JLB discusses speaking in tongues

[JLB]

not what the Bible says it does say praying in the Holy ghost which i dont see as tongues

He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 1 Corinthians 14:4

• He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself

Edify - oikodomeō. Strongs G3618

to build a house, erect a building

1. 1. to build (up from the foundation)
   2. to restore by building, to rebuild, repair
2. metaph.
   1. to found, establish
   2. to promote growth in Christian wisdom, affection, grace, virtue, holiness, blessedness
   3. to grow in wisdom and piety

JLB

 

[stovebolts]

You have watched my post what I believe with the scriptures, yet you never comment one way or another.


Maybe now would be the time for you to openly express what you believe.


Let’s start by a simple question and hopefully you will just give a simple answer.


Do you believe their are 3 distinct baptisms?


for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Acts 1:5




JLB

Actually, you have asked me this very question multiple times in various other threads and I have answered you multiple times in various ways. If you don't understand what I believe by now, then I don't know how me repeating myself once again would make any difference.

I've been on this site since 2002. 2004 is when we moved to Vbulliten and our registration dates switched to 2004. Please feel free to use the search function of this site and you'll find plenty on what I believe.

Here is my question to you.

You said, "It seems you are saying there isn’t a baptism with the Holy Spirit"

What was it that I said that made it seem like I was saying anything remotely close to this?

 

[WIP]

I have never spoken in tongues. Speaking in tongues is a mystery to me.

In some respects, actually most respects, it seems that when it happens it is not something that the speaker makes a conscious effort to do. In other words, it is something of a miracle that comes through the Holy Spirit such as it was when the apostles spoke in various languages outside of their own control.

But there are some parts of the Bible as explained by Paul that seem to describe it as a human thing and that the speaker can choose to do it.

But, what then is it? Just nonsensical babble from a human or something far more powerful coming from the Holy Spirit?

 

[JLB]

I have never spoken in tongues. Speaking in tongues is a mystery to me.

In some respects, actually most respects, it seems that when it happens it is not something that the speaker makes a conscious effort to do. In other words, it is something of a miracle that comes through the Holy Spirit such as it was when the apostles spoke in various languages outside of their own control.

But there are some parts of the Bible as explained by Paul that seem to describe it as a human thing and that the speaker can choose to do it.

But, what then is it? Just nonsensical babble from a human or something far more powerful coming from the Holy Spirit?

Great synopsis.


It’s a spiritual language.


Paul called it the tongues of men and angels.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Actually, you have asked me this very question multiple times in various other threads and I have answered you multiple times in various ways. If you don't understand what I believe by now, then I don't know how me repeating myself once again would make any difference.

I've been on this site since 2002. 2004 is when we moved to Vbulliten and our registration dates switched to 2004. Please feel free to use the search function of this site and you'll find plenty on what I believe.

Here is my question to you.

You said, "It seems you are saying there isn’t a baptism with the Holy Spirit"

What was it that I said that made it seem like I was saying anything remotely close to this?

If you don’t want to answer my question, then so be it.


I understand.


Please don’t think I going search the archives for what you may or may not believe.


Here’s my question.


Do you believe their are 3 distinct baptisms?


for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Acts 1:5



Either you will answer it or you won’t.


If you don’t, then don’t bother asking me anymore more questions about this topic.



JLB

 

[JLB]

What was it that I said that made it seem like I was saying anything remotely close to this?

You asked me this before I asked you, so it’s only fair that I answer this one.


Your explaination was such that you seem to believe that God gives some people the baptism with the Holy Spirit, while others He requires water baptism.


This is based on your statement and scripture that says to each man is given a measure of faith.



JLB

 

[stovebolts]

You asked me this before I asked you, so it’s only fair that I answer this one.


Your explaination was such that you seem to believe that God gives some people the baptism with the Holy Spirit, while others He requires water baptism.


This is based on your statement and scripture that says to each man is given a measure of faith.



JLB

Let me hit two birds with one stone.
First, there are way more than 3 baptisms, but there are only three that you are concerned with. It is difficult to converse with you on these three because you parse each one and place them in individual boxes. Im fine with that, and I don't see any harm with your understanding since it helps you to understand the workings of God.

What I'm not fine with is when my beliefs don't have any room in how you box things and you push me to conform my beliefs to yours perfectly. When I resist, you automatically assume a false idea on my believe.

To clearly and simply state my believe, there is one baptism. In regard to the Holy Spirit, let me break this down in a simple manner.

1. Some receive the Holy Spirit prior to water baptism.
2. Some receive the Holy Spirit during water baptism.
3. Some receive it after water baptism.

What is normative in scripture, is that water baptism is a response to the Gospel and the Holy Spirit is imparted upon being immersed in water for the remission of sin.

Again, there are exceptions to the rule as noted in answer 2 and 3. As a result, I take note of these exceptions, but I do not obsess over them.

I understand that your thinking is much more precise and you like to look at this one baptism as three separate events. While three separate events you parse and box do occur for most people, these three make up the whole of "One Baptism" in my view.

