If I ask someone for a gift, did I earn it, or work for it when I got it handed to me?

[FreeGrace]

Did Moses depart from the living God is unbelief ?

The Bible describes his sin as unbelief:
Num 20:12 - But the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not trust in me enough to honor me as holy in the sight of the Israelites, you will not bring this community into the land I give them.”

Heb 3:19 says it this way:
So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

Deut 32:51 - This is because both of you broke faith with me in the presence of the Israelites at the waters of Meribah Kadesh in the Desert of Zin and because you did not uphold my holiness among the Israelites.

Define what sealed means in this verse.JLB

Which verse? I gave you 5 verses about the sealing with the Holy Spirit.

 

[FreeGrace]

Please show us where the phrase "eternal security" is found in the bible.


JLB

Just as soon as you find the verse that uses the word "trinity" in it.

 

[FreeGrace]

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Romans 11:29

Eternal life is not mentioned in Romans 11:29

I really have no idea why you keep up this charade. Paul defined eternal llfe as a gift of God in Rom 6:23. The next time he mentions God's gifts is 11:29 where he says they are irrevocable.

The dots are very close and easy to connect.

Eternal life is mentioned, before Romans 11, and is Found in Romans 2.

Except Paul actually defined eternal life as a gift of God in 6:23.

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:7-8

Eternal Life is also mentioned in Romans 6, as well as the result of those who practice sin, and receive the wages of such practice.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

Just as Romans 2 states the result of unrighteous disobedience which is sin, so does Romans 6.

...but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath.

Where are the words "loss of salvation" or "loss of eternal life" found ANYWHERE in the Bible?????

Please show us how it you decided to ignore what Romans 2 and Romans 6 say, only to try and use Romans 11:29, that does not even contain the phrase eternal life, to somehow "overrule" what Paul has clearly and plainly said previously in Romans 2 and Romans 6 that actually contain the phrase eternal life and plainly teach us who it is who will be given eternal life and those who will not.

Since Rom 3:20 proves that Paul never taught that eternal life could be earned by being good enough, your interpretation of 2:6,7 is erroneous.

But those who try to "mix and match" unrelated verses come up with mish-mash ideas.

 

[JLB]

The dots are very close and easy to connect.

No dots to try and connect.

7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:7-8

JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

I really have no idea why you keep up this charade.

For the same reason you keep up your charade.

Paul defined eternal llfe as a gift of God in Rom 6:23. The next time he mentions God's gifts is 11:29 where he says they are irrevocable.

First, Paul is talking about two different topics. At Ro 6:23 Paul is talking about eternal life and at 11:29 he is talking about Israel's status as God's chosen people.
Second, someone presenting me with a gift does not necessitate that I accept the gift or keep it. And if I do not accept or keep the gift, it still remains a gift. My rejection of the gift does not cause it to cease to be a gift.

Where are the words "loss of salvation" or "loss of eternal life" found ANYWHERE in the Bible?????

Right next to the word "Trinity."

I have posted multiple passages on several occasions which very clearly state that salvation can be lost, discarded, or taken from one. People don't see what they don't want to see. OSAS people don't want to see any scripture that refutes that teaching/ All I can do is post what God's inerrant and infallible sola scriptura says. I can't make anyone believe what is written. He who has eyes to see .....

Since Rom 3:20 proves that Paul never taught that eternal life could be earned by being good enough, your interpretation of 2:6,7 is erroneous.

One part of Romans cannot prove that Paul never taught what he taught in another part of Romans.

Rom 2:6-7 “(God) will render* to each one according to his deeds**”:
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

*render: to give, to reward
**deeds: what one does, works

Paul said in those two verses that God will reward eternal life to those who patiently continue doing good.

That does not change the fact that eternal life is a gift.
That does not make eternal life something anyone can earn.
It says that those who are obedient to Jesus command (Jhn 13:34, Mat 22:37-40) and do the good works that God created them to do (Eph 2:10) will be rewarded with eternal life in spite of the fact that they all have sinned and deserve a devil's hell. That award of eternal life is in recognition of being faithful.

 

[FreeGrace]

No dots to try and connect.

They are there for those with open eyes.

