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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Revelation 1: an alternate study.
- Thread starter Stormcrow
- Start date
H
Hitch
Guest
If there is anything left of the Apocalypse to come to pass it is very near the end of the book. Storm and I dont agree on some important issues but he is certainly correct in his assessment of the opening three verses of the book.
Stormcrow
Member
The main source of our disagreement - as far as I can tell - is that Hitch believes there is yet another coming of Christ (His "return") that has not happened yet, whereas I believe His second coming was inexorably linked to His judgment upon Jerusalem, and the generation that crucified Him and killed His apostles, in 70 AD.
We both have our reasons for believing as we do and I'm not one to argue about it. Time will tell as to who is right or wrong on that point.
The point I am trying to get people to see is that the book of Revelation was written to a specific people (the seven churches) in a specific place (what we now call Turkey) at a specific time (65-68 AD) for a specific reason (to reveal Christ as God Almighty).
What I'm hoping people will get from this little study is a solid, useful set of tools for understanding this book that they can then use to understand other difficult passages in the Bible. But to get there, people have to be willing to set aside what they think they know about it - as I had to - and examine it from a completely fresh perspective.
In the end, people may not agree with me and that's OK. As long as I have provoked thought in folks and challenged long held beliefs and assumptions, then I've done my job.
That's not to say I won't defend what I believe with great vigor (when I'm not too tired to do so.)
Stormcrow
Member
I used to believe this. I have spoken in tongues in the past, have interpreted them, have prophesied in church, and have been miraculously healed.
I don't operate in these areas anymore, because Jesus said one would know a tree by its fruit, not its miracles, and the fruit of the Spirit is what we should be striving to display.
Richasher777
Member
Hi Stormcrow, you have a desire for good fruit, but you are neglecting Jude 20
Praying in tongues building yourself up in your most holy of faiths. The works of faith include prayer, please I encourage you in the Lord to replumb the wells.
Community is important to sustain momentum.
Praying in tongues building yourself up in your most holy of faiths. The works of faith include prayer, please I encourage you in the Lord to replumb the wells.
Community is important to sustain momentum.
thethinkingrebel
Member
Well Stormcrow, you are entitled to believe whatever you want. Thats what freedom is all about, and I will certainly listen and consider what you have to say
Revelation is certainly one of the most used and abused by those with an agenda. Perhaps if you are correct you can stamp on a few vipers.
If not then its still an interesting consideration
Stormcrow
Member
Well Stormcrow, you are entitled to believe whatever you want. Thats what freedom is all about, and I will certainly listen and consider what you have to say
Revelation is certainly one of the most used and abused by those with an agenda. Perhaps if you are correct you can stamp on a few vipers.
If not then its still an interesting consideration
Here is the kind of whacked-out nonsense I've been trying to fight against, rebel...
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/dec2011/ronr1228.htm
Here's an excerpt:
THE LORD REVEALED TO ME THAT THIS DATE OF THE NWO'S PLANNED SUDDEN DESTRUCTION IN LATE JANUARY OF 2012 IS ALSO THE BIBLICAL DATE OF THE SUDDEN DESTRUCTION of 1st Thess. 5:3.Therefore, we have every right to believe that this same date will be the date of the Rapture of the Bride of Christ. In tomorrow's post, I will show how this NWO's Planned Sudden Destruction is the Biblical date for the Sudden Destruction/Rapture.
Anyone can claim "revelation" from the Lord, but the devil is still in the details. Another rapture prediction that came and went (late January of this year), and still the world goes on.
I don't question these people's sincerity. I question their sanity.
thethinkingrebel
Member
this indeed something both sides of our camp have to put up with. it disregards Christ's warning that noone knows when this will happen.
beware false prophets. I am actually to the point where anyone who says they are a prophet is in my book a liar. You cannot predict this stuff lest ye be God!
Stormcrow
Member
The problem is that the Dispy/Futurist view readily lends itself to this kind of nonsense. No one would be claiming such things if they didn't believe the book of Revelation was intended for 21st century America.
And the beat goes on.
2
thethinkingrebel
Member
There are evidently events in Revelation that are unfulfilled, Rev 6+7, as well as a beast that can draw fire from heaven (Rev 13). The world divided into 10 kingdoms? plus a 1000 year Christian Kingdom? Unless you count catholicism this has not yet happened..this world has been anything but Christian...plus Israel does not even believe Jesus to be Messiah..yet that is where the Kingdom reigns from.