I have explained this to you before, so I hope you can meditate on what I am saying and try to comprehend what I believe without thinking I am saying that Christians don't receive the Holy Spirit.

I do believe in a normative since, and by normative I have mentioned two exceptions above, and there are more exceptions, but to the rule, water baptism is required. If we look at the requirement as a burden or a line in the sand that separates us from heaven, then we've missed the point of water baptism and its proper place in scripture. Again, water baptism is a response to the Gospel. If it is done for any other reason, I believe the requirement turns into a work of man and holds little value with God.

 

[ezra]

He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 1 Corinthians 14:4

• He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself

Edify - oikodomeō. Strongs G3618

to build a house, erect a building

1. 1. to build (up from the foundation)
   2. to restore by building, to rebuild, repair
2. metaph.
   1. to found, establish
   2. to promote growth in Christian wisdom, affection, grace, virtue, holiness, blessedness
   3. to grow in wisdom and piety

JLB

i was aware of Corinthians before i posted .you used Jude i am going to ask you some HARD questions --i expect Christ like replies ..like wip i dont understand tongues . i am some what skeptical due to the services of confusion i have sat in .. so here goes

• 1. to build (up from the foundation)
  2. to restore by building, to rebuild, repair
• metaph.
  1. to found, establish
  2. to promote growth in Christian wisdom, affection, grace, virtue, holiness, blessedness
  3. to grow in wisdom and piety
• since i have never spoke in tongues --i dont have any of these characteristic as listed by definition. might i add i have the baptism of the spirit it was given to me when i was saved in that process i was justified and then sanctified which is 3 step progress . 1. i was positional set apart placed in the Body of Christ 2. i became a w i p through growth i am becoming more holy /holiness .which we all need more of.
• 
  
• so in your opinion where is a person in the walk with Christ by not speaking in tongues ?
• once again i will be respectful to you..
• yes i know those who say speaking in tongues is of the devil or some will say tongues ceased after Pentecost. i do not hold this view. i see it as a Gift and not all will speak in tongues .
• that is my point of view..i await your reply

 

[JLB]

since i have never spoke in tongues --i dont have any of these characteristic as listed by definition. might i add i have the baptism of the spirit it was given to me when i was saved in that process i was justified and then sanctified which is 3 step progress . 1. i was positional set apart placed in the Body of Christ 2. i became a w i p through growth i am becoming more holy /holiness .which we all need more of.

How do you know you have been baptized with the Holy Spirit?




JLB

 

[JLB]

Let me hit two birds with one stone.
First, there are way more than 3 baptisms, but there are only three that you are concerned with. It is difficult to converse with you on these three because you parse each one and place them in individual boxes. Im fine with that, and I don't see any harm with your understanding since it helps you to understand the workings of God.

Please share from the scriptures all the baptisms available to the Church.




JLB

 

[JLB]

To clearly and simply state my believe, there is one baptism. In regard to the Holy Spirit, let me break this down in a simple manner.

1. Some receive the Holy Spirit prior to water baptism.
2. Some receive the Holy Spirit during water baptism.
3. Some receive it after water baptism.

Ok.


How does one know that they have been baptized with the Holy Spirit?




JLB

 

[JLB]

I understand that your thinking is much more precise and you like to look at this one baptism as three separate events. While three separate events you parse and box do occur for most people, these three make up the whole of "One Baptism" in my view.

Could you articulate the three baptisms from Scripture?



JLB

 

[ezra]

How do you know you have been baptized with the Holy Spirit?

because i have the spirit of the LIVING GOD in me might i add i would not be able to do ministry with out it ,, but i dont speak in tongues and you say ?
Acts 1:8

“But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”

John 1:12

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”

how do i know the Bible tells me so.... see our disagreement is i have to have hands laid in me to have the spirit . when i was ordained hands was laid on me but i already had the spirit . where does our power come from?


what your having issues with is interpretation ..just like osas depends on who you ask... to show you i will give 2 different links https://www.charismamag.com/site-ar...ng/9237-how-to-be-baptized-in-the-holy-spirit

https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/you-will-be-baptized-with-the-holy-spirit

 

[JLB]

because i have the spirit of the LIVING GOD in me might i add i would not be able to do ministry with out it ,, but i dont speak in tongues and you say ?
Acts 1:8

“But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”

John 1:12

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”

how do i know the Bible tells me so.... see our disagreement is i have to have hands laid in me to have the spirit . when i was ordained hands was laid on me but i already had the spirit . where does our power come from?


what your having issues with is interpretation ..just like osas depends on who you ask... to show you i will give 2 different links https://www.charismamag.com/site-ar...ng/9237-how-to-be-baptized-in-the-holy-spirit

https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/you-will-be-baptized-with-the-holy-spirit

So there was no evidence that could be seen and heard when you were baptized with the Holy Spirit?


Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. Acts 2:33

• He poured out this which you now see and hear.

