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Parable/Story of the Rich Man and Lazarus.

GodIsMySavior

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This, what I like to call a "Covenantle" parable/story, is perhaps my largest study of the NT of the Bible, and I would like to share it with others as I go thru it verse by verse, and I welcome comments on it.

I happen to like the commentary on this site, as he delves into the Greek a lot [as do other commentators]

A little background on where the parable was spoken and to whom it was spoken.
Note the reaction by the Judean religious Rulers to this parable:

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man has been the foundation for many of the erroneous beliefs about "hell" within traditional Christianity. Some have viewed it not as a parable, but as a true story Yeshua told to give details about the punishment of sinners in hell. Yet a thorough, unbiased examination of this story will show that the generally accepted interpretations of this passage of Scripture are erroneous and misleading. In this article, we will go through the parable verse by verse to determine what the Messiah was truly teaching.
Those who insist that this is not a parable but a true, literal story Yeshua told to describe the condition of the lost in hell must overlook several facts to arrive at that conclusion. First, Yeshua the Messiah never accuses the rich man of any sin. He is simply portrayed as a wealthy man who lived the good life. Furthermore, Lazarus is never proclaimed to be a righteous man. He is just one who had the misfortune to be poor and unable to care for himself. If this story is literal, then the logical implication is that all the rich are destined to burn in hell, while all the homeless and destitute will be saved. Does anyone believe this to be the case?.....

The self-righteous Pharisees and Scribes, acknowledged by Yeshua as the legitimate religious teachers of the Jews (Matt. 23:1-3), should have been the ones telling these people of God's love for them. They should have been the ones teaching these sinners, exhorting them to return to God and receive His love and forgiveness.
However, because of their faith in their own righteousness and their contempt for these tax collectors and sinners who didn't measure up to their standards, the Pharisees and scribes excluded them and considered them accursed (John 7:49).

Afterward, speaking primarily to his disciples but with the Pharisees (and probably the crowd) still listening in, Yeshua related the parable of the unjust steward (Luke 16:1-13).

The Pharisees, who were "lovers of money" (Luke 16:14), realized that the Messiah was alluding to them with this parable and took offense. They scoffed at Yeshua.

The final part of his response to the derision of the Pharisees and scribes was the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.

===================================
Luke 16 YLT
14 And also the Pharisees, being lovers of money, were hearing all these things, and were deriding him, 15 and he said to them, ‘Ye are those declaring yourselves righteous before men, but God doth know your hearts; because that which among men is high, [is] abomination before God; 16 the law and the prophets [are] till John; since then the reign of God is proclaimed good news, and every one doth press into it; 17 and it is easier to the heaven and the earth to pass away, than of the law one tittle to fall.18 ‘Every one who is sending away his wife, and marrying another, doth commit adultery; and every one who is marrying her sent away from a husband doth commit adultery.

19 Yet a certain Man was rich and was clothed purple and fine-linen, making-merry down to a-day shiningly
20 Yet a certain Poor-one was to name Lazarus, who had been cast toward the his gate, having sores-abiding
21 And yearning to be satisfied from the scraps, those falling from the table of the Rich-one, but also the dogs coming licked-upon the sores of him.
22 Became yet to be dying the Poor-one and to be carried away him by the Messengers into the bosom of Abraham.
Yet died also the Rich-one and was entombed.
23 And in the Hades lifting up his eyes existing in torments, he is seeing the Abraham from afar and Lazarus in the bosom of him.
24 And he sounding said "Father Abraham! be you merciful to-me! and send Lazarus! that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water and should be cooling down the tongue of me, that I am being anguished in this flame".
25 Said yet Abraham "Child! be thou being reminded! that thou got the goods of the in the life of thee and Lazarus in like manner the evils,
yet now here he is being comforted and thou art being pained.
26 And upon all of these between us and ye a chasm great hath been established so that those willing to cross-over hence toward ye no may be able, neither thence toward us may be ferrying"
27 Saying yet "I am asking thee then father!, that thou should be sending him into the house of my father,
28 for I am having five brothers which he may be testifying to them that no also they may be coming into the place this of the torment".
29 Abraham is saying to him "they are having Moses and the Prophets let them hear them!".
30 The yet he said: "nay father Abraham!
but if ever any from dead-ones may be going forth toward them they shall be repenting/reforming.
31 Saying yet to him "if Moses and the Prophets not they are hearing, neither if ever anyone out of dead-ones may be rising, they shall be being persuaded"
.
==============================================
In the next few posts, I will be going thru vs 19 and see how much this parable correlates to the covenantle book of Revelation. Please feel free to comment on this and hope it edifies fellow Christians here as it has edified me.