Then we have the New Heavens and New Earth, there is still sin, still suffering and the world cannot shout that "God dwells with us", because alot of people are atheist, or of other religions. I have yet to see people cast into the lake of fire, or gathered for judgment..this did not happen in 70 AD as it refers to all peoples and nations..and we are still here, in a sinful fallen world.
It is not figurative, yet why it say it is going to happen soon. Many of the prophetic judgments of the OT were described centuries before they happened. It is a conundrum, and generally I would be inclined to agree with you, but there are far too many inconsistencies, also, the book of Daniel describes a Kingdom of Iron and Clay, nearly 1000 years before it was formed (Rome and Christianity). after that Kingdom does the Kingdom of God arrive, we are still in Iron and Clay, out of which 10 kingdoms arrive..this being that described by the club of Rome [which explains how these Kingdoms grow from Rome].
You can google club of Rome ten kingdoms it is fact. either it is a coincidence or its evidence of what is to come.
I would be far more inclined to listen to someone like Chuck Missler, a calm and collected man (sadly a rapture believer)..than these preachers who claim to be "anointed" [Perry Stone] and then proceed to start shouting and pointing his mic at the audience.
There really are sheep among the wolves, but sadly we are surrounded by wolves.
I like you Stormcrow, you have passion, I dont know if you are preaching heresy or not, I would suggest you prepare either way, have an escape route and somewhere to go if it kicks off. You have nothing to lose..I mean the world is getting worse, people hate Christ and the New Age is preaching a world teacher who is coming.
Just be careful.
Then we have the New Heavens and New Earth, there is still sin, still suffering and the world cannot shout that "God dwells with us", because alot of people are atheist, or of other religions. I have yet to see people cast into the lake of fire, or gathered for judgment..this did not happen in 70 AD as it refers to all peoples and nations..and we are still here, in a sinful fallen world.
It is not figurative, yet why it say it is going to happen soon. Many of the prophetic judgments of the OT were described centuries before they happened. It is a conundrum, and generally I would be inclined to agree with you, but there are far too many inconsistencies, also, the book of Daniel describes a Kingdom of Iron and Clay, nearly 1000 years before it was formed (Rome and Christianity). after that Kingdom does the Kingdom of God arrive, we are still in Iron and Clay, out of which 10 kingdoms arrive..this being that described by the club of Rome [which explains how these Kingdoms grow from Rome].
You can google club of Rome ten kingdoms it is fact. either it is a coincidence or its evidence of what is to come.
I would be far more inclined to listen to someone like Chuck Missler, a calm and collected man (sadly a rapture believer)..than these preachers who claim to be "anointed" [Perry Stone] and then proceed to start shouting and pointing his mic at the audience.
There really are sheep among the wolves, but sadly we are surrounded by wolves.
I like you Stormcrow, you have passion, I dont know if you are preaching heresy or not, I would suggest you prepare either way, have an escape route and somewhere to go if it kicks off. You have nothing to lose..I mean the world is getting worse, people hate Christ and the New Age is preaching a world teacher who is coming.
Just be careful.
Stormcrow
Member
Everything you've written here is based on a doctrine not supported by the text or historical context itself. I would go point-by-point through this, but I'm really not feeling well and will try to address the issues you raised here later (I have addressed them before.)
Thanks. Be blessed.
Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Luk 22:16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
Luk 22:17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
Luk 22:18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
Luk 24:40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
Luk 24:41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
Luk 24:42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
Luk 24:43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
Stormcrow
Member
Alright, I'm going to try to address your post one point at a time, each in a separate reply, just to keep things to a reasonable length. I'll start with what you've raised about Revelation 6 & 7 (because it ties in with something John wrote in chapter 1). (My comments henceforth in red.)
Let's look at one passage in chapter 6 to start this off:
When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth [literally, "land']?"
And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also. Revelation 6:9-11 (NASB)
Now, please follow the thread of prophecy to fulfillment here carefully...
In the gospel of Matthew, Jesus tells His disciples this:
"Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves. "But beware of men, for they will hand you over to the courts and scourge you in their synagogues; and you will even be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles.
"But when they hand you over, do not worry about how or what you are to say; for it will be given you in that hour what you are to say. "For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.
"Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.
