Parable/Story of the Rich Man and Lazarus.

[Edward]

Thanks for telling me what you believe. However, where is the evidence that the dead can speak? You've given a couple of passages, but haven't shown how your understanding of them is the correct and only possible understanding.

You say you are a spirit. I disagree. Jesus said a spirit does not have flesh and bone. You have flesh and bone. This you can't be a spirit. When Adam sinned God said to him, for dust you are and to dust you shall return. So, according to God Adam was dust, not a spirit.

However, the Greeks of Jesus' day did believe they were spirits. They held to the theories of Plato. The Bible doesn't support Plato.

You're understanding of Paul's statement about being absent from the body and being present with the Lord, is mistaken. Paul said to the Corinthians, of those Christian's who had died, if there is no resurrection they had perished. Paul didn't tell the Corinthians that those dead believers were with the Lord. He said, if there is no resurrection they'd perished. That means they were gone. The only hope he holds out for them is the Resurrection

You can believe anything that you want to. You don't even believe that you have a spirit? Well perhaps you can tell me where I misunderstood 1 Thessalonians 5:23?

23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.../

And also tell me why scripture says that God is the God of the living not the dead. What could that mean?

I've always thought these things are like Christianity 101. I guess not.

 

[Butch5]

You can believe anything that you want to. You don't even believe that you have a spirit? Well perhaps you can tell me where I misunderstood 1 Thessalonians 5:23?

23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.../

And also tell me why scripture says that God is the God of the living not the dead. What could that mean?

I've always thought these things are like Christianity 101. I guess not.

There's nothing here to indicate that the dead can speak. You said my assertion was thin. Well, I gave evidence, you've given none. If my assertion is thin what is yours?

I didn't say man doesn't have a spirit. I said he isn't a spirit. The word is actually breath. Man has a breath or spirit. It is the breath or spirit of life that God breathed into him. It is what gives life. Gen 2:7 shows that God breathed into Adam the breath or spirit of life.

Regarding the passage that God is the God of the living, the context will tell what Jesus meant. He begins that statement saying, 'as touching the resurrection'. His statement is about the Resurrection, not the current state of men. Also, "the living" is a class of people. It doesn't necessitate that they are alive at that moment. Jesus uses similar language calling a group of people who are very much alive, 'the dead'.

59 And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God. (Lk. 9:59-60 KJV)

These things may be Christianity 101, but they are not what the Bible teaches. We've had 2000 years of people adding their spin to the Christian faith and it's gotten quite far from what Jesus and the apostles taught. Jesus and the apostles didn't teach that the dead are alive, that people go to Heaven when they die, that man has an immortal soul, and on and on.

 

[GodIsMySavior]

20 Yet a certain Poor-one was to name Lazarus, who had been cast toward the gate of him, having sores-abiding

In contrast to the Rich Man, we now look at the beggar, Lazarus.

Lazarus is only mentioned in Luke [4 verses of story of Rich Man and Lazarus] and John [11 verses in chapts 11 and 12 ]
John 11:4 and John 12:9 mentions his death and being raised after the 3rd day [much like the 2 witnesses in Revelation].

Revelation 11:11 And after the three and half days, a breath of life out of the God entered in them and they stand upon their feet and great fear falls upon the ones observing them.

John 12:10 shows the corrupt murderous Chief Priests plotting to murder both him .

Genesis 1:1 (NKJV)

"lazarus" primary search results are listed below along with dictionary aides, FAQs, and Lexiconc.

www.blueletterbible.org

occurs 15 times in 15 verses
NKJV]

Luk 16:
20 “But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,
23 “And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
25 “But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.

Jhn 11:
1 Now a certain man was sick, Lazarus of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha.
2It was that Mary who anointed the Lord with fragrant oil and wiped His feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick.
5 Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus.
11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”
14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead.
43 Now when He had said these things, He cried with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth!”
Jhn 12:
1 Then, six days before the Passover, Jesus came to Bethany, where Lazarus was who had been dead,[fn] whom He had raised from the dead.
2 There they made Him a supper; and Martha served, but Lazarus was one of those who sat at the table with Him.
9 Now a great many of the Jews knew that He was there; and they came, not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might also see Lazarus, whom He had raised from the dead.
10 But the chief priests plotted to put Lazarus to death also,
17 Therefore the people, who were with Him when He called Lazarus out of his tomb and raised him from the dead, bore witness.

