Revelation 1: an alternate study.

[Stormcrow]

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, 2 who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. Revelation 1:1-2 (NASB)

Revelation 1:1-3 establishes several key things about everything that follows in the rest of the book.

First, this is a vision of Christ revealed in heaven. Up to this point, the only testimony we have of the risen, ascended, glorified Christ in heaven comes from Stephen as he is about to be stoned to death (Acts 7:55-56), and Paul's Damascus road conversion (Acts 9:3-7). The book of Revelation was written to a wider audience so that they could know Christ was in heaven and God was in utter and complete control of things. It begins as a message of hope for the church undergoing intense persecution of which John is a "fellow partaker."

Second, it establishes that the contents of the book come from no less than God Himself, communicated to John through an angel.

Third, it establishes that the events of the book are soon to occur as they relate to John and his audience, the seven churches in Asia. This is such an important point that it is repeated throughout the book. These prophesied events were not meant for us living 2,000 years later! This is further born out by this verse:

3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near. Revelation 1:3 (NASB)

If the book of Revelation is all about us, living in 21st century America, why would God Himself tell John to write something to people whom He knew would not live long enough to be blessed by reading and heeding the things written in it?

Put another way, it would be like God "blessing" someone in the 1st century with a treasure map for buried treasure on the moon and telling them they would have the treasure "soon"; God Himself knowing that the treasure could not be recovered for almost another 2,000 years!

Thus, the "futurist view" - in essence - makes God out either to be a cruel prankster or an insidious liar.

I will continue this in the next post...

 

[Stormcrow]

4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood— 6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. Revelation 1:4-6 (NASB)

Of the many weird and absurd interpretations that have been rendered about the book of Revelation, none are perhaps more bizarre than those which, somehow, see this book as being written to us, and attempt to allegorize these seven churches as seven church “types” that have existed throughout these intervening 2,000 years.

The text here is clear, plain, and simple: John is writing to seven very real churches undergoing very real persecution during the middle of the first century AD. In fact, just a few verses down, John mentions these churches in their respective cities by name and even identifies with their suffering! It is absolutely ridiculous to see these words for any more than what they are taken at face value.

7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen. 8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." Revelation 1:7-8 (NASB)

These two verses give us both a glimpse of the hope the recipients of this letter would have in Christ’s coming, and – as importantly –our first key connection with other prophetic passages in the New Testament! For instance, the same imagery of Revelation 1:7 is also used in all three of the synoptic gospels from the Olivet Discourse:

"And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30 (NASB)

"Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory. Mark 13:26 (NASB)

"Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory. Luke 21:27 (NASB)

However, these aren’t the only verses where Christ makes this claim of His “coming” with great power and glory!”

27 "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS. 28 "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Matthew 16:27-28 (NASB)

Jesus *said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN." Matthew 26:64 (NASB)

Now, the key thing to remember here is that if Christ’s “coming on the clouds” of Revelation 1:7 is the same as all these other statements He makes to both the disciples and the Sanhedrin, then every one of these verses is consistent with John’s writing that it would happen “soon” and Christ’s saying that it would happen for that generation!

The problem for those who hold to the futurist view is the fact that they must ignore the imminence of Christ’s “coming on the clouds” as a time sensitive event for those living at the time John wrote the words given to Him by God Himself!

And what were those words again?

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John…3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near. Revelation 1:1,3 (NASB)

Revelation 1:7 qualifies as one of “the things which must soon take place.”

More later.

 

[Stormcrow]

9 I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

Verse 9 is rich in meaning and substance, first for the fact that John (the disciple whom Jesus loved, John 13:23) is telling us that he is a "fellow partaker" in the tribulation under which they are suffering, himself being banished to the Isle of Patmos, just off the Turkish coast.

Many believe this banishment happened under the reign of Domitian Caesar, but this ignores the fact that the first persecution against the church happened under the auspices of the Jewish Sanhedrin and - only later - under Rome by Nero. (For more information you can read about these first "tribulations" here: http://tinyurl.com/6vlyw4l and here: http://tinyurl.com/78hzxfj.)

The mention of this tribulation is also significant because it is consistent with the tribulation Christ told His disciples they would suffer as recorded in the gospels:

{17} "But beware of men, for they will hand you over to the courts and scourge you in their synagogues; {18} and you will even be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles.