Luke 16:19 Yet a certain man was rich and was clothed in purple and fine-linen, making-merry down to a-day shiningly.
==========================
An interesting utube vid on it:

The Parable of the Rich man and Lazarus has long been viewed as a proof text for the doctrine of eternal punishment in hell fire. This parable does depict very harsh punishment. However when you understand who Lazarus is in the parable, and what the crime of the rich man was then you understand he is receiving the equal measure for their crimes, but not an infinite measure.

 

GodIsMySavior

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Preston Eby has been a favorite commentator of mine for over a decade and I have read only a fraction of his commentaries, but was particularly blessed when I read his commentary on the Rich Man and Lazarus.
Thoughts?

Abraham’s Bosom
*snip*

......Usually, when the story of the rich man and Lazarus is considered, its setting is ignored. At the time the story was told Jesus had just eaten dinner with a Pharisee, at which time He not only healed a man with dropsy, but gave some pointed advice about how to give a dinner party. When He left the house, great throngs followed Him.
Many of this great company were publicans and sinners who drew near to hear His teaching, and mingled with them were a great number of the scribes and Pharisees. The scribes and Pharisees complained openly and bitterly against Jesus, condemning Him because He received sinners into His company and ate with them.

Against this background of biting criticism Jesus stood and gave the teachings found in chapters fifteen and sixteen of Luke. There are five stories which follow consecutively. It is well known, of course, that chapters and verses were not in the original scriptures. We are at liberty to change them when they do not synchronize with other scripture. Any arrangement of chapter and verse division that clarifies or harmonizes other scripture, is more authoritative than that division that beclouds other statements of the Bible.

At the beginning of Jesus’ discourse in chapter fifteen of Luke the statement is made that “He spoke this parable unto them, saying,” (Lk. 15:3). The Greek is very definite in making the word for parable clearly a singular noun. It is “the parable this..” This statement is followed by five separate stories, the first of which is the story of the lost sheep, and the last is the story of the rich man and Lazarus.
You see, the teaching in chapter sixteen is but the continuation of the discourse in chapter fifteen, without interruption. Now, which of the five stories He gave them in this sermon was called a parable? The only one of the five which is prefaced by the claim, “And He spoke this parable unto them,” was the story about the lost sheep. Was the lost sheep the only one that could be called a parable?
And yet, any preacher or believer that I know will answer that the story of the lost coin, as well as the prodigal son, were also parables. Then why was the singular used - “this parable”?
It should be clear to any thinking mind that all these stories were ONE PARABLE, like the facets of a diamond, as they turn each scintillates with new brilliance. Each was illustrating a view point of one great truth, and together they compose a whole. And this parabolic discourse of Jesus is continued into chapter sixteen of Luke, including the story of the rich man and Lazarus.

The truth is that all five stories are each a fractional part of the complete parable, and when we read, “He spoke this parable unto them,” this embraces the entire collection of symbol-pictures which in their completeness constituted the parable which He spoke.
It is a careless assumption and an unfounded assertion to argue that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable! .................

And now, my friend, you know the real TRUTH about the parable of the rich man and Lazarus!

~ J. Preston Eby
 

Who Me

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What we always need to note in this parable is
We need to sort out our relationship with God in this life.
That failure to do so leads to separation from God.
That faith begins with the Bible, not supernatural miracles etc.
That the supernatural or the spiritual is very real.
 

for_his_glory

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What proof that it is just a parable and not actual events?
These parables of Jesus began in Luke 10:25 when a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? From that point moving forward Jesus gave 15 parables, meaning illustrations, beginning in Luke chapter 10-16 that all pertain to what we are to do in order to receive eternal life.
 