JLB

 

[ezra]

So there was no evidence that could be seen and heard when you were baptized with the Holy Spirit?

gosh see hard to see the spirit..but you can see the evidence and you can feel his presence ? LOOK i am not interested in games/// if you want to answer my questions directly great if not just say so.. i am not into tip toe and beat around the bush.. in essence what your implying is i have not been baptized by the spirit ,because i have not spoke in tongues ..plz dont try mind games with me.. straight up answers

 

[JLB]

gosh see hard to see the spirit..but you can see the evidence and you can feel his presence ?

My point exactly.


When a person is baptized with the Holy Spirit, you can’t see Him.

However there is biblical evidence when it happens that can be seen or heard.



Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. Acts 2:33

• He poured out this which you now see and hear.

What did they see and hear on the day of Pentecost?


And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Acts 2:4


again



And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Acts 10:45-46



again


And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”
And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?”
So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Acts 19:1-6


The evidence of a person receiving the baptism with the Holy Spirit is they speak with tongues.



JLB

 

[ezra]

The evidence of a person receiving the baptism with the Holy Spirit is they speak with tongues.

totally disagree i can show many dedicated Christians that have not.. this is confined to mainly the Pentecostals few others in other denoms.. as i stated early on iam not even sure the tongues used today is the same as at Pentecost.. this dont make me right and you wrong .i have respect for all denoms that preach the truth .. i see many worshiping the gift . you have presented no evidence of the need for me to speak in tongues .other than that i am done

 

[Randy]

My point exactly.


When a person is baptized with the Holy Spirit, you can’t see Him.

However there is biblical evidence when it happens that can be seen or heard.



Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. Acts 2:33

• He poured out this which you now see and hear.

What did they see and hear on the day of Pentecost?


And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Acts 2:4


again



And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Acts 10:45-46



again


And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”
And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?”
So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Acts 19:1-6


The evidence of a person receiving the baptism with the Holy Spirit is they speak with tongues.



JLB

I have never spoke in other languages as enabled by the spirit of God. I have the Spirit of Christ in me. So if Paul asked me, "did you receive the Spirit ?", my answer would be yes. How God gives the Spirit is up to Him. The Spirit was the promise not the method.
Cornelius is another example of one who didn't previously have the spirit and received the gift via the Spirit coming on Him and those with him while Peter was speaking to them about Jesus.

I do not accept a "2nd" work of grace that "changes my being". I have the promised Holy Spirit. "Christ in me" and I am one with Jesus.

I have never experienced or witnessed such baptisms as written in the NT of the accounting of what took place in those days. Many signs were given in those days that aren't seen in our day and age. Yet the Spirit of Christ is still sent into the heart of believers. For if they didn't have that Spirit they wouldn't be one with Jesus and would still be in their sin. That doesn't mean we don't believe in the testimony about such baptisms.

You stated you were baptized in the HS.
Care to share your experience?

 

[JLB]

I do believe in a normative since, and by normative I have mentioned two exceptions above, and there are more exceptions, but to the rule, water baptism is required. If we look at the requirement as a burden or a line in the sand that separates us from heaven, then we've missed the point of water baptism and its proper place in scripture. Again, water baptism is a response to the Gospel. If it is done for any other reason, I believe the requirement turns into a work of man and holds little value with God.

So if I’m understanding you correctly, could we agree that water baptism is an action of faith, in response to the Gospel?


IOW, if we go swimming in a river or lake, it carries no action or response to the Gospel, we are just going under the water for enjoyment. However if their is a heart response of faith in action, to the Gospel, then we are demonstrating to God that we believe and desire to turn to Him and embrace His call to repent.


We want the life God has for us, and we acknowledge we need to turn away from this world and it’s ruler.


Can we agree on this or something similar as to our motive for water baptism?




JLB

 

[JLB]

I have never spoke in other languages as enabled by the spirit of God. I have the Spirit of Christ in me. So if Paul asked me, "did you receive the Spirit ?", my answer would be yes. How God gives the Spirit is up to Him. The Spirit was the promise not the method.
Cornelius is another example of one who didn't previously have the spirit and received the gift via the Spirit coming on Him and those with him while Peter was speaking to them about Jesus.

I do not accept a "2nd" work of grace that "changes my being". I have the promised Holy Spirit. "Christ in me" and I am one with Jesus.

I have never experienced or witnessed such baptisms as written in the NT of the accounting of what took place in those days. Many signs were given in those days that aren't seen in our day and age. Yet the Spirit of Christ is still sent into the heart of believers. For if they didn't have that Spirit they wouldn't be one with Jesus and would still be in their sin. That doesn't mean we don't believe in the testimony about such baptisms.

You stated you were baptized in the HS.
Care to share your experience?

I believe you have been born again and have Christ in you.


But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
1 Corinthians 6:17

• Have you considered that the Holy Spirit baptizing you into Christ whereby you are joined to Him and one spirit with Him, in which you are a part of the body of Christ along with other believers is because the Holy Spirit is the Baptizer?

For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13


In this position the Holy Spirit is the Baptizer.




JLB