{21} "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. {22} "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved. {23} "But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes. Matthew 10:17-18, 21-23 (NASB)

{9} "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. {10} "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. {11} "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. {12} "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. {13} "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. Matthew 24:9-13 (NASB)

The prophetic message of Matthew 10 is virtually identical to the prophetic message of Matthew 24:9 and is this same "tribulation" the early church faced both at the hands of Jerusalem and Rome. This fact becomes even more significant in later chapters of Revelation, when John recounts the vision of the harlot (Jerusalem's priesthood) riding on the scarlet beast (Rome!)

Furthermore, John uses the Greek word for tribulation ("thlipsis") only 5 times in the book of Revelation, and in each and every case he is referring to this tribulation of the church. In fact, the last time he uses this word in the entire book appears in Revelation 7:14, as afterward, the focus of the book changes from the tribulation of the church to the outpouring of God's wrath upon Jerusalem, as has been discussed elsewhere (and will be discussed again.)

This change of focus from the tribulation of the church to the tribulation of Jerusalem is also seen in the gospels:

{15} "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), {16} then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. {17} "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. {18} "Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. {19} "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! {20} "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. {21} "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. {22} "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Matthew 24:15-22 (NASB)

{20} "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. {21} "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; {22} because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. {23} "Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; {24} and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Luke 21:20-24 (NASB)

In conclusion, it's this tribulation of the church at the hands of Jerusalem that is both a sign and a cause of the judgment that falls on Jerusalem ending in her destruction:

{34} "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, {35} so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. {36} "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

{37} "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. {38} "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! Matthew 23:34-38 (NASB)

Revelation - at its heart - is a tale of two women: the faithful, persecuted bride and the idolatrous harlot. The later chapters of the book deal with the judgment of the idolatrous harlot.

More in another post.

 

[Stormcrow]

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet, saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea." Revelation 1:10-11 (NASB)

​

As noted in an earlier post, each of these churches existed in a real city with real people facing real problems. Each has a unique history that we will explore later, but here's an example of the history of these churches that must be understood when dealing with the context of Revelation: a book which cannot be separated from its time and place in history...

"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:

~'Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. Revelation 3:14,17-18 (NASB)

Now for the meaning behind this passage, as revealed in history:

Laodicea was a great center of banking and finance (Rev. 3:14-21). It was one of the wealthiest cities of the ancient world! When Laodicea was destroyed by an earthquake in 60 A.D., they refused aid from the Roman empire and rebuilt the city from their own wealth. "One of the most famous cities of Asia, Laodicea, was in the same year overthrown by an earthquake and without any relief from us recovered itself by its own resources" (Tacitus, Annals, 14:27).

"The city was at the crossroads of north-south traffic between Sardis and Perga and east-west from the Euphrates to Ephesus. Laodicea quickly became a rich city, rich enough to be able to rebuild itself without outside help after the destructive earthquake of 60 A.D. In common with many of the Hellenistic cities there was a prosperous Jewish colony established there well before the Christian era. The city's reputation was for its money transactions and the good quality of raven-black wool grown in the area." (Blake and Edmonds, Biblical Sites in Turkey, p. 139-140).

http://www.padfield.com/2005/laodicea.html

One of the famous cities of Asia, Laodicea, was that same year overthrown by an earthquake, and, without any relief from us, recovered itself by its own resources. Tacitus, Annals, Book 14, chapter 27.

The earthquake in 60 AD, from which the city of Laodicea rebuilt itself, also gives us a clue as to the dating of the book of Revelation. It seems clear that the references to Laodicea's great wealth and "need of nothing" refer to this period of time when Laodicea - taking great pride in its wealth - was refusing offers to help rebuild from the quake's devastation. This is our first real clue as to the dating of the book, which appears, at least, to have been written during this time of reconstruction, sometime after 60 AD.

There are other clues we will find along the way that refine the dating of the book even further.

The point here is that the book of Revelation cannot be separated from the time and people during which and for whom it was clearly written. To superimpose a futuristic meaning on text which refers to historical events does a great disservice both to the book and today's church.

There are many who exploit people's ignorance over this book to enrich themselves. I hope this study - freely offered - will change that.