7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:7-8
JLB

Rom 3:20 proves that NO ONE can earn eternal life by works. Why not? Because all are under sin (Rom 3:9) and all have fallen short of the glory of God (Rom 3:23).

The ONLY way to receive eternal life is by believing in Christ.

1 Tim 1:16 - But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life.

There is it: believe and receive eternal life. Nothing about works.

I have explained Paul's point about Rom 2:6,7.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Paul defined eternal llfe as a gift of God in Rom 6:23. The next time he mentions God's gifts is 11:29 where he says they are irrevocable."

First, Paul is talking about two different topics.

No, he's not. He's talking about God's gifts in BOTH passages.

At Ro 6:23 Paul is talking about eternal life and at 11:29 he is talking about Israel's status as God's chosen people.

How do you know that? Paul NEVER uses the word "gift" or "gifts" for Israel's status anywhere in his writings. This is just an attempt to shift the focus away from eternal life AND justification as the gifts of God that are irrevocable.

Second, someone presenting me with a gift does not necessitate that I accept the gift or keep it. And if I do not accept or keep the gift, it still remains a gift. My rejection of the gift does not cause it to cease to be a gift.

And this is irrelevant to the discussion. We're talking about those who HAVE received the gift by faith. Further, eternal life isn't some object like a coin that can be lost, given back, etc.

The concept of eternal life encompasses many things that are irrevocable and irreversible.
Regeneration
new life
re-born
indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which Jesus promised would be with us forever
child of God

There are no passages that teach that any of these things can be lost, given back or away, etc.

I have posted multiple passages on several occasions which very clearly state that salvation can be lost, discarded, or taken from one.

No, you haven't. You only think they "very clearly state" that.

I challenge you to provide just ONE verse for each of the things you've claimed:
1 verse that very clearly states that salvation can be lost
1 verse that very clearly states that salvation can be discarded
1 verse that very clearly states that salvation can be taken from one

People don't see what they don't want to see.

Correct. Paul defined God's gifts as justification in Rom 3:24 and 5:15,16,17, and eternal life in Rom 6:23. The VERY NEXT TIME he mentioned "gifts of God" is Rom 11:29. Those are the gifts that he was describing. But you don't want to see that.

Instead, you want me to "see" that Rom 11 is about Israel's status is a gift, EVEN THOUGH Paul NEVER describes Israel's status as a gift ANYWHERE in his writings.

OSAS people don't want to see any scripture that refutes that teaching.

Just the opposite is true. As you keep demonstrating.

1. Eternal life is a gift of God that is irrevocable.
2. All believers have been sealed with the Holy Spirit, which is a deposit, guaranteeing that we are God's possession FOR the day of redemption.

All I can do is post what God's inerrant and infallible sola scriptura says. I can't make anyone believe what is written. He who has eyes to see …..

See the 2 points above.

One part of Romans cannot prove that Paul never taught what he taught in another part of Romans.

Correct.

Rom 2:6-7 “(God) will render* to each one according to his deeds**”:
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

*render: to give, to reward
**deeds: what one does, works

Paul said in those two verses that God will reward eternal life to those who patiently continue doing good.

Actually, he did NOT. One only has to keep reading to know what ELSE he did write.

In 2:13 he wrote: For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Kinda sounds just like 2:6,7 huh. But a bit later Paul wrote this:
3:20 - Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

Paul was not being contradictory. He was making a point: 2:6,7 and 2:13 only apply to those who are perfect. Such people wouldn't need Christ's sacrifice on their behalf.

But Paul dashes that idea out of the ball park in 3:20. Also, 3:9 and 3:23 prove that NO ONE can earn eternal life.

That does not change the fact that eternal life is a gift.

A gift that is irrevocable.

If you disagree, you're gonna have to prove that Paul clearly excluded that gift from 11:29.

That does not make eternal life something anyone can earn.

Correct!! No one can earn eternal life. It is given on the basis of grace through faith. NEVER works.

It says that those who are obedient to Jesus command (Jhn 13:34, Mat 22:37-40) and do the good works that God created them to do (Eph 2:10) will be rewarded with eternal life in spite of the fact that they all have sinned and deserve a devil's hell. That award of eternal life is in recognition of being faithful.