GodIsMySavior

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The words "purple and fine linen" are used in the OT, and these generally were worn by the Levite Priests. This commentator indentifies the Rich Man as "Judah, the house of Judah" which contained the Levitical Priesthood, after God divorced the the house of Israel

Luke 16:19 Yet a certain Man was rich and was clothed purple and fine-linen making-merry down to a-day shiningly
=========================
Some commentaries....Biblehub is a favorite Bible study site of mine.


I believe this is a very good commentary and agrees with much of my view of the story:

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

We begin by scrutinizing the description Yeshua gives us of the rich man. First, he tells us that this man was clothed in purple and fine linen.

This type of clothing would not have been out of the ordinary for one of considerable wealth during this time period. However, this attire also has symbolic meaning. The Eerdmans Bible Dictionary says: "The wearing of purple was associated particularly with royalty . . ." (p. 863, "Purple"). In addition, the New Bible Dictionary tells us:
"The use of linen in OT times was prescribed for priests (Ex. 28:39). The coat, turban and girdle must be of fine linen." (p. 702, "Linen").

The clothing of the rich man identifies him symbolically with the people of Israel, chosen by God to be His special people. They were called to be a witness to the nations surrounding them, confirming the blessings available to those who would obey God and keep His laws.
Unfortunately, they frequently did not live up to the high calling given to them by God. Eventually He sent them into captivity for their refusal to honor their part of the covenant ratified at Mount Sinai.
At the time of Yeshua, only the House of Judah continued to have a covenant relationship with God. The rich man in this parable represents the religious Jews of Yeshua's day, exemplified by their teachers, the Pharisees and scribes.
===================
occurs 28 times in 9 verses in the YLT

used together in just 3 verses in the NT, Luk16:19 and 2 verses in Revelation
[which some Bible theologians and scholars view as either Herod's Temple/Jerusalem 70ad or future Jerusalem.]
[But that is another topic]

Revelation 18:
7 ‘As much as She glorifies Herself and indulges so much, be giving to Her torment and sorrow. That in Her heart She is saying: 'I am sitting a Queen, and a Widow not I am being, and sorrow not no I shall seeing.'
12 Cargo of gold and silver, and precious stone and pearl and fine linen and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyne wood, and every vessel of ivory, and every vessel of most precious wood and brass and iron and marble
16 and saying, Woe! woe! the great City, that was having been arrayed with fine linen and purple, and scarlet, and have been gilded in gold and precious stone and pearls, That to one hour was desolated the so much riches.
==========================
 

for_his_glory

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Strong's Exhaustive Concordance: Hell
Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit
Greek # 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell

The English word hell, back in 1611, meant about the same as Hades, that being covered or unseen as in grave/pit. We do not see those in the grave as they are unseen to the eye as they are covered with dirt, or some placed in a tomb. The word hell is derived from the Saxon helan, to cover, and signifying merely the covered, or invisible place. The habitation of those who have gone from the visible terrestrial region to the world of spirits.

Abraham's bosom just refers to a place of comfort where the righteous dead wait in their grave until judgement day when at that time they will spend eternal life with the Father, John 5:28, 29. Jesus was raised from the dead, but still many were not persuaded to accept Him as Lord and Savior as they refused the teachings of the Apostles, even today unto the end of days.

BTW, let's not derail this thread by making it all about what hell is or is not.
 

GodIsMySavior

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What proof that it is just a parable and not actual events?
These parables of Jesus began in Luke 10:25 when a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? From that point moving forward Jesus gave 15 parables, meaning illustrations, beginning in Luke chapter 10-16 that all pertain to what we are to do in order to receive eternal life.
Good post.
I believe why most would think this is a true story instead of parable is the fact that 3 famous people, Abraham, Moses and Lazarus are mentioned.

The Rich man is never identified, but this commentator gives a very plausible view of him, IMHO

Again, we have to go back to the verses before this story to see the audience Jesus is telling the to, which included the corrupt murderous Jewish rulers.


LUKE 16:27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'

Yielding himself to his destiny, the rich man asks one more thing of his forefather Abraham. He pleads with him to send someone to warn his brothers, so that they may escape "this place of torment" (basanou), the testing and punishment that he was undergoing.

