Jacob.

Paul quoted the scripture which says, 'the Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob; and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins'. So he will banish ungodliness from Jacob. That's a gift. He will make a covenant with Jacob when he takes away their sins. That's a gift.

And Paul even tells us what he means by gifts in the same letter. Romans 12:6-8

And the higher gifts in

1 Corinthians 12:31
But earnestly desire the higher gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way.

And 1 Cor. 12-14 is all about the gifts

1 Corinthians 14:1
Make love your aim, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy.

 

[FreeGrace]

From where did you obtain that definition of apostasy? I do wish you would document your sources. Nothing was documented in your post #726. If you are going to continue to do this, we have no grounds for a reasonable discussion.

You mean you missed the 12 verses I cited?? The definition of the Greek word found in Heb 6:6 is from Strong's.

I did obtain your information about the meaning of parapiptw at: http://www.laparola.net/greco/parola.php?p=παραπίπτω. Here it stated that Thayer's Greek lexicon gave the meaning of this word for 'fall away/apostasy' as:

Thayer
1) to fall beside a person or thing
2) to slip aside
2a) to deviate from the right path, turn aside, wander
2b) to error
2c) to fall away (from the true faith): from worship of Jehovah
Part of Speech: verb
Citing in TDNT: 6:170, 846​

I have Thayer's lexicon in hard copy. What this abbreviated version failed to state was that 1), 2), 2a) where 'to deviate from the right path, turn aside, wander' related to the meaning of 2) 'to slip aside'.2b) should be the infinitive 'to err'. All of these meanings are from classical Greek authors Polybius and Xenophon and were NOT from the Bible. They are the meanings in these ancient Classical Greek authors.

Are you suggesting that the Bible re-defines some words?? Where would I find that teaching in the Bible?

What your abbreviated edition failed to mention was that 2c) was the only meaning that was from the Bible and it means 'to fall away (from the true faith); from the worship of Jehovah' (Ezek 14:13; 15:8) and 'from Christianity' (Heb 6:6) (Thayer 1885/1962:485). This is the meaning of apostasy as Arndt & Gingrich's lexicon confirms (as I've already provided above).

And? This is just what I said about apostasy. Leaving the faith. No longer believing what was once believed.

But where in the Bible is the teaching that if one falls away, they lose their salvation?

I know that this kind of definition is outside of your theological philosophy, but I want to be honest with the Greek exegesis of the text. It is possible to commit apostasy (fall away from the faith) in such a bad way that 'it is impossible' to restore their faith again.

And I agree.

The language of Heb 6:6 (ESV) is accurate that it is impossible 'to restore them again to repentance', i.e. the apostasy has caused them to reach a stage where repentance to obtain true faith is needed, but it is impossible for that to happen.

Correct. And yet, nothing about loss of salvation.

That's what Heb 6:6 (ESV) states. It's a challenging thing before God to want to minimise this serious situation. I was in Bible College with two students and then ministers who have now committed apostasy. They have repudiated Christ and their Christian faith. They are now secular pagans in their thinking and actions.

If they ever believed in Christ, then they WERE sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, a GUARANTEE for the day of redemption. Eph 1;13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5.

If these verses don't teach eternal security, then please take each verse and explain what it does mean then.

See Carl Wieland’s, ‘Death of an apostate’ (i.e. Charles Templeton). Templeton in the 1940s was a colleague of Billy Graham in Youth for Christ.

I am familiary with CT. He mentored Billy Graham when BG started out as an evangelist. They shared a room when travelling together throughout Europe doing crusades in the 40's.

Michael Patton has written this sad but challenging article, ‘Billy Graham and Charles Templeton: A Sad Tale of Two Evangelists’. Oz

Thanks for the link. Now I know what precipitated his fall. I thought it had to do with God commanded the Jews to kill everyone when they were taking the land. So he succumbed to evolution it seems.

However, I know that God's gifts are justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23), and that God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

Maybe that isn't so palatable for some, but I know that God IS grace.

We are saved by grace and we are kept by that very same grace.