None of this stuff is Biblical. None of the verses cited say what you are claiming. Esp Eph 2:10. It does NOT say anyone will be rewarded with eternal life. It says that believers were created FOR good works. and 2:8 says that we are saved by grace through faith, NOT OF WORKS, lest anyone should boast.

That totally dashes your view.

 

[OzSpen]

Just as soon as you find the verse that uses the word "trinity" in it.

How about you provide us with a verse that gives this direct statement, 'Jesus is God'?

There is absolutely no need to find the word, 'Trinity', in the Bible when the doctrine itself is taught.

The deity of Christ is taught in passages such as
Hebrews 1:8

Titus 2:13

Romans 9:5

Colossians 2:9

John 1:1

John 5:23

John 10:33

Mark 10:18

There is absolutely no need for a statement, 'Jesus is God', when there are examples, stated in a slightly different way, that affirm the deity of Christ.

Same with the Trinity. There are amble verses to demonstrate that the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Spirit is God. Also, there are verses that affirm the unity of God. Therefore, the word 'Trinity' is not needed as a word in the Bible when the Bible provides clear teaching on it.

Oz

 

[JLB]

1 verse that very clearly states that salvation can be lost

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


This verse covers the process of a person being in Christ, in which they receive the eternal life He provides to them, then they are severed and removed from Christ who is the only source of eternal life and salvation.

What you have never shown, is the scripture that shows us a person who was in Christ, then later they were removed from Christ, yet still somehow have eternal life that only He can provide.

I would suppose the reason you have never posted any such scriptures is, they simply don't exist.

So the only defense you have left, is to somehow "redefine" what Jesus is teaching, as to mean something else, since this verse shows the person "IN CHRIST", then they are "cast out" or "broken off", as Romans 11 says, and are no longer "in Him".

This is unmistakable language that describes a person who doesn't remain connected to Christ are throw into the fire and burned.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

How about you provide us with a verse that gives this direct statement, 'Jesus is God'?

There is absolutely no need to find the word, 'Trinity', in the Bible when the doctrine itself is taught.

The deity of Christ is taught in passages such as
Hebrews 1:8

Titus 2:13

Romans 9:5

Colossians 2:9

John 1:1

John 5:23

John 10:33

Mark 10:18

There is absolutely no need for a statement, 'Jesus is God', when there are examples, stated in a slightly different way, that affirm the deity of Christ.

Same with the Trinity. There are amble verses to demonstrate that the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Spirit is God. Also, there are verses that affirm the unity of God. Therefore, the word 'Trinity' is not needed as a word in the Bible when the Bible provides clear teaching on it.

Oz

Hi Oz,

How are things?

My question was facetious. Of course Jesus is God.

 

[FreeGrace]

I asked for a very clear verse that states that salvation can be lost.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

And this isn't one. This verse speaks of beingcast out as a withered branch and burned. It's a METAPHOR. I asked for a verse that actually speaks of salvation and that it can be lost. All you've provided are misunderstood metaphors.

This verse covers the process of a person being in Christ, in which they receive the eternal life He provides to them, then they are severed and removed from Christ who is the only source of eternal life and salvation.

Such an "interpretation" is obviously in error, because Paul defined God's gifts as being justification in Rom 3:24 and 5:15,16,17, and eternal life in Rom 6:23. The VERY NEXT USE of the word gifts is found in 11:29 where Paul stated that God's gifts (justification and eternal life, previously DEFINED) are irrevocable.

Since justification and eternal life are irrevocable, your "interpretation" cannot be true.

What you have never shown, is the scripture that shows us a person who was in Christ, then later they were removed from Christ, yet still somehow have eternal life that only He can provide.

Because there are NO verses that say that anyone has been "removed from Christ" in the sense that you use it wrongly. Abiding in Christ is about fellowship, not relationship.

Our relationship is SECURE, which is clearly taught in Rom 8:35-39, John 10:28,29, and Eph 1:13,14, 4:30.

It's our fellowship that waxes and wanes.

So the only defense you have left, is to somehow "redefine" what Jesus is teaching, as to mean something else, since this verse shows the person "IN CHRIST", then they are "cast out" or "broken off", as Romans 11 says, and are no longer "in Him".