The fact that the rich man has five brothers is a vital clue to his true symbolic identity. Judah, the progenitor of the Jews, was the son of Jacob through Leah (Gen. 29:35). He had five full-blooded brothers: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, and Zebulun (Gen. 35:23).

While the significance of this seemingly pointless detail has been neglected by scholars throughout the centuries, you can be certain that it did not escape the notice of the Pharisees and scribes to which Yeshua was speaking. They thoroughly knew their history and were extremely proud of their heritage. Yeshua wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who he was referring to with this parable.
This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the House of Judah, the Jews!
 

GodIsMySavior

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This story appears to be Covenantle between the OC[Abraham and Moses] and NC [Jesus]
The song of Moses is actually sung in Revelation 15:3 from [Exodus 15:1]

Another word I would like to look at is "merry".

Luk 16:19
'And -- a certain man was rich, and was clothed in purple and fine linen, making merry<2165> sumptuously<2988> every day

G2165 is used only in Luke of the Gospels, including 3 verses of Revelation, again appearing to have some relation to Revelation and perhaps Jerusalem [since the Jewish rulers ruled from that City and are the one Jesus berated the most].

Strong's Number G2165 occurs 14 times in 14 verses
2165. from 2095 and 5424; to put (middle voice or passively, be) in a good frame of mind, i.e. rejoice:--fare, make glad, be (make) merry, rejoice.

1st time used:
YLT
Luk 12:19 and I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast many good things laid up for many years, be resting, eat, drink, be merry.<2165>

Last 3 times in Revelation

Rev 11:10
and those dwelling upon the land shall rejoice over them, and shall make merry<2165> and gifts they shall send to one another, because these -- the two prophets -- did torment those dwelling upon the land.'
Rev 12:12 because of this be merry<2165>, ye heavens, and those in them who do tabernacle; wo to those inhabiting the land and the sea, because the Devil did go down unto you, having great wrath, having known that he hath little time.'
Rev 18:20 'Be merry<2165> over her, O heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets, because God did judge your judgment of her!'

The rich man in this parable represents the religious Jews of Yeshua's day, exemplified by their teachers, the Pharisees and scribes.

Verse 19 also tells us that the rich man "fared sumptuously every day." Figuratively, this represents the magnificent spiritual feast available only to the Jews, who were the sole remaining part of God's called people, Israel. In the 1st century CE, they were the only people on earth who had the true religion. Indeed, Paul recounts the glorious station of the House of Judah in Romans 9:.......

The Jews were truly rich, feasting on God's spiritual blessings. Yet these very gifts caused them to stumble because they prompted them to self-righteousness. They gloried in the gifts, without glorifying the Eternal God who gave them. Instead of being a "royal priesthood" that was a blessing to all nations, they instead loathed and despised the surrounding peoples. Certainly, as Paul wrote, "their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them" (Rom. 11:9)
===================
 

GodIsMySavior

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Strong's Exhaustive Concordance: Hell
Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit
Greek # 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell

The English word hell, back in 1611, meant about the same as Hades, that being covered or unseen as in grave/pit. We do not see those in the grave as they are unseen to the eye as they are covered with dirt, or some placed in a tomb. The word hell is derived from the Saxon helan, to cover, and signifying merely the covered, or invisible place. The habitation of those who have gone from the visible terrestrial region to the world of spirits.

Abraham's bosom just refers to a place of comfort where the righteous dead wait in their grave until judgement day when at that time they will spend eternal life with the Father, John 5:28, 29. Jesus was raised from the dead, but still many were not persuaded to accept Him as Lord and Savior as they refused the teachings of the Apostles, even today unto the end of days.

BTW, let's not derail this thread by making it all about what hell is or is not.
Thks for posting that.
 

for_his_glory

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I believe why most would think this is a true story instead of parable is the fact that 3 famous people, Abraham, Moses and Lazarus are mentioned.
They are mentioned, but yet all three are dead in their graves also waiting for the resurrection on the last day when Christ returns. The only thing that goes back to God when this body dies is the very breath/spirit God breathed in us making us a living soul, Genesis 2:7; Ecclesiastes 12:7. As far as Lazarus it is not known where or when he died the second time.

