JLB discusses speaking in tongues

[JLB]

You can't get there from here...
Or
You can't get here from there.

Meaning
Your question is incongruent.

My question is perfectly relevant, and very simple.



Since your theology is against the term born again, I will use the term regeneration.

But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:4-7


Do you believe baptism takes place before or after regeneration?





JLB

 

[JLB]

What is more important, the gift or the altar it is put upon?

I have understood you clearly for several years now how you take Gods work and reduce it to man's deeds.

I don’t teach this nor do I believe that man’s deeds are a substitute for God’s work: God working in and through us.


However, You are free to say anything you want about me.


I just plainly stated for all to see that I believe all three baptisms are from God.


Does God force us or make us get baptized?

Does God force us or make us believe the Gospel and become saved, regenerated, born again?



JLB

 

[JohnDB]

you believe baptism takes place before or after regeneration?

Which one of the 12 baptisms (you speak of) are you referring to ?

I know of water and Spirit... other than that I know of nothing else.

Baptism has a root that is a word that means to dye cloth or thread or yarn...one batch of dye is different from all others even if they are supposedly the same color.

But we are all dyed (changed/marked) with the same batch of dye...one baptism for all. Silk rope vx cotton rope looks a bit different from the other not because of the batch of dye but because of the material being dyed.

So...
No matter how many times a piece of clothing is dyed it's still going to be the same color...no richer, no lighter, no difference whatsoever.

 

[JLB]

Jesus commands us to baptize in His name. That is to say we baptize not on our authority, but the very authority of God for it is not man who baptizes, but God.

No sir, John the Baptist is not God, nor was the man who baptized me in water.


God granted them the authority but the did the baptizing.


Just like the Gospel is preached by a human being, but on God’s authority through those whom He sends.

The Gospel Message is God’s Message to mankind, preached by those whom He sends.


How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:16-17



JLB

 

[JLB]

I know of water and Spirit... other than that I know of nothing else.

Water Baptism.


Does it take place before of after a person is born again, or born from above, or regenerated?



JLB

 

[JohnDB]

Water Baptism.


Does it take place before of after a person is born again, or born from above, or regenerated?



JLB

Dunno.
I don't claim to know the hearts of men...and I know even less about women.

 

[JLB]

But we are all dyed (changed/marked) with the same batch of dye...one baptism for all. Silk rope vx cotton rope looks a bit different from the other not because of the batch of dye but because of the material being dyed.

I agree we who are baptized are all baptized by the same Spirit, and made to drink into the same Spirit.



For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13



This is when the Spirit baptizes us into Christ when we are regenerated, through believing/obeying the Gospel.


Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:22-23

• having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God

JLB

 

[JohnDB]

If we were on the phone talking id break into my Speedy Gonzales voice and say, umbra, umbra, andale andale!

I say, I say boy, yea gotta keep on your toes, a fast one just went past yea!

John Duh Baptist... forgot about him too.

Sigh
I'm getting slower than molasses in January

 

[JLB]

Dunno.
I don't claim to know the hearts of men...and I know even less about women.

You don’t know if we are to be baptized in water after we believe or not?

If not after we believe, then baptism would be for unbelievers.


Here is what Phillip teaches -

• And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?” Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”

So the eunuch answered Philip and said, “I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?” Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.
Acts 8:34-38



JLB

 

[JohnDB]

You don’t know if we are to be baptized in water after we believe or not?

If not after we believe, then baptism would be for unbelievers.


Here is what Phillip teaches -

• And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?” Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”

So the eunuch answered Philip and said, “I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?” Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.
Acts 8:34-38



JLB

Then how on Earth did Simeon Magnus become baptized? (The one who offered money for the power of the Holy Spirit)

 

[stovebolts]

No sir, John the Baptist is not God, nor was the man who baptized me in water.


God granted them the authority but the did the baptizing.


Just like the Gospel is preached by a human being, but on God’s authority through those whom He sends.

JLB

Hmmm... Im not sure what you're arguing about. But I can tell by your first sentence that you misunderstood me.

You see, I agree, John is not God and if somehow you think anything I said implied I was saying John or your preacher, or anyone else you can think of was God, then we can clear up that little misunderstanding right now.

I am glad you understand John did not Baptise on his own authority, but rather on Gods. Since Scripture says Johns baptism was from heaven, then we know it was Gods work, not Johns.