The only "re-defining" being done on this thread is by yourself.

This is unmistakable language that describes a person who doesn't remain connected to Christ are throw into the fire and burned.

This is an agricultural metaphor about those who are not in fellowship and therefore useless in service for Christ, are no longer in service (cast out).

Your "interpretation" is impossible because of the clear teaching on eternal security.

I've given the verse about God killing King Saul for seeking a medium, yet Samuel told Saul that he would join him (in Paradise, obviously) the next day.

The proves that even loser believers will go to heaven after death.

And I gave 1 Thess 5:4-10, which contrasts day and night and being awake or sleeping and concludes that "whether we are awake or sleep, we WILL BE TOGETHER with Him". Eternal security.

 

[OzSpen]

Hi Oz,

How are things?

My question was facetious. Of course Jesus is God.

Whew! I'm so pleased for that.

May you and yours have a blessed Christmas season.

Oz

 

[MarkT]

I really have no idea why you keep up this charade. Paul defined eternal llfe as a gift of God in Rom 6:23. The next time he mentions God's gifts is 11:29 where he says they are irrevocable.

Romans 6:23 is a factual statement. It is not a defining statement. Eternal life is not a definition of gift. Romans 6:23 does not allow you to substitute 'eternal life' for 'gift' whenever you see the word 'gift'.

And obviously Paul has more than one gift in mind when he says 'gifts', and the gifts are related to Jacob, as Paul says, "I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
“and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.” Romans 11:25-27

 

[OzSpen]

Where are the words "loss of salvation" or "loss of eternal life" found ANYWHERE in the Bible?????.

FreeGrace,

The exact word, 'Trinity', is not found in the Bible, but the teaching on the Trinity is there. The exact words, 'Jesus is God', are not in Scripture, but the teaching on Jesus' deity is there.

In the same way, 'loss of salvation' or 'loss of eternal life' is not the exact language used, but the teaching on loss of salvation is there. We find it in this kind of language:

1. Those who commit apostasy, cannot be restored to repentance:

For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt (Heb 6:4-6 ESV, emphasis added).​

'Have fallen away' is from the Greek verb, parapiptw, which Arndt & Gingrich's Greek lexicon gives the meaning in Heb 6:6 as 'fall away, commit apostasy' (A&G 1957:626). Thayer's Greek lexicon provides the meaning of parapiptw as 'in Scriptures, to fall away (from the true faith): from the worship of Jehovah, Ezek. 14:13; 15:8...; from Christianity, Heb 6:6' (Thayer 1885/1962:485).

Leading Greek exegete from the 20th century, Dr A T Robertson, in commenting on the seriousness of the consequences of this apostasy in Heb 6:6 stated, 'It is a terrible picture and cannot be toned down.... This is why renewal for such apostates is impossible. They crucify Christ. And put him to an open shame....In a bad sense to expose to disgrace' (Robertson 1932:375-376).

Thus, in the Greek, whether LXX or NT, parapiptw means that it is possible to commit apostasy and fall away from the true faith in Christ. In English, apostasy means 'The abandonment or renunciation of a religious or political belief or principle' (Oxford dictionaries 2015. S v apostasy). That's what it meant in the LXX and NT as well.

2. It is possible to shipwreck one's faith.

We have this verse that speaks of 'holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith' (1 Tim 1:19 ESV, emphasis added).

In this verse, the verb, 'have made shipwreck' is nauagew which means literally in ancient Greek 'to suffer shipwreck' and is the word used for Paul's physical shipwreck in 2 Cor 11:25 (ESV). It is used metaphorically with respect to shipwreck of one's faith (1 Tim 1:19 ESV) (Thayer 1885/1962:423). Arndt & Gingrich (1957:536) affirm the same meaning as Thayer, literally and metaphorically.

Note the emphasis that this has applied to 'some' Christians who were supposed to be 'holding faith and a good conscience' and have rejected this faith and so have shipwrecked their faith (1 Tim 1:19 ESV).

Oz

Works consulted

Arndt, W F & Gingrich, F W 1957. A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature.[1] Chicago: The University of Chicago Press (limited edition licensed to Zondervan Publishing House).