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

The first thing to note is that he is depicted as a beggar. This is an apt description of the Gentiles who "laid at the gate" of Judah. Paul describes the predicament of the Gentiles before they accepted the Messiah in his letter to the Ephesians:

EPHESIANS 2:12 Remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world

This Scripture is also a fitting representation of the position of the nations before the Messiah's sacrifice for the world's sins. They were certainly "excluded from the commonwealth of Israel," "strangers to the covenants of promise," and "without hope and without God in the world." The Gentiles were beggars, located outside Judah and longing to be fed spiritual crumbs from the table of the divinely blessed Jews.

Additionally, we are told that dogs came and consoled Lazarus in his misery, licking his sores.
The Jews considered the surrounding Gentiles to be unclean "dogs." Even Yeshua himself used this unflattering comparison when he conversed with the Greek Syrophoenician woman while in the region of Tyre (Mark 7:24-30).

Also important to the story is the meaning of the name Lazarus. This Greek name is a form of the Hebrew Eleazer, and it literally means "he whom God helps." The use of this particular name is very significant to the message of the parable, for the Gentiles would indeed become "those whom God helped" through the sacrifice of His son, Yeshua.
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Kindgdom Bible Studies Template Page

LAZARUS
Who is the poor neglected beggar full of sores, to whom the very dogs show more pity and kindness than the rich man? The rich man “fared sumptuously every day” while Lazarus was lying at his gate a mass of sores, loathsome and in want, and yet uncared for and unpitied by him who enjoyed so many blessings. Who is this poor, wretched, pathetic, despised man?

The Jews looked upon the heathen nations about them as barbarians and dogs. It seems quite clear therefore that in this parable Lazarus is the people lying at Judah’s gate who are recipients of none of the blessings so lavishly bestowed upon them. In the rich man we see the children of the Kingdom, who as such were clothed in purple and fine linen, rich and increased with goods, daily feasting on the finest of delicacies, contrasted with the heathen world, lost, full of sores, and lacking everything. Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate full of sores, which denotes his cast-out and spiritually deficient condition.

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https://www.quora.com/What-does-Lazarus-represent-in-the-Bible
Lazarus is an abridged form of the Hebrew name Eleazar, meaning "whom God helps" or "God has helped." There are two men named Lazarus who are mentioned in the New Testament;

1. A beggar described in a parable - Luke 16:20-25

2. The brother of Mary and Martha, raised from the dead - John 11:1-44.

The Greek name Λαζαροσ (Lazaros) is the Hellenized version of the Hebrew nameאלעזר, Eleazar, which in the Septuagint appears transliterated as Ελεαζαρ. The two best-known Eleazars of the Hebrew Bible are the son of Aaron, the arch-father of all priests, and the son of Abinadab, in whose house the Ark of the Covenant resided. Both these Eleazars had brothers whom God killed for their inappropriate handling of the Ark or the sanctuary it was deposited in.

It may very well be that the Lazarus(es) of the New Testament may also serve as a kind of marker for the discussion on the consequences of someone else's sin, and the inevitable death-because-of-sin that befalls us all. Irrespective of the things we do, we all sin and we all die. Some of us die earlier, some of us have hard lives. And some of us partake in the resurrection.

Lazarus represents the state of the believer. A believer is helped by God, now and hereafter. Whatever a believer may lose in this world, he will recover back in the world to come in many folds. The Lazarus in John's account, points to the future resurrection of the believer, while the Lazarus in Luke's account shows the final reward of the believer.
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In the parable in Luke chapter 16, Lazarus was compared to the rich man, to show that those who have suffered in this life will be rewarded in the next.

The name Lazarus occurs in only one other place in the Bible, which is in John’s Gospel. John chapter 11 tells us that Lazarus, brother of Mary and Martha was dead, but that Jesus brought him back to life. Whereas in Luke, Lazarus is not the brother of Mary and Martha, occurring only in a parable about death and resurrection, he is portrayed as an actual person in John, where he is resurrected by Jesus.

The author of John’s Gospel wanted a dramatic scene that would more fully justify the intention of the priests to arrest Jesus. His resurrection of Lazarus provided that trigger, as we can see when they met together and expressed fear that all the people would come to believe in Jesus:-

John 11:47–48: Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles. If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

These parables of Jesus began in Luke 10:25 when a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? From that point moving forward Jesus gave 15 parables, meaning illustrations, beginning in Luke chapter 10-16 that all pertain to what we are to do in order to receive eternal life.

