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Parable/Story of the Rich Man and Lazarus.

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A story with intent. Within Jewish writings these stories can include real or imaginary people and places. Earlier I referenced the book of Enoch and Ezra.
i havent read that on chabad in ages. they call those chassidic stories. they arent always about real people and but have a moral story that fits with the teachings of the rabbis and sages. also this isnt unique to judaism. there are stories that islam tells like that.

see nassurdin. it gave me the mindset where arabs and persians who are muslims have their world view , it was easy to get that i could see the mind set in how they acted daily.
 
There is no proof positive that it is a parable.6
A parable was of an earthly event that could happen which people could relate to in order to present a spiritual truth. What takes place in Luke 16:22ff took place, not on earth, but in the afterlife in Hadean realm. Why give names to people if they do not really exist? Did angels actually exist or exist only in parables? Since Jesus did not tell fables or myths what took place must be truth, that there is a punishment and a permanent fixed gulf that cannot be crossed.

I can only understand it as a symbolic illustration of a literal teaching of Christ of reality of what happens to the sheep and the goats in God's final judgement of everlasting punishment in the lake of fire and everlasting life with the Father. The permanent fixed gulf is the lake of fire and the New Jerusalem as no one can cross between them. The parables that Jesus taught stemmed from the question that was asked in Luke 10:25 where the lawyer was tempting Jesus on how to inherit eternal life.

The rich man has no name mentioned and Abraham is still at rest in his grave, Genesis 49:30, 31 like everyone that has ever died as no one has ever entered heaven other than Christ, John 3:13. It's only the breath God breathed in us that made us a living soul is what goes back to God when we die, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7.

Lazarus was the name of the beggar that was laid at the gate of the temple found in Acts 3:1-11. Lazarus is used as an example of those who will inherit eternal life as he gave praise to the Lord, and when he died he went to Abraham's bosom, which only means a place of rest as those who physically die that are the Lords own are at rest in their grave until the day of resurrection when Christ returns, John 5:28, 29; 6:40. Those who die like this rich man will lay in everlasting torment, being cast into the lake of fire.

In God's judgement there is everlasting punishment in the lake of fire for the goats and everlasting life with Christ in the New Jerusalem as there is a permanent fixed gulf between the lake of fire and the New Jerusalem as no one can cross over to either side. All these parables are about what it takes to have eternal life with the Father as we find symbolism and literal teachings in all of them.
 
personally i dont see luke 16 as a parable. note how Jesus said a certain rich man
the account of the story, and its meaning isnt based on that view alone. meaning that since the last book mentions gehenna being the final place, and that sheol(hades) death were cast into it. it doesnt mean that there is no hell. besides if you read that literally the concept of abraham's bosom in heaven and the others in firery torment and the mentioning one going back from the dead to tell the others of this means that it wasnt about the hell at all but Jesus himself and him going to the land of the lost in jewish views of the time and the dead there, notice its said but they have moses and the prophets.

most churches preach the gospel , not moses and the prophets.

while i can use the jewish way to reach people. most churches uses the gospels . i was lead not to read the gospel of john at first but to the torah as i am jewish. that is why im not top heavy. i would use the torah to reach the jews who were bar an bat mitzvahed. but i better be able to defend my view and be knowledgable on it. a jew will know his torah better then most christians. and in hebrew well.
 
I can only understand it as a symbolic illustration of a literal teaching of Christ of reality of what happens to the sheep and the goats in God's final judgement of everlasting punishment in the lake of fire and everlasting life with the Father. The permanent fixed gulf is the lake of fire and the New Jerusalem as no one can cross between them. The parables that Jesus taught stemmed from the question that was asked in Luke 10:25 where the lawyer was tempting Jesus on how to inherit eternal life.

The rich man has no name mentioned and Abraham is still at rest in his grave, Genesis 49:30, 31 like everyone that has ever died as no one has ever entered heaven other than Christ, John 3:13. It's only the breath God breathed in us that made us a living soul is what goes back to God when we die, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7.

Lazarus was the name of the beggar that was laid at the gate of the temple found in Acts 3:1-11. Lazarus is used as an example of those who will inherit eternal life as he gave praise to the Lord, and when he died he went to Abraham's bosom, which only means a place of rest as those who physically die that are the Lords own are at rest in their grave until the day of resurrection when Christ returns, John 5:28, 29; 6:40. Those who die like this rich man will lay in everlasting torment, being cast into the lake of fire.