Abraham - Genesis 49: 30 In the cave that is in the field of Machpelah, which is before Mamre, in the land of Canaan, which Abraham bought with the field of Ephron the Hittite for a possession of a burying place. 31 There they buried Abraham and Sarah his wife; there they buried Isaac and Rebekah his wife; and there I buried Leah.

Moses - Deuteronomy 34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. 6 and he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Beth-peor: but no man knoweth of his sepulcher unto this day.
 

JLB

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Preston Eby has been a favorite commentator of mine for over a decade and I have read only a fraction of his commentaries, but was particularly blessed when I read his commentary on the Rich Man and Lazarus.
Thoughts?

Abraham’s Bosom
*snip*

......Usually, when the story of the rich man and Lazarus is considered, its setting is ignored. At the time the story was told Jesus had just eaten dinner with a Pharisee, at which time He not only healed a man with dropsy, but gave some pointed advice about how to give a dinner party. When He left the house, great throngs followed Him.
Many of this great company were publicans and sinners who drew near to hear His teaching, and mingled with them were a great number of the scribes and Pharisees. The scribes and Pharisees complained openly and bitterly against Jesus, condemning Him because He received sinners into His company and ate with them.

Against this background of biting criticism Jesus stood and gave the teachings found in chapters fifteen and sixteen of Luke. There are five stories which follow consecutively. It is well known, of course, that chapters and verses were not in the original scriptures. We are at liberty to change them when they do not synchronize with other scripture. Any arrangement of chapter and verse division that clarifies or harmonizes other scripture, is more authoritative than that division that beclouds other statements of the Bible.

At the beginning of Jesus’ discourse in chapter fifteen of Luke the statement is made that “He spoke this parable unto them, saying,” (Lk. 15:3). The Greek is very definite in making the word for parable clearly a singular noun. It is “the parable this..” This statement is followed by five separate stories, the first of which is the story of the lost sheep, and the last is the story of the rich man and Lazarus.
You see, the teaching in chapter sixteen is but the continuation of the discourse in chapter fifteen, without interruption. Now, which of the five stories He gave them in this sermon was called a parable? The only one of the five which is prefaced by the claim, “And He spoke this parable unto them,” was the story about the lost sheep. Was the lost sheep the only one that could be called a parable?
And yet, any preacher or believer that I know will answer that the story of the lost coin, as well as the prodigal son, were also parables. Then why was the singular used - “this parable”?
It should be clear to any thinking mind that all these stories were ONE PARABLE, like the facets of a diamond, as they turn each scintillates with new brilliance. Each was illustrating a view point of one great truth, and together they compose a whole. And this parabolic discourse of Jesus is continued into chapter sixteen of Luke, including the story of the rich man and Lazarus.

The truth is that all five stories are each a fractional part of the complete parable, and when we read, “He spoke this parable unto them,” this embraces the entire collection of symbol-pictures which in their completeness constituted the parable which He spoke.
It is a careless assumption and an unfounded assertion to argue that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable! .................

And now, my friend, you know the real TRUTH about the parable of the rich man and Lazarus!

~ J. Preston Eby
The rich man and Lazarus was about actual people and taught us about the reality of eternal life or not, summing up the parables that’s began in Chapter ten.


If the parable of the lost was indeed a parable, then the rich man and Lazarus was the reality the parables pointed to.



JLB
 
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GodIsMySavior

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Luk 16:19 'And -- a certain man was rich, and was clothed in purple and fine linen, making merry<2165> sumptuously<2988> every day
G2165 is used only in Luke of the Gospels, including 3 verses of Revelation, again appearing to have some relation to Revelation and perhaps Jerusalem [since the Jewish rulers ruled from that City and are the one Jesus berated the most].
sumptuously<2988>

G2988 used just in this one verse.
I looked at the derivatives of it and found something interesting.

A form of it is used in Revelation concerning Jerusalem.

19 Yet a certain Man was rich and was clothed inpurple and fine-linen making-merry<2165> daily shiningly/sumptuously<2988>

2988. lampros adverb from 2986; brilliantly, i.e. figuratively, luxuriously:--sumptuously.
2989. lampo a primary verb;
to beam, i.e. radiate brilliancy (literally or figuratively):--give light, shine.
2987. lamprotes from 2986; brilliancy:--brightness.
2986. lampros from the same as 2985;
radiant; by analogy, limpid; figuratively, magnificent or sumptuous (in appearance):--bright, clear, gay, goodly, gorgeous, white
2985. lampas from 2989;
a "lamp" or flambeau:--lamp, light, torch.