Robertson, A T 1932. Word pictures in the New Testament: The fourth Gospel, the epistle to the Hebrews, vol 5. Nashville, Tennessee: Broadman Press.

Thayer, J H 1885/1962.Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament being Grimm’s Wilke’s Clavis Novi Testamenti, tr, rev, enl. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House.

Notes

[1] This is ‘a translation and adaptation of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Wörtbuch zu den Schriften des Neuen Testaments und der übrigen urchristlichen Literatur’ (4th rev & augmented edn 1952) (Arndt & Gingrich 1957:iii).

 

[FreeGrace]

Whew! I'm so pleased for that.

May you and yours have a blessed Christmas season.

Oz

The very same to you!!

 

[FreeGrace]

Romans 6:23 is a factual statement. It is not a defining statement. Eternal life is not a definition of gift.

You've confused my statement. I never said eternal life is the definition of "gift". I said that Paul defined "gift" as eternal life. By the statement: eternal life is the free gift of God. Paul was defining what "gift of God" was; which is eternal life.

Romans 6:23 does not allow you to substitute 'eternal life' for 'gift' whenever you see the word 'gift'.

Why not? How is your opinion the authority here? It is Paul who defined what he meant by "gift" throughout Romans. He gets to define what he means by "gift", and he did so.

1:11 spiritual gifts - they are from God
3:24, 5:15,16,17 justification - this is from God
6:23 eternal life - this is from God

These are what Paul described as "gifts of God"

So when he wrote that "God's gifts are irrevocable", we KNOW what he was referring to: spiritual gifts, justification and eternal life.

[Personal characterization. ToS 2.4. WIP]

And obviously Paul has more than one gift in mind when he says 'gifts'

And I just pointed out ALL the gifts that Paul described before he wrote 11:29.

and the gifts are related to Jacob, as Paul says, "I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
“and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.” Romans 11:25-27

So, how do you know that "the gifts are related to Jacob", when there is NO MENTION of 'gifts' anywhere in ch 11???

iow, there is no context for your view of what Paul meant by 'gifts' in 11:29.

Whereas, there is complete context for what Paul meant by 'gifts' in 11:29 in my view. He had already described what he meant by 'gifts of God' before he wrote 11:29.

So, I'll give you a huge advantage; please cite any Scripture where "gifts" are mentioned IN REFERENCE to Jacob.

 

[JLB]

And this isn't one. This verse speaks of being cast out as a withered branch and burned. It's a METAPHOR. I asked for a verse that actually speaks of salvation and that it can be lost. All you've provided are misunderstood metaphors.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

This teaches us:
People [anyone] who believe the Gospel and are "in Christ", then later these same people who were in Christ, are severed and removed from Christ, then these people are thrown into the fire and burned.

Anyone, he, them, they are all references to people. People who were in Christ.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

FreeGrace,

The exact word, 'Trinity', is not found in the Bible, but the teaching on the Trinity is there. The exact words, 'Jesus is God', are not in Scripture, but the teaching on Jesus' deity is there.

Correct! And we see very clear wording that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all called "God", which proves that God is Three in One. My point is that there is no clear teaching on loss of salvation in the Bible. It's all just assumption of verses that are not specifically clear about it. And there are clear verses on eternal security.

In fact, the verses on eternal security are as clear as the verses on unlimited atonement.

In the same way, 'loss of salvation' or 'loss of eternal life' is not the exact language used, but the teaching on loss of salvation is there. We find it in this kind of language:

1. Those who commit apostasy, cannot be restored to repentance:

For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt (Heb 6:4-6 ESV, emphasis added).​

But there is a very logical and reasonable explanation for this passage that doesn't involve loss of salvation.

How does "restored to repentance" even relate to the status of loss of salvation. Repentance isn't a one time thing. We need to turn from sin every time we do sin. This isn't the basis of maintaining our salvation.​

'Have fallen away' is from the Greek verb, parapiptw, which Arndt & Gingrich's Greek lexicon gives the meaning in Heb 6:6 as 'fall away, commit apostasy' (A&G 1957:626). Thayer's Greek lexicon provides the meaning of parapiptw as 'in Scriptures, to fall away (from the true faith): from the worship of Jehovah, Ezek. 14:13; 15:8...; from Christianity, Heb 6:6' (Thayer 1885/1962:485).