In God's judgement there is everlasting punishment in the lake of fire for the goats and everlasting life with Christ in the New Jerusalem as there is a permanent fixed gulf between the lake of fire and the New Jerusalem as no one can cross over to either side. All these parables are about what it takes to have eternal life with the Father as we find symbolism and literal teachings in all of them.
I am still of the persuasion it is actual events. If it were a parable, then no reason to give a name (Lazarus) and speak of him having lived and died if he never did exist.
Even if it were a parable, a parable presents truth and facts meaning there would be a Hadean realm consisting of paradise and torment separated by a permanent, fixed gulf that cannot be crossed. It would be inhabited by the souls of those that have died. Abraham's physical body would be in the grave but his soul in paradise, Eccl 12:7 as was the soul of the thief on the cross next to Christ. People would also maintain their identity after death, maintain memory, can communicate and have sense of feeling. Neither place is the final eternal abode of souls for their will be a judgment and those in torment will move to an eternal abode hell - gehenna and those in paradise to eternal heaven.
 
I am still of the persuasion it is actual events. If it were a parable, then no reason to give a name (Lazarus) and speak of him having lived and died if he never did exist.
Even if it were a parable, a parable presents truth and facts meaning there would be a Hadean realm consisting of paradise and torment separated by a permanent, fixed gulf that cannot be crossed. It would be inhabited by the souls of those that have died. Abraham's physical body would be in the grave but his soul in paradise, Eccl 12:7 as was the soul of the thief on the cross next to Christ. People would also maintain their identity after death, maintain memory, can communicate and have sense of feeling. Neither place is the final eternal abode of souls for their will be a judgment and those in torment will move to an eternal abode hell - gehenna and those in paradise to eternal heaven.

Whether it's a parable or actual events, what is important is to understand what Jesus is teaching the Pharisees and the scribes/lawyers taught about how to inherit eternal life.

We have always been taught hell is a place where non-believers in God go to for eternity, but according to scripture this is not what hell is. Hell is described as the world of the dead, a place where the departed go that have died as being lowered in a grave/pit. There they are kept until the return of Christ to either stand in Gods Great White Throne judgment for those who are not found written in the Lambs Book of Life, Rev 20:11-15, or those who have died in Christ that will stand in his judgment to give an account for the things done here on earth, 2 Corinthians 5:10.

Hell is not the lake of fire as God gives us a description of the lake of fire as in fire and brimstone which can be used literal as in Sodom and Gomorrah burned to ashes and as a metaphor for torment, suffering, punishment or as Matthew 8:12 describes it as outer darkness. The New Testament description is a bottomless pit (abyss) (Revelation 20:3), a lake (Revelation 20:14), darkness (Matthew 25:30), death (Revelation 2:11), destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:9), everlasting torment (Revelation 20:10), a place of wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30), and a place of gradated punishment (Matthew 11:20-24; Luke 12:47-48; Revelation 20:12-13), everlasting fire Matthew 25:41, everlasting punishment, Matthew 25:46, lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance: Hell
Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit

Greek # 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell
Greek # 1067 Gehenna, the Valley of the sons of Hinnom South of Jerusalem, figuratively and literal of place of punishment.
Greek # 5020. Tartaroo tar-tar-o'-o from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment:--cast down to hell.

Hades is the English of the Greek word ᾅδης, just as Gehenna is the English for the Greek word γέεννα and Tartaros is the English word for the Greek word ταρταρόω

The English word hell, back in 1611, meant about the same as Hades, that being covered or unseen as in grave/pit. We do not see those in the grave as they are unseen to the eye as they are covered with dirt, or some placed in a tomb. The word hell is derived from the Saxon helan, to cover, and signifying merely the covered, or invisible place. The habitation of those who have gone from the visible terrestrial region to the world of spirits.

Jude 1:7 clearly states an example of eternal fire. This is the same Greek word that is used for everlasting fire and everlasting punishment as used in Matthew 18:8 and Matthew 25:41,46 (Notice: The place, as no real name is given, where the unsaved go is everlasting punishment, and not everlasting punishing. The punishment is eternal in its results, not in its duration. Unquenchable fire is a fire that cannot be quenched or put out until everything in its path is burned up.