I know it can get confusing for some. Even the church in Corinth had an identity issue when they thought the man doing the baptizing was doing so on his own authority. Paul put it like this,

Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name.

It's easy to get caught up in thinking Gods work is mans work, and the issue of baptism being mans work and not Gods work has been confusing Christians for some time now.

 

[JLB]

Then how on Earth did Simeon Magnus become baptized? (The one who offered money for the power of the Holy Spirit)

He believed and then he was baptized.


Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done. Acts 8:13


My point, and I made it using scripture, is baptism in water comes after we believe and are saved; born again.


Face it John it’s very simple.

Baptism in water is for those who believe and are saved.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Johns baptism was for repentance. Jesus baptism is for the forgiveness of sins.

I disagree.


We are forgiven of our sins when we repent.


Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit after we repent.


His baptism is to empower us for ministry and to be witnesses for Him.


But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” Acts 1:8




JLB

 

[JLB]

To anyone -

Which one of these baptisms do you believe are relevant for the the Church today?


Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
1 Corinthians 10:1-2


all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,


From the Old Testament we see Paul showing us the three distinct baptisms.


These correlate to and represent

Moses = Baptized into Christ
The Cloud = The Baptism with the Holy Spirit
The Sea = Water Baptism




JLB

 

[Randy]

I take it by your answer you are denying that Paul is showing from the Old Testament that there were three baptisms foreshadowed for us today.


Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
1 Corinthians 10:1-2

• all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,

Can you tell us which of these theee baptisms that you believe are not needed today?


Same question to you Stovebolts.




JLB

Not again
Only one thing is needed.
How God grafts the branches into the true vine.
Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit.
Randy

 

[Randy]

Yes, of course John did not baptize with the Holy Spirit. Johns Baptism was by the authority of God and was a baptism of Repentance which is my point. Johns Baptism was not "man's" baptism.

We see John acting by the authority of God. What authority do you think the water functioned, or do you believe the water did not play a role in Johns baptism for repentance other than getting a person wet as a public display?

Just so you know, I believe the water functioned under Gods authority as much as John functioned under Gods authority.

I think the forgiveness of sin is found only in Jesus. John was preparing the people for Jesus. John baptized with water. Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit.

But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

When John, who was in prison, heard about the deeds of the Messiah, he sent his disciples to ask him, “Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else?”

Jesus replied, “Go back and report to John what you hear and see: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy b are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is proclaimed to the poor. Blessed is anyone who does not stumble on account of me.”

As John’s disciples were leaving, Jesus began to speak to the crowd about John: “What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed swayed by the wind? If not, what did you go out to see? A man dressed in fine clothes? No, those who wear fine clothes are in kings’ palaces. Then what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. This is the one about whom it is written:

“ ‘I will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way before you.’



Randy

 

[JohnDB]

The wicked are like the sea...
Isaiah 57:20 (NIV)

 

[Randy]

However the gift of the Spirit is given. Laying on of hands or not, while being baptized into the name of Christ in water or a different time its only performed once. I don't accept a 2nd work of grace that changes my being. Christ in us is a new creation. And if you have the Spirit of Christ in you then you are one with Jesus. That Spirit can be given without outward signs given. Speaking in tongues, prophesying etc.. That doesn't mean I don't believe the testimony given in the NT when those outward signs and wonders were poured out into a pagan world testifying about this new birth. New birth as the whole branch of discussion began with the term born again .

I believe in Him.
“If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.

If they had answered yes no additional work of God would be required or needed. They would be born of God. The children of God and one with Jesus. And as in all things its from the Father and through the Son. The Spirit "Jesus" sends He received from the Father.

How can one be born anew of the Spirit and not be one with Jesus? Why would it then require a additional work of grace-baptism by the Holy Spirit? Therefore Cornelius and those who did not have the Spirit were born again when the Spirit came on them. It was not a 2nd baptism by God. It was the baptism. Not a 2nd work of grace.

 

[JLB]

Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit.

I agree.


However it is after a person is born again.



JLB

 

[JLB]

However the gift of the Spirit is given. Laying on of hands or not, while being baptized into the name of Christ in water or a different time its only performed once.

A person must first believe and be born again, then they are baptized.


Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.
Acts 8:35-38

• Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”

Do you believe a person is saved, born again, regenerated when they believe?





JLB