All who have believed have been sealed with the Holy Spirit as a promise and guarantee for the day of redemption.
Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5

Heb 10:14 - For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

So, those who are sanctified (meaning believers) have been perfected for all time (forever). That's a long time.

I am as convinced of eternal security as you and I are convinced that Christ died for every human being in history.

 

[FreeGrace]

It's not hard to understand what gathered up and thrown into the fire and burned means.

They were in Christ, then they were removed from Him, and thrown into the fire and burned.

You can play silly games, with God's word here on earth, but the Day will certainly come when you will give an account for all the people that you persuaded, with this abominable unbiblical teaching, who were convinced they could live a sinful lifestyle of practicing the works of the flesh, even Homosexuality, and think they would be welcomed into God's kingdom on the Day of judgement.JLB

Justification and eternal life are gifts of God, and God's gifts are irrevocable.

 

[FreeGrace]

That's an oxymoron of a statement.

So, you don't understand the difference between fellowship and relationship?

 

[FreeGrace]

The dictionary tells us a definition fixes the meaning of a word. Ro. 6:23 says, "The free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

That is a factual statement. Paul isn't defining anything.

OK, let's go with "describing" then. Is that better?

One of God's gifts is eternal life. Agree?

He is not giving us the meaning of the word 'gift'; We already know what a gift is.

He is describing ONE of God's gifts that are irrevocable.

One of the other of God's gifts that is irrevocable is justification: Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17.

Paul noted 2 of God's gifts and then wrote that they are irrevocable.

Since he didn't describe any other things as gifts of God, when he wrote Rom 11:29 we must go to where he DID describe gifts of God. And they are irrevocable.

 

[JLB]

Ha! Paul described both justification and eternal life as gifts of God, and then wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable. You've failed to refute these verses from Scripture.

This unbiblical doctrine has been refuted many times.

• Eternal life is not mentioned in Romans 11:29

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29

• The context of Romans 11 shows that many Jews were "broken off" through unbelief.

20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. Romans 11:20-22

One must continue "IN CHRIST" by enduring to the end, to be saved.

These folks did not continue to remain connected in relationship to Him, and ended up thrown into the fire and burned.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

• Irrevocable does not mean what you are claiming, as you have redefined the original meaning of the word.

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Romans 11:29 KJV

Strongs # 278

not repentant of, unregretted

This Greek word is used in one other place in the New Testament.

8 For even if I made you sorry with my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it. For I perceive that the same epistle made you sorry, though only for a while. 9 Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death. 2 Corinthians 7:10

Likewise God doesn't regret giving the gifts or calling... for the gifts and calling are without regret.

• Eternal life is relationship with God through Jesus Christ

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3

This relationship was just explained by The Lord Himself to His disciples in chapter 15.

This relationship with Jesus Christ, was likened to a branch that is connected to a Vine.

As long as the branch remains connected to the vine, then the branch will be able to receive the "life" that comes from the Vine.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Your "theory", based on a misunderstanding of:

• What eternal life is, and how it flows from Jesus Christ to us.
• What "without repentance" means.
• The fact that eternal life is not mentioned in Romans 11:29
• Paul's explanation of who will receive eternal life, and who will not.
• The Context of Romans 11, and who had been broken off from covenant relationship through unbelief

As well as your redefining of what the words of scripture actually mean, so that they have a more modern and politically correct meaning, being aligned with post modern thought.


Paul clearly defines for us, the Christians who will and will not receive eternal life.

7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:7-8


JLB

 

[JLB]

One of God's gifts is eternal life. Agree?

Describe what eternal life is.

 

[JLB]

The verse isn't about being "blessed". It's about 'having been MADE perfect FOREVER'. Even while they are "being made holy". This is about those who have believed.

Fellowship here, NOT relationship. Discernment understands the difference.
But until one understands the difference between fellowship and relationship, one cannot "rightly divide the Word of Truth".

I see, more redefining of the words of scripture.


Unfortunately for your "theory", fellowship is what we are called to by God. I guess you are used to redefining scripture with post modern words, that you can't keep up with all the actual meanings.