 

[Stormcrow]

Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands; and in the middle of the lampstands I saw one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across His chest with a golden sash. His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire. His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters. In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength. Revelation 1:12-16 (NASB)

​

This passage introduces us to the symbolism inherent in the book of Revelation. The symbolism - taken by itself and removed from context - can be interpreted to mean anything the reader wants it to mean.

Fortunately, the symbolism of the book of Revelation is both tied to and pulled straight from the pages of the Old Testament, and it's in the Old Testament where we find the keys for unlocking Revelation's meaning. This will become increasingly important as we go further into the book.

The view presented of the risen, glorified Christ in these four verses is taken right our of the book of Daniel:

"I kept looking Until thrones were set up, And the Ancient of Days took His seat; His vesture was like white snow And the hair of His head like pure wool. His throne was ablaze with flames, Its wheels were a burning fire. Daniel 7:9 (NASB)

On the twenty-fourth day of the first month, while I was by the bank of the great river, that is, the Tigris, I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, there was a certain man dressed in linen, whose waist was girded with a belt of pure gold of Uphaz. His body also was like beryl, his face had the appearance of lightning, his eyes were like flaming torches, his arms and feet like the gleam of polished bronze, and the sound of his words like the sound of a tumult.Daniel 10:4-6 (NASB)
​

The image of the risen, glorified Christ God gives John is the same image Daniel received and recounts in his book.

This is important to understand because at the time of this book's writing, churches of the area were made up mostly of Jewish believers. John - who was an "apostle to the circumcised" (Gal. 2:9) is addressing a primarily Jewish readership: people who would know and understand these images from their training in the OT.

This is further born out from the information presented about Laodicea in my last post:

Antiochus the Great transported 2,000 Jewish families to Phrygia from Babylonia.[12]Many of Laodicea's inhabitants were Jews, and Cicero records that Flaccus confiscated the considerable sum of 9 kg of gold which was being sent annually to Jerusalem for the Temple (Pro Flacco 28-68).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laodicea_on_the_Lycus
​

Keep in mind, therefore, that the symbolism in the book of Revelation must be interpreted through the eyes of 1st century Jews, not through the eyes of 21st century American evangelicals and fundamentalists!

The best way to do this is by using the Old Testament to interpret the symbolism of Revelation! Revelation cannot be separated from its time and culture, otherwise the symbolism of the book can be interpreted to mean anything ignorant and unscrupulous teachers want it to mean!

Finally, God, through John, is telling these predominately Jewish churches through the use of imagery they would know from the Old Testament, that Christ is alive in heaven, that He is in control, that He is God (Alpha and Omega), and that what is about to happen (Rev. 1:1) is His doing! The implication of that last statement will become clear in Revelation 5!

Hopefully, this is all becoming clear.

 

[Stormcrow]

When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades. Revelation 1:17-18 (NASB)

​

In my last post, I made the point that Revelation needs to be understood in the context of the Old Testament. Here we have further evidence of this in verses 17 and 18.

Notice how John reacts upon seeing the glorified Christ: he falls at His feet "like a dead man" and it's only through Christ's reassurance John is able to pull Himself together to receive what the Lord has for Him. Daniel reacted the same way upon His encounter with Christ in the Old Testament:

Now I, Daniel, alone saw the vision, while the men who were with me did not see the vision; nevertheless, a great dread fell on them, and they ran away to hide themselves. So I was left alone and saw this great vision; yet no strength was left in me, for my natural color turned to a deathly pallor, and I retained no strength. But I heard the sound of his words; and as soon as I heard the sound of his words, I fell into a deep sleep on my face, with my face to the ground.

Then behold, a hand touched me and set me trembling on my hands and knees. He said to me, "O Daniel, man of high esteem, understand the words that I am about to tell you and stand upright, for I have now been sent to you." And when he had spoken this word to me, I stood up trembling. Daniel 10:7-11 (NASB)

​

You're going to see - especially in these next few verses - that Christ, through John, is using these virtually identical experiences both to establish His credentials as God of the Old Testament, and place His stamp of authority upon John's letters, especially as they would pertain to a primarily Jewish audience.

This is important because Christ was a stumbling block to the Jews (I Cor. 1:22-23). They needed affirmation - especially under the intense persecution they were suffering for believing in Him - that Christ was who He said He was and that He was in control. Christ is revealing Himself to John's readers in terms they can understand.

In other words, He is reaching out to them where they are with the same compassion and concern He showed His disciples while He was with them, and using language and imagery they can understand to allay their fears and doubts.