Gehenna - Valley of Hinnom, Old Testament as Gai Ben-Hinnom, Tophet, in the Talmud as Gehinnam

The oldest historical reference to the valley is found in Joshua 15:8, 18:16 which describe tribal boundaries. The next chronological reference to the valley is at the time of King Ahaz of Judah who sacrificed his sons there according to 2 Chronicles 28:3. Isaiah does not mention Gehenna by name, but the burning place, Isaiah 30:33 in which the Assyrian army are to be destroyed, may be read Topheth, and the final verse of Isaiah which concerns the corpses of the same or a similar battle, Isaiah 66:24 , where their worm does not die. Also read Jeremiah 19:6-8 as a reference to the dead bodies that are thrown over the wall of Jerusalem into Gehenna/Tophet.

Flavius Josephus describes in his book of wars:
Now the seditious at first gave orders that the dead should be buried out of the public treasury, as not enduring the stench of their dead bodies. But afterwards, when they could not do that, they had them cast down from the walls into the valleys beneath. (War 5.12.3).

Matthew 5:29, 30; Mark 9:43-48 Jesus uses the prophetic symbolic of Gehenna as calling it hell or fires of hell meaning the grave/pit where many were burned to death there as the worm did not die there, meaning that there were always new maggots going through their life-cycles, feeding on the dead corpse. Also note Isaiah 66:24.
 
Whether it's a parable or actual events, what is important is to understand what Jesus is teaching the Pharisees and the scribes/lawyers taught about how to inherit eternal life.

I am not certain Lk 16:15ff is being spoken to the Pharisees. Again from parallel passages it appears jesus is speaking to His disciples in plain language Mt 19:9-11; Mk 10:9-11.


for_his_glory said:
We have always been taught hell is a place where non-believers in God go to for eternity, but according to scripture this is not what hell is. Hell is described as the world of the dead, a place where the departed go that have died as being lowered in a grave/pit. There they are kept until the return of Christ to either stand in Gods Great White Throne judgment for those who are not found written in the Lambs Book of Life, Rev 20:11-15, or those who have died in Christ that will stand in his judgment to give an account for the things done here on earth, 2 Corinthians 5:10.

Hell is not the lake of fire as God gives us a description of the lake of fire as in fire and brimstone which can be used literal as in Sodom and Gomorrah burned to ashes and as a metaphor for torment, suffering, punishment or as Matthew 8:12 describes it as outer darkness. The New Testament description is a bottomless pit (abyss) (Revelation 20:3), a lake (Revelation 20:14), darkness (Matthew 25:30), death (Revelation 2:11), destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:9), everlasting torment (Revelation 20:10), a place of wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30), and a place of gradated punishment (Matthew 11:20-24; Luke 12:47-48; Revelation 20:12-13), everlasting fire Matthew 25:41, everlasting punishment, Matthew 25:46, lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance: Hell
Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit

Greek # 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell
Greek # 1067 Gehenna, the Valley of the sons of Hinnom South of Jerusalem, figuratively and literal of place of punishment.
Greek # 5020. Tartaroo tar-tar-o'-o from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment:--cast down to hell.

Hades is the English of the Greek word ᾅδης, just as Gehenna is the English for the Greek word γέεννα and Tartaros is the English word for the Greek word ταρταρόω

The English word hell, back in 1611, meant about the same as Hades, that being covered or unseen as in grave/pit. We do not see those in the grave as they are unseen to the eye as they are covered with dirt, or some placed in a tomb. The word hell is derived from the Saxon helan, to cover, and signifying merely the covered, or invisible place. The habitation of those who have gone from the visible terrestrial region to the world of spirits.

Jude 1:7 clearly states an example of eternal fire. This is the same Greek word that is used for everlasting fire and everlasting punishment as used in Matthew 18:8 and Matthew 25:41,46 (Notice: The place, as no real name is given, where the unsaved go is everlasting punishment, and not everlasting punishing. The punishment is eternal in its results, not in its duration. Unquenchable fire is a fire that cannot be quenched or put out until everything in its path is burned up.

Gehenna - Valley of Hinnom, Old Testament as Gai Ben-Hinnom, Tophet, in the Talmud as Gehinnam

The oldest historical reference to the valley is found in Joshua 15:8, 18:16 which describe tribal boundaries. The next chronological reference to the valley is at the time of King Ahaz of Judah who sacrificed his sons there according to 2 Chronicles 28:3. Isaiah does not mention Gehenna by name, but the burning place, Isaiah 30:33 in which the Assyrian army are to be destroyed, may be read Topheth, and the final verse of Isaiah which concerns the corpses of the same or a similar battle, Isaiah 66:24 , where their worm does not die. Also read Jeremiah 19:6-8 as a reference to the dead bodies that are thrown over the wall of Jerusalem into Gehenna/Tophet.