YLT
Rev 15:6 and come forth did the seven Messengers having the seven plagues, out of the Sanctuary<3485>, clothed in linen, pure and shining<2986>, and girded round the breasts with golden girdles:

Revelation 18:14
‘And the fruition<3703> of Thee of the yearning of Thy soul passed away<565> Thee,
and all the dainty and the splendid/shiningly<2986> things perished<622> from Thee, and no longer Thou shall be finding them.

Rev 22:16 'I, Jesus did send my messenger to testify to you these things concerning the assemblies; I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright<2986> and morning star!
=====================
A few commentaries:


Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
and fared sumptuously every day] Literally, “making merry (Luke 12:19) every day, splendidly.” Luther, lebte herrlich und in Freuden. It indicates a life of banquets. The description generally might well apply to Herod Antipas, vii. 25; Mark 6:14; Mark 6:21.

Bengel's Gnomen
Luke 16:19. Ἄνθρωπος, a man) This parable (for it is a parable, though a true narrative may lie underneath it) not only condemns the abuse of external goods by covetousness and pride, but also condemns a proud contempt of the law and the prophets: comp. Luke 16:14 et seqq. The rich man is the exact representative of the Pharisees: Lazarus is an example of the poor in spirit: The state of both respectively in this life and in that which is to come is shown.—πορφύραν καὶ βύσσον, purple and fine linen) forming a beautifully blending of colours.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible

Fared sumptuously - Feasted or lived in a splendid manner.

Every day - Not merely occasionally, but constantly. This was a mark of great wealth, and, in the view of the world, evidence of great happiness. It is worthy of remark that Jesus did not charge on him any crime. He did not say that he had acquired this property by dishonesty, or even that he was unkind or uncharitable; but simply that he "was a rich man," and that his riches did not secure him from death and perdition.
 

for_his_glory

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The description of the clothing of the High Priest is found in Exodus 28 and 38:1-31. In the NT scribes were of the same sect of the Pharisees and would also be arrayed in purple and fine linen with miters on their heads. There were also a subordinate class of scribes, most of whom were Levites

The rich man in this parable is symbolic of the Mosaic experts (Lawyers) in which Jesus characterizes and condemns them and the Pharisees in Matthew 23:1-36 and Luke 11:37-54.

Luke 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

All these parables in Matthew, Mark and Luke are all about what we have to do to inherit eternal life. Lazarus in this parable represents those in whom we are to reach out to as in what Jesus said in Matthew 25:31-46 about the sheep and the goats as some will inherit eternal life while others will go away into ever lasting punishment
 

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What proof that it is just a parable and not actual events?
I would suggest the that they were dead indicates it is a parable. Dead people can't talk or communicate. Since they are talking in this story it would indicate that it is not an actual account of a real event.
 

Butch5

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The parable is actually a judgment against Israel. The Rich Man represents the priesthood. Notice just prior to this parable Jesus said the Law and the Prophets were until John.

The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. (Lk. 16:16 KJV)

Here Jesus is announcing an end of the Law. In the Parable, the Rich Man represents the priesthood that died. The Priests didn't literally die, but the priesthood was brought to an end. Thus, the Rich Man, priesthood is pictured as dead but alive in the grave.
 

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I would suggest the that they were dead indicates it is a parable. Dead people can't talk or communicate. Since they are talking in this story it would indicate that it is not an actual account of a real event.
So what makes you think that the dead can not communicate? They can not talk to the living. But they were both dead (in the flesh) so how would you know if they could or couldn't communicate?

They can't talk? So Jesus didn't go and preach to the prisoners in Abraham's Bosom? Whether preaching the Gospel or declaring victory is actually moot because both are interactive.

Your assertion is pretty thin Brother.
 