Isn't it good that God reaches us in terms we can understand?

As I wrote before, this is especially important when He says this:

"I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore..."
​

Something I had never noticed before undertaking this study is that these same words Christ speaks to John He has spoken to His prophet Isaiah centuries before!

"Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me. Isaiah 44:6 (NASB)

"Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. "Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens; When I call to them, they stand together. Isaiah 48:12-13 (NASB)

Some say Christ was not God but just the "son of God." These verses from both Revelation and Isaiah should forever end the argument that Jesus Christ is not God almighty!

In terms of His humanity, He is the Son. In terms of His divinity, He is God.

This is precisely the kind of affirmation the Jews need(ed) to realize that the crucified and risen Christ of the New Testament is the King of kings and Lord of lords of the Old! These words still affirm His Lordship today, some 2,000 years later!

Finally, we come to this:

"I have the keys of death and of Hades."

​

As this post is long enough already, I'll go over this in the next post.

 

[Stormcrow]

Hopefully, this study is providing people with the necessary tools to understand Revelation on their own. If anyone sees the value of continuing this, please drop me some feedback. Otherwise, it seems as though I am just "talking to myself" here.

Thanks.

 

[reba]

Of the many weird and absurd interpretations that have been rendered about the book of Revelation, none are perhaps more bizarre than those which, somehow, see this book as being written to us, and attempt to allegorize these seven churches as seven church “types†that have existed throughout these intervening 2,000 years.

Seems to me every generation from about 1840 wants to be the us.

 

[ChristianNationalist]

Soon is a relative word, especially when it comes from God. His soon is not our soon.

 

[Stormcrow]

Soon is a relative word, especially when it comes from God. His soon is not our soon.

So God does not know how to communicate to people in terms they can understand? Or was He just kidding?

 

[reba]

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.


Gen 41:32 And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass.
Php 2:19 But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timotheus shortly unto you, that I also may be of good comfort, when I know your state.

Didn't take 2000+ years for these "shortlys" to come to pass

Gen 27:41 And Esau hated Jacob because of the blessing wherewith his father blessed him: and Esau said in his heart, The days of mourning for my father are at hand; then will I slay my brother Jacob.
Jer 23:23 Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off?
Joh 7:2 Now the Jews' feast of tabernacles was at hand.
Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
There are more shortlys and at hands in the Scriptures i just grabbed a few.. Why do so many of us want to believe the meaning of the the terms changes in The Revelation?

 

[Hitch]

The cute part is that the DF and the Full Preterist makes the same mistake, confusing the temporal judgment of Israel and the Second Advent

 

[Stormcrow]

"...I have the keys of Death and Hades." Revelation 1:17-18 (ESV)

There can be no doubt as to the one who holds the fate of each and every one of us in His hands now. Jesus Christ, who gave His life and took it up again (John 10:17-18), has the power of God over death and Hades itself, having taken it from the devil at His resurrection.

There is so much implicated theologically in these eight words, that volumes could be written about what they mean, (difference between Hades and Tartarus - the Hebrew Sheol and Gehenna - for instance) but what's important to understand about this verse is how Satan came by these keys in the first place; how Christ defeated Him, and how this affects us living today.

First of all, the Word of God doesn't contradict itself, it interprets itself. How did Satan come by the keys of Death and Hades? The theological understanding of this verse goes all the way back to Genesis:

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” Genesis 2:16-17 (ESV)

The consequence of eating from this tree was death, but when Adam and Eve did eventually eat of it, they did not die physically that day! Was God lying to them that they would die the day they ate from it?

Not at all. The death they suffered immediately upon eating it was spiritual death and it was manifested when they were thrown out of God's presence in the Garden.

At the risk of getting a little sidetracked, returning us to "the presence of God" is what redemption in Christ means, as it is in His presence and only His presence that we "live, move, and have our being" (Job 12:10). It is such a fundamental tenet of the redemptive work of Christ, that the entire New Testament revolves around it:

14 knowing that he who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and bring us with you into his presence. 2 Corinthians 4:14 (ESV)

9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, 2 Thessalonians 1:9 (ESV)

24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. Hebrews 9:24 (ESV)

24 Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, Jude 1:24 (ESV)

Just as our banishment from His presence resulted in spiritual death, so our return to His presence results in spiritual life, and it this spiritual life that Jesus died to give us both now and eternally!