Flavius Josephus describes in his book of wars:
Now the seditious at first gave orders that the dead should be buried out of the public treasury, as not enduring the stench of their dead bodies. But afterwards, when they could not do that, they had them cast down from the walls into the valleys beneath. (War 5.12.3).

Matthew 5:29, 30; Mark 9:43-48 Jesus uses the prophetic symbolic of Gehenna as calling it hell or fires of hell meaning the grave/pit where many were burned to death there as the worm did not die there, meaning that there were always new maggots going through their life-cycles, feeding on the dead corpse. Also note Isaiah 66:24.

I do not see torment in Hades and hell gehenna is the same place. Hades (both torment and paradise) are temporary places for the dead while waiting for judgement day. Jesus went to Hades (paradise) Acts 2:27 (hades) cf Psa 16:10 (sheol) but not hell (gehenna)....

NT hades = OT sheol per Acts 2:27 and Psa16:10......hades and sheol same place.

Nor did Jesus go the heaven when He died, Jn 20:17 but went to paradise in hades/sheol.
 
From Luke 16:19ff we see there is no soul sleeping or annihilation since Jesus would not speak non-truths. So I still do not see why the dead cannot communicate with each other.
Because they're dead. Have you ever seen a dead person communicate?
 
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This story about Lazarus and the Rich Man comes at the end of a series of parable that Jesus told at this feast. Nowhere in the discussion has there been any mention of an afterlife. To those who claim this is about an afterlife, how does that fit the context of these three chapters? In the parable just before this, the parable of the Unjust Steward, Jesus had just said that the stewardship was being taken away from the steward. Who was the steward? It was the Jews. They had been given God's word and were to keep it. However, just before this Jesus said they were those who justified themselves. He said, that the stewardship would be given to another. That was the apostles. God was going to send the priesthood into exile and give the kingdom over to the apostles. The story of Lazarus and the Rich Man is God's judgment against the priesthood or leadership of Israel. Take note of the details.

The parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man is also a judgment of the priesthood and their destruction. Who was Jesus talking to? The Pharisees. The Rich Man was a Jew. The priesthood was Jewish. The Rich Man had five brothers. Levi, the tribe of the priesthood, had five brothers. The Rich Man was dressed in purple and fine linen. The priesthood ruled over Israel as both king and priest and wore purple and fine linen. The Rich Man fared sumptuously. The priesthood fared sumptuously.

What about Lazarus? Lazarus is the Greek form of the Hebrew name Eleazar which means, God help. God helped Jesus. Lazarus had come to the Rich Man, a Jew. Jesus had come to the Jews. Lazarus was covered in sores. At the cross Jesus was covered in sores. The dogs licked Lazarus' sores. Lazarus was rejected by the Rich Man but accepted by the dogs. The Jews referred to the Gentiles as dogs. Jesus was rejected by the Jews but accepted by the Gentiles. Lazarus was carried away by angels. Jesus was carried away by angles. Lazarus was carried to his father Abraham. Jesus was carried to His father God. Lazarus was embraced by Abraham. Jesus was embraced by God. Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom. Is Abraham's bosom a place located down in the earth? There is nothing in Scripture to suggest any such thing. Abraham's bosom is mentioned elsewhere in Scripture though. Hagar was in Abraham's bosom, and she was alive, not dead.

And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the LORD judge between me and thee. (Gen. 16:5 KJV)

Hagar was in an intimate relationship with Abram. From this we see that being in Abraham's bosom means to be in a close relationship with Abraham. Lazarus was in the bosom of his father. Jesus was in the bosom of His father.

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (Jn. 1:18 KJV)

Remember, God had promised Abraham that him and his seed would inherit the land, that all nations would be blessed through him, that he would be the father or many nations, and that he would be the father of a great nation. Paul tells us that that Seed is Christ.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. (Gal. 3:16 KJV)

If Lazarus represents Jesus in this parable, then what we see is Abraham embracing his long promised Seed.

Another thing to note is that the Rich Man is being tormented in Hades. If this was an account of an after life, how is he suffering before the judgment?

Jesus spoke of Gehenna as the place where the wicked would be cast, not Hades. Hades is the grave. So, this parable is the only place where we see someone suffering in fire in Hades. Why is that? Nowhere else in Scripture do we find fire in Hades. Remember, Jesus is speaking to the Pharisees, they were familiar with their Scriptures. So, what would this fire in Hades bring to their minds? In the Song of Moses God told Israel what would happen when they turned from Him.