Butch5

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Can you prove that the dead can communicate? I've seen dead people. I've never once seen one communicate. I've been to cemeteries, never once heard anyone in the grave speaking. We can observe dead people. They dont speak. This can be proven by observation. What proof can you offer that the dead can speak? Can you show where dead people communicate. If the only evidence you have comes from the Scriptures, you have to prove that your understanding of those Scriptures is correct and the only possible understanding of them. We know that the Scriptures contain parables, allegories, metaphors, hyperbole, and other figures of speech. So, please present your evidence. The Bible is pretty clear that the dead are in fact dead.
 

Edward

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Can you prove that the dead can communicate? I've seen dead people. I've never once seen one communicate. I've been to cemeteries, never once heard anyone in the grave speaking. We can observe dead people. They dont speak. This can be proven by observation. What proof can you offer that the dead can speak? Can you show where dead people communicate. If the only evidence you have comes from the Scriptures, you have to prove that your understanding of those Scriptures is correct and the only possible understanding of them. We know that the Scriptures contain parables, allegories, metaphors, hyperbole, and other figures of speech. So, please present your evidence. The Bible is pretty clear that the dead are in fact dead.
You want a scripture? Ok.

Matthew 22:31-32

31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.../

Are you born again? A follower of Christ? So if your flesh body died, would you be dead? No you are still alive. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

There is a common mistake that many people who are young in Christ fail to see or remember. And that is...you are not your flesh body. Your body is akin to a temporary house for your spirit to dwell in.

We (you) were created in the very image and likeness of God. Well God is a Spirit, Brother. So I am a spirit. I have a soul. I live in a flesh body. To die (in the flesh) is to gain, not lose.

We live here on earth in our flesh bodys. We learn about God, come to Him, and are redeemed and pass into life. This is in your spirit. All things are become new. But we wont feel any different after being born again. That is a function of the flesh, to feel. So what happens when a born again believer's flesh body dies? Do they die? No, they are spirit and have passed over to the Kingdom realm and are with their Lord.

So if your flesh body is still alive and the dead body's in the funeral or the cemetery have not spoke to you...no wonder they have not spoke to you. They can't. They are living in the spiritual realm and you in the natural.

Ya gotta stop thinking of yourself as a flesh man. It's just a body, a way to get around in this realm. I'm in an old beat up rusty Nova and I can't wait to upgrade!
 

Butch5

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You want a scripture? Ok.

Matthew 22:31-32

31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.../

Are you born again? A follower of Christ? So if your flesh body died, would you be dead? No you are still alive. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

There is a common mistake that many people who are young in Christ fail to see or remember. And that is...you are not your flesh body. Your body is akin to a temporary house for your spirit to dwell in.

We (you) were created in the very image and likeness of God. Well God is a Spirit, Brother. So I am a spirit. I have a soul. I live in a flesh body. To die (in the flesh) is to gain, not lose.

We live here on earth in our flesh bodys. We learn about God, come to Him, and are redeemed and pass into life. This is in your spirit. All things are become new. But we wont feel any different after being born again. That is a function of the flesh, to feel. So what happens when a born again believer's flesh body dies? Do they die? No, they are spirit and have passed over to the Kingdom realm and are with their Lord.

So if your flesh body is still alive and the dead body's in the funeral or the cemetery have not spoke to you...no wonder they have not spoke to you. They can't. They are living in the spiritual realm and you in the natural.

Ya gotta stop thinking of yourself as a flesh man. It's just a body, a way to get around in this realm. I'm in an old beat up rusty Nova and I can't wait to upgrade!
Thanks for telling me what you believe. However, where is the evidence that the dead can speak? You've given a couple of passages, but haven't shown how your understanding of them is the correct and only possible understanding.

You say you are a spirit. I disagree. Jesus said a spirit does not have flesh and bone. You have flesh and bone. This you can't be a spirit. When Adam sinned God said to him, for dust you are and to dust you shall return. So, according to God Adam was dust, not a spirit.

However, the Greeks of Jesus' day did believe they were spirits. They held to the theories of Plato. The Bible doesn't support Plato.

You're understanding of Paul's statement about being absent from the body and being present with the Lord, is mistaken. Paul said to the Corinthians, of those Christian's who had died, if there is no resurrection they had perished. Paul didn't tell the Corinthians that those dead believers were with the Lord. He said, if there is no resurrection they'd perished. That means they were gone. The only hope he holds out for them is the Resurrection
 
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