21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 5:21 (ESV)

John, in the Book of Revelation, isn't introducing us to new doctrines, but affirming what was said by Christ Himself and written by the other apostles!

More to write on this. More in next post.

 

[ChristianNationalist]

So God does not know how to communicate to people in terms they can understand? Or was He just kidding?

Oh, I sure he can. Can and do are two completely different things.

 

[Stormcrow]

Oh, I sure he can. Can and do are two completely different things.

So if God doesn't communicate to us in terms we can understand, how do you know you are saved? Did He tell you? If so, how can you know what He said is what He meant???

Once you start down that path, you may as well leave the faith because using that logic, nothing God says would then be trustworthy.

 

[ChristianNationalist]

It's perfectly understandable, it's not God's fault if you misinterpret. In the span of the thousands of years in which modern civilization has existed "soon" is an extremely relative term. Or do you expect him to say, "see you next Tuesday." Seeing as how you're so literal in your translation of the Bible, how do you square Jesus' statement "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

Last I checked everyone standing there died a long time ago and we're still waiting for his Kingdom.

 

[Hitch]

It's perfectly understandable, it's not God's fault if you misinterpret. In the span of the thousands of years in which modern civilization has existed "soon" is an extremely relative term. Or do you expect him to say, "see you next Tuesday." Seeing as how you're so literal in your translation of the Bible, how do you square Jesus' statement "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

Last I checked everyone standing there died a long time ago and we're still waiting for his Kingdom.

Christians have been translated into His kingdom .

 

[Stormcrow]

It's perfectly understandable, it's not God's fault if you misinterpret. In the span of the thousands of years in which modern civilization has existed "soon" is an extremely relative term. Or do you expect him to say, "see you next Tuesday."

Last I checked everyone standing there died a long time ago and we're still waiting for his Kingdom.

For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. Colossians 1:13-14 (NASB)

and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. Revelation 1:6 (NASB)

The apostles disagree with you.

Seeing as how you're so literal in your translation of the Bible, how do you square Jesus' statement "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

Addressed here:

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=40427&highlight=2+Chronicles+36%3A15-19+%28NASB%29

And here:

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=39205&p=584606&viewfull=1#post584606

His coming was to judge Israel for rejecting Him and persecuting His apostles, just as God came in judgment upon Jerusalem, using Babylon, in the OT.

The LORD, the God of their fathers, sent word to them again and again by His messengers, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place; but they continually mocked the messengers of God, despised His words and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against His people, until there was no remedy.

Therefore He brought up against them the king of the Chaldeans who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion on young man or virgin, old man or infirm; He gave them all into his hand. All the articles of the house of God, great and small, and the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king and of his officers, he brought them all to Babylon.

Then they burned the house of God and broke down the wall of Jerusalem, and burned all its fortified buildings with fire and destroyed all its valuable articles.

Those who had escaped from the sword he carried away to Babylon; and they were servants to him and to his sons until the rule of the kingdom of Persia, 2 Chronicles 36:15-20 (NASB) ​

"Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

"Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

"Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! Matthew 23:34-38 (NASB)
​

He came in judgment upon Jerusalem in 70 AD, just as He said He would. The instrument of His judgment - the legions of Rome - completely destroyed the city and its Temple.

We have been, are, and forevermore shall be in His kingdom.

"soon" is an extremely relative term.

God is not a post-modern Marxist philosopher. Or a Democrat.

 

[Broncobilly1972]

For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? (1 Corinthians 3:3 KJV)

You talk only about the physical, is it possible that you can speak to the spiritual?

But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. (Jude 1:10 KJV)

Seeing it spiritually is to be able to match it to physical history? That is seeing things in the carnal sense.

Would you really sin if you put a muzzle on your ox while he threaded out the corn?

Show it to me spiritually and I will take my words back, that you speak of carnal things.

 

[Hitch]

For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? (1 Corinthians 3:3 KJV)

You talk only about the physical, is it possible that you can speak to the spiritual?

But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. (Jude 1:10 KJV)

Seeing it spiritually is to be able to match it to physical history? That is seeing things in the carnal sense.

Would you really sin if you put a muzzle on your ox while he threaded out the corn?

Show it to me spiritually and I will take my words back, that you speak of carnal things.

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