Leading Greek exegete from the 20th century, Dr A T Robertson, in commenting on the seriousness of the consequences of this apostasy in Heb 6:6 stated, 'It is a terrible picture and cannot be toned down.... This is why renewal for such apostates is impossible. They crucify Christ. And put him to an open shame....In a bad sense to expose to disgrace' (Robertson 1932:375-376).

Yes, apostasy is very serious, but does not lead to loss of salvation, no matter how much it may offend and disgust people.

Is God a God of grace or not? He is, and Christ died for all sins. So no matter the sin, Christ already paid for it. Because of grace.

We are saved by grace, and kept by that very same grace.

We didn't earn or deserve our salvation, and therefore we can't earn or deserve loss of salvation. Grace goes both ways.

Thus, in the Greek, whether LXX or NT, parapiptw means that it is possible to commit apostasy and fall away from the true faith in Christ. In English, apostasy means 'The abandonment or renunciation of a religious or political belief or principle' (Oxford dictionaries 2015. S v apostasy). That's what it meant in the LXX and NT as well.

I fully agree with what apostasy means. However, 1 Thess 5:4-10
"4 But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.
5 You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness.
6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and self controlled.
7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night.
8 But since we belong to the day, let us be self controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet.
9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him."

This passage contrasts 2 lifestyles; sons of light and day vs belonging to the night or darkness. v.4,5
Or being asleep vs being alert and self controlled. v.6
Paul admonishes in v.6 that believers are not to be like unbelievers.
v.7 is a statement about lifestyle of unbelievers as well as believers. From the phrase "let us NOT BE LIKE those…"
v.8 is an admonishment on how to live, since we belong to the day (light).
v.9 is a reminder of WHY we have believed: to avoid wrath and to receive salvation.
v.10 is the KEY: "whether we are awake (alert) or asleep (lifestyle of the unbeliever), we may live together with Him".

iow, despite lifestyle, we will live with Him. That is the message.

2. It is possible to shipwreck one's faith.

We have this verse that speaks of 'holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith' (1 Tim 1:19 ESV, emphasis added).

There is nothing here to suggest loss of salvation. It also speaks of apostasy.

In this verse, the verb, 'have made shipwreck' is nauagew which means literally in ancient Greek 'to suffer shipwreck' and is the word used for Paul's physical shipwreck in 2 Cor 11:25 (ESV). It is used metaphorically with respect to shipwreck of one's faith (1 Tim 1:19 ESV) (Thayer 1885/1962:423). Arndt & Gingrich (1957:536) affirm the same meaning as Thayer, literally and metaphorically.

Note the emphasis that this has applied to 'some' Christians who were supposed to be 'holding faith and a good conscience' and have rejected this faith and so have shipwrecked their faith (1 Tim 1:19 ESV).

Even Jesus noted those who "believe for a while, and in time of testing/temptation fall away". Yet, there is no mention of loss of salvation in that parable. Only loss of fruit production.

Paul described 3 things as 'gifts of God' in Romans:
1:11 spiritual gifts
3:24 and 5:15,16,17 justification
6:23 eternal life

Then, he wrote 11:29 - the gifts of God are irrevocable.

That's very clear to me.

Also, consider Heb 10:14 - because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

How would you explain what 'has made perfect FOREVER' means? It is clear that "those who are being made holy" refers to those who have believed. And note the tense of "has made perfect".

 

[FreeGrace]

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

This teaches us:
People [anyone] who believe the Gospel and are "in Christ", then later these same people who were in Christ, are severed and removed from Christ, then these people are thrown into the fire and burned.

Anyone, he, them, they are all references to people. People who were in Christ.


JLB

Please read post #718 and explain Heb 10:14 - because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

 

[JLB]

Please read post #718 and explain Heb 10:14 - because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

My post doesn't involve Hebrews.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

This teaches us:
People [anyone] who believe the Gospel and are "in Christ", then later these same people who were in Christ, are severed and removed from Christ, then these people are thrown into the fire and burned.

Anyone, he, them, they are all references to people. People who were in Christ.


Were these people in this teaching, that were thrown into the fire and burned, "in Him" ?





JLB