There is no proof positive that it is a parable.6
A parable was of an earthly event that could happen which people could relate to in order to present a spiritual truth. What takes place in Luke 16:22ff took place, not on earth, but in the afterlife in Hadean realm. Why give names to people if they do not really exist? Did angels actually exist or exist only in parables? Since Jesus did not tell fables or myths what took place must be truth, that there is a punishment and a permanent fixed gulf that cannot be crossed.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I would suggest the that they were dead indicates it is a parable. Dead people can't talk or communicate. Since they are talking in this story it would indicate that it is not an actual account of a real event.

I do not know that the spirit's of the dead cannot communicate with each other. Would Jesus speak non-truths?

 

[Butch5]

I do not know that the spirit's of the dead cannot communicate with each other. Would Jesus speak non-truths?

Spirits of the dead? Man is not a spirit/breath. The only spirit/breath in man is the spirit/breath of life from God. We are told in Gen 2:7 that man was created from the dust. God then breathed into man the breath/spirit of life. That breath/spirit of life is God not man. We are told when a man dies that breath/spirit goes back to God and the man returns to the dust. There is no breath/spirit that is man. Thus there is nothing to communicate.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

While the significance of this seemingly pointless detail has been neglected by scholars throughout the centuries, you can be certain that it did not escape the notice of the Pharisees and scribes to which Yeshua was speaking. They thoroughly knew their history and were extremely proud of their heritage. Yeshua wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who he was referring to with this parable.
This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the House of Judah, the Jews!

John refuted the idea that being physical descendants of Abraham did not mean unconditional automatic salvation for the Jews, Matt 3:9. In Luke 16, having a Jew being in torment further proves salvation is not based upon physical descent (Romans 9:6-15).

But one point to discuss...WHO was Jesus speaking to in Luke 16.
Matt 13:34 says Jesus spoke to the multitudes in parables but in Acts 16:16-31, who was He speaking to? The Pharisees or His disciples?

Some points to consider:
--before speaking about Lazarus and the rich man Christ says in Lk 16:18 "Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery."

The parallel verses to Luke 16:18 are Mt 19:9 and Mark 10:11. In Matt 19:9 Jesus is not speaking in parables but regular language and speaking to His disciples Mt 19:10-11. In Mark 10:10-11 Jesus was in a house speaking to His disciples when He spoke the words of Luke 16:18.

So was Jesus speaking parables to Pharisees in Luke 16:18-31 or speaking in plain language to His disciples?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Spirits of the dead? Man is not a spirit/breath. The only spirit/breath in man is the spirit/breath of life from God. We are told in Gen 2:7 that man was created from the dust. God then breathed into man the breath/spirit of life. That breath/spirit of life is God not man. We are told when a man dies that breath/spirit goes back to God and the man returns to the dust. There is no breath/spirit that is man. Thus there is nothing to communicate.

From Luke 16:19ff we see there is no soul sleeping or annihilation since Jesus would not speak non-truths. So I still do not see why the dead cannot communicate with each other.

 

[Prycejosh1987]

First, Yeshua the Messiah never accuses the rich man of any sin. He is simply portrayed as a wealthy man who lived the good life. Furthermore, Lazarus is never proclaimed to be a righteous man. He is just one who had the misfortune to be poor and unable to care for himself. If this story is literal, then the logical implication is that all the rich are destined to burn in hell, while all the homeless and destitute will be saved. Does anyone believe this to be the case?.....

The rich man calls Abraham father, which implies he had faith but was very worldly and inconsiderate of God. Lazarus showed humility and i think Lazarus was more considerate of God and likely said that what was happening to him was Gods will. He had faith in the spiritual things but not the physical, the rich man was the other way around.

 

[Edward]

Lazarus and the rich man is not a parable. If you pay close attention you will see that in parables the people are not named. It would say something like...there was a certain rich man, or so forth. Lazarus was named, Abraham was named...no parable. Truth. That did happen.

 

[stovebolts]

There is no proof positive that it is a parable.6
A parable was of an earthly event that could happen which people could relate to in order to present a spiritual truth. What takes place in Luke 16:22ff took place, not on earth, but in the afterlife in Hadean realm. Why give names to people if they do not really exist? Did angels actually exist or exist only in parables? Since Jesus did not tell fables or myths what took place must be truth, that there is a punishment and a permanent fixed gulf that cannot be crossed.