God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. 1 Corinthians 1:9

2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us— 3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. 1 John 1:2-3


This Fellowship with God and Jesus Christ whom He sent is the very definition of eternal life.

Yes, they were IN HIM. But they were not "abiding in Him".

I see, so you are teaching a person can believe and be "in Christ", but because they don't abide "in Him", it's possible for them to be throw into the fire and burned.

That would be the end of your OSAS doctrine.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

This unbiblical doctrine has been refuted many times.

• Eternal life is not mentioned in Romans 11:29

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29

• The context of Romans 11 shows that many Jews were "broken off" through unbelief.

Because Paul gets to describe what he means by "gifts of God", and neither you nor I, we HAVE TO see what Paul described as "gifts of God".

And we DO find what he described as gifts of God. To claim that Rom 11 determines how to interpret Rom 11:29 is laughable. The ONLY gifts Paul mentioned prior to 11:29 is here:
1:11 spiritual gifts. They are irrevocable
3:24, 5:15,16,17 justification. This gift is irrevocable.
6:23 eternal life. This gift is irrevocable.

All these gifts of God are irrevocable.

Paul didn't need to insert the words "eternal life" in Rom 11:29 because he had already described justification and eternal life as gifts of God. So when he said "gifts of God" in 11:29, it is OBVIOUS that he meant what he had already described as gifts of God; namely, justification and eternal life.

Your attempt at interpretation is completely backwards.

Likewise God doesn't regret giving the gifts or calling... for the gifts and calling are without regret.

That is correct. When God gives the gift of eternal life and justification, He doesn't regret it. That MEANS He won't take it back. Quite simple.

Eternal life is relationship with God through Jesus Christ

Yes, just as the physical relationship between birth parent and their child is PERMANENT, so is our spiritual relationship with God through Jesus Christ.

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3

This relationship was just explained by The Lord Himself to His disciples in chapter 15.

You've confused fellowship with relationship. But since you haven't or can't discern the difference, you'll never understand how to rightly divide the Word of Truth.

This relationship with Jesus Christ, was likened to a branch that is connected to a Vine.

No it wasn't.

It is FELLOWSHIP that can be "broken off", just like a birth child and parent having no fellowship, even though their physical relationship remains intact and is permanent.

Can you break your relationship with your birth parents? No, you can't. Neither can you break your relationship with God. It is permanent. Because it is irrevocable.

As long as the branch remains connected to the vine, then the branch will be able to receive the "life" that comes from the Vine.

Erroneous opinion.

Your "theory", based on a misunderstanding of:

• What eternal life is, and how it flows from Jesus Christ to us.
• What "without repentance" means.
• The fact that eternal life is not mentioned in Romans 11:29
• Paul's explanation of who will receive eternal life, and who will not.
• The Context of Romans 11, and who had been broken off from covenant relationship through unbelief

As well as your redefining of what the words of scripture actually mean, so that they have a more modern and politically correct meaning, being aligned with post modern thought.

What has been totally misunderstood is the difference between relationship and fellowship. Those who don't understand this, and don't want to, will never be able to rightly divide the word of truth.

7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:7-8JLB

No human being has ever, nor ever will receive eternal life by "continuance in doing good". Paul himself proved that for those who keep reading in Romans.

He makes a similar claim in 2:13 about the law - for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Oh, really??? Then Paul wrote this in 3:20 - because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

This proves that no one will ever receive eternal life by doing good. In fact, Paul proves that from 3:9 and 3:23. All are under sin and all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

What does John 6:40 say about eternal life? “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

John 3:15, 16, 18, 5:24, 6:47, 11:25-27, 20:31

Why are these verses being so ignored?? I guess because they refute your ideas.

 

[FreeGrace]

Describe what eternal life is.

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.John 17:3

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus ourLord. Rom 6:23

Are you going to deny that eternal life is a gift of God??

When is the gift of God, which is eternal life, given?

John 5:24 answers that question: “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

This is how it works; when one believes, they HAVE eternal life. Then.