18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.
19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.1
20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.1
23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.
24 They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.1
25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.1
26 I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men: (Deut. 32:18-26 KJV)


Paul quotes verse 21 and applies it to his day so we know this is the time period for this judgment.
Notice verse 22. For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn to the Lowest Hades. This is the fire in Hades that the Rich Man is suffering, it's God anger. The Rich Man, the priesthood/leadership is suffering God anger. Notice verse 24, "They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction:". The city was destroyed.
Notice in verse 20 God said that He would hide His face from them. He has done that. He hasn't revealed Himself to them since that time. What about the great gulf that cannot be crossed to ease the suffering of the Rich Man? It's the time they are in exile. It is what Paul called the times of the Gentiles. When this time ends the priesthood will be restored for a brief period.
 
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Their spirit's can communicate. God is a Spirit but is able to communicate.

Right, Brother! And let us all remember that...God is not the author of confusion. It doesn't take 13 paragraphs to explain why a couple verses don't mean what it says.

And just because one has never been able to communicate with the dead, in no way proves that they can not communicate amongst themselves!
 
personally i dont see luke 16 as a parable. note how Jesus said a certain rich man
Hi Jerry,
If you look at all of the parables in Luke, each and every one of them contain the words, "a certain man" within the introduction. Nowhere other than a Parable are these words used in Luke's epistle.
 
havent read that on chabad in ages. they call those chassidic stories. they arent always about real people and but have a moral story that fits with the teachings of the rabbis and sages. also this isnt unique to judaism. there are stories that islam tells like that.
A requirement of being a rabbi is the ability to tell stories with a particular intent.

They do tell some good stories, and for emphasis, they utilize names of people that resonate with the story.

It's funny how much differently Jews think than gentiles. We look for data points where they see depth and richness of life through names and words that describe a beauty just under the surface of each letter.
 
Their spirit's can communicate. God is a Spirit but is able to communicate.
Their spirits are God. Spirit and breath are the same words in Greek and Hebrew. The only spirit or breath we see in man is the the breath of life. That is something of God. It returns to God when the man dies. There is nothing in the Scriptures that tells us there is a spirit or breath that is man.

People come to the Bible believing that man is a multi part being. Plato taught that man was a spirit living in a flesh body. He claimed that the body was the prison of the soul. This is why Paul says that the Gospel is foolishness to the Greeks. Their goal was to escape the body and ascend into the heavens. To them a resurrection would be trapping them once again in a prison. The Bible doesnt teach that man is a multi part being. It teaches that man is flesh which is animated by the breath or spirit of life from God. In Gen 2:7 we see Moses recorded how God created the man from the dust of the earth. When Adam sinned and God instituted the curse He said to Adam, 'for dust you are and to dust you shall return'. He didnt say Adam was a spirit, He said he was dust. 'For dust you are', that tells us exactly what man is, dust.

When we see this from Scripture it becomes abundantly clear that the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man simply cannot be an account of an actual event. Dead people return to the dust and God's breath of life returns to Him. The only way man can communicate is if he has God's breath of life in Him.
 
Their spirits are God. Spirit and breath are the same words in Greek and Hebrew. The only spirit or breath we see in man is the the breath of life. That is something of God. It returns to God when the man dies. There is nothing in the Scriptures that tells us there is a spirit or breath that is man.

People come to the Bible believing that man is a multi part being. Plato taught that man was a spirit living in a flesh body. He claimed that the body was the prison of the soul. This is why Paul says that the Gospel is foolishness to the Greeks. Their goal was to escape the body and ascend into the heavens. To them a resurrection would be trapping them once again in a prison. The Bible doesnt teach that man is a multi part being. It teaches that man is flesh which is animated by the breath or spirit of life from God. In Gen 2:7 we see Moses recorded how God created the man from the dust of the earth. When Adam sinned and God instituted the curse He said to Adam, 'for dust you are and to dust you shall return'. He didnt say Adam was a spirit, He said he was dust. 'For dust you are', that tells us exactly what man is, dust.

When we see this from Scripture it becomes abundantly clear that the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man simply cannot be an account of an actual event. Dead people return to the dust and God's breath of life returns to Him. The only way man can communicate is if he has God's breath of life in Him.
Jesus did not tell myths or fables, so there must be an afterlife as described in the text.

You post "The Bible doesnt teach that man is a multi part being."

The physical body returns to dust but the soul goes to the Hadean realm to wait for judgement day. Physical death as defined by the Bible is separation of the physical body from the spirit, James 2:26; Gen 35:18; Eccl 12:6-7;
 
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