A study of the Jewish Mashal shows that a Mashal aka Parable is a story with intent.
A Jewish Mashal can be a mix of real and not real people and events. Again, the focus is on the intent of the story, real or not.

 

[stovebolts]

Lazarus and the rich man is not a parable. If you pay close attention you will see that in parables the people are not named. It would say something like...there was a certain rich man, or so forth. Lazarus was named, Abraham was named...no parable. Truth. That did happen.

Jesus was a Jew speaking to Jews. What do the Jews consider the criteria of what a Mashal aka Parable is or isn't?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

A study of the Jewish Mashal shows that a Mashal aka Parable is a story with intent.
A Jewish Mashal can be a mix of real and not real people and events. Again, the focus is on the intent of the story, real or not.

What takes place in Lk 16:18ff is not like other parables. Jesus is not speaking of worldly, earth events men can relate to in order to reveal a spiritual truth but speaks of the afterlife. From the parallel verses of Lk 16:18 (Mt 19:9-11; Mk 10:9-11) Jesus is speaking to His disciples in a house in regular language not parables.

 

[stovebolts]

What takes place in Lk 16:18ff is not like other parables.

Just because it's not like the rest of the parables he told does not mean it's not a Jewish Mashal / Nimshel. To understand this requires an understanding of Jewish story telling. If you care, I can point you toward a handful of Jewish Mashal's / Nimshel's that use real names.

This story with intent is not a new story, but rather a rework of existing stories familiar to the Jews. Parallel stories can be found in the book of Enosh and Ezra.

It's not important wether the names are real or not. What is important is the story and it's primary intent.

 

[stovebolts]

Jesus is speaking to His disciples in a house in regular language not parables.

Verse 14 notes that the Pharisees heard his previous stories and took offence. I see this story as addressing them in open, not behind their back in a closed room

 

[Butch5]

From Luke 16:19ff we see there is no soul sleeping or annihilation since Jesus would not speak non-truths. So I still do not see why the dead cannot communicate with each other.

The parable is judgment against the leadership of Israel. It's not about what happens when people die. Like Jesus did so many times, He was speaking against the Scribes and Pharisees.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Verse 14 notes that the Pharisees heard his previous stories and took offence. I see this story as addressing them in open, not behind their back in a closed room

It could be v16 and afterwards took place later or at different locale after the Pharisees left. Again, Mark's account shows Jesus was in a house speaking (not in parables) to His disciples when He uttered the words of Lk 16:18.
I believe it to be actual people and events. Even if it is a parable it still contains truth. I have found in some cases those who say it MUST be a parable have other biases such as they do not believe in torment being eternal. Therefore they say it must be a parable for if it is a parable, they feel that gives them some wiggle room to get around what is said in those verses.

 

[stovebolts]

. I have found in some cases those who say it MUST be a parable have other biases such as they do not believe in torment being eternal. Therefore they say it must be a parable for if it is a parable, they feel that gives them some wiggle room to get around what is said in those verses.

I understand your concern. Please know that I too have encountered the same. Regardless, this is not the measure we apply to determine if this is a Mashal / Nimshel or not.
If you have noticed, I am trying not to use the Greek word which is rendered Parable. A Greek Parable is more in line with a fable where Mashal / Nimshel is strictly a story with intent which may include real, imaginary or both. Within a Nimshel, the details are not what's important, rather the intent to convey a truth.

So, what tools do we have to determine if this story is a Mashal / Nimshel or if it's literal.

First, we have textual exegesis. Does this story include any phrases or similar wording Luke uses in any other "stories with intent". The answer is found in the Mashal, The rich fool with the introductory words, anthropos tis, rendered most often as "a certain man" (Snodgrass, page 426).
This phrase is found in other Mashal's found in Luke; 10:30, 13:6, 14:16, 15:11, 16,1, 16:29 , 18:2 and 19:12.

 

[Edward]

Jesus was a Jew speaking to Jews. What do the Jews consider the criteria of what a Mashal aka Parable is or isn't?

I don't know. What is it?

 

[stovebolts]

I don't know. What is it?

A story with intent. Within Jewish writings these stories can include real or imaginary people and places. Earlier I referenced the book of Enoch and Ezra.