"But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes. Matthew 10:16-23 (NASB)
So He's telling His disciples they are going to face persecution (tribulation) at the hands of the Jews. He puts it more bluntly as recorded in John's gospel:
"These things I have spoken to you so that you may be kept from stumbling. "They will make you outcasts from the synagogue, but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God. "These things they will do because they have not known the Father or Me. "But these things I have spoken to you, so that when their hour comes, you may remember that I told you of them. These things I did not say to you at the beginning, because I was with you. John 16:1-4 (NASB)
So He's preparing them for the tribulation that's going to come upon them for believing in Him and spreading the gospel (the testimony of Jesus). We can call this the "tribulation of believers" and in Revelation, chapter 1, John is telling his readers he's caught in it!
I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. Revelation 1:9 (NASB)
Following this so far?
Now, let's go back to Matthew 23 and see what's happening. Jesus has been confronting the chief priests, scribes, and Pharisees since He arrived in Jerusalem for His last Passover seder a few days before (Matthew 21). By the time we get to chapter 23, He's taken off the "kid gloves" and is not speaking to them in parables anymore: His tone is combative and accusatory. He finishes pronouncing His flurry of "eight woes" against them with this:
"Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city...
(This is the same thing He told His disciples as recorded in Matthew 10 and John 16!)
...so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth [literally, "land"], from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
(He is telling them that the blood of every prophet slain by their forefathers and those that they would slay would be held against them: the chief priests, scribes and Pharisees He is addressing right then and there!)
"Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! Matthew 23:34-38 (NASB)
His disciples, hearing all of this, follow Him out of the Temple grounds, which sets the stage for the questions they would ask Him on the Mount of Olives, prompting the Olivet Discourse. Now, follow what Christ tells them:
"Then they [the chief priests, scribes and Pharisees He has been confronting all week!] will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. [These are the "antichrists" of whom John writes in His epistles, those who "went out from them."] Matthew 24:9-10 (NASB)
So again, He is telling them the same thing He told them in Matthew 10, John 16, and what He told the religious leaders in Matthew 23. He is again prophesying of the "tribulation of believers." But then He says this:
"Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. "Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. Matthew 24:15-21 (NASB)
Christ introduces us to another tribulation, a "great tribulation" that comes as a result of the tribulation of believers (His apostles!) This "great tribulation" is the tribulation that leads to Jerusalem's desolation (destruction):
"Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! Matthew 23:38 (NASB)
Luke puts it this way:
"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. "Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Luke 21:20-24 (NASB)
The armies prophesied here are the legions of Rome that besieged the city of Jerusalem, breached its walls, slaughtered scores of thousands, and took the city and Temple apart stone by stone.
So in Matthew 24, we see not one tribulation but two: the tribulation of believers and the tribulation of Jerusalem, the former being both a sign and a cause of the latter.
Now, this is important: in the first seven chapters of Revelation, every mention of "tribulation" refers to this "tribulation of believers." The souls under the altar in chapter 6 are those apostles and prophets Christ sent to the "lost sheep of Israel" who were killed for the testimony of Jesus, starting with Stephen in Acts 7. The vengeance they were seeking from beneath the altar was the vengeance Christ told the religious leaders, in Matthew 23, they would suffer for killing those He sent to them.
The last time this word "tribulation" is used in the entire book of Revelation is seen in chapter 7, verse 14, and it's a scene depicting the martyrs in white robes (the same white robes they were given under the altar in chapter 6), praising God and serving Him in the heavenly Temple...NOTE: NOT an earthly one! This scene signifies that God's vengeance is about to be poured out on Jerusalem.
The rest of the book of Revelation (chapters 8 -20) details the wrath that would befall Jerusalem: a wrath that Luke's gospel recounts this way:
When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it, saying, "If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes. "For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side, and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation." Luke 19:41-44 (NASB)
Hopefully, this will give people something to chew on for a good, long, while.
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I think you better reexamine this passage again as it is off by a mile both historically and logically..
Larry
Stormcrow
Member
thethinkingrebel
Member
LOL! OK, will do!
Very good, some of those quotes seem to REALLY coincide!
however,
what of the 1000 year kingdom which is on Earth?
Or the New Heavens and New Earth?
Also the "souls" of those martyred is figurative, the martyrs are not literally standing there. God sees the bodies, and their blood cries out for justice. They are given white robes which is a sign of redemption. The dead in Christ rise first. But not yet.
I have to also ask, when is the resurrection in this theory? or is that not an actual earthly resurrection on a new earth?
Stormcrow
Member
It takes you a few minutes to post a reply like this. It takes me a couple of hours to post a reply like the one I gave you above. I don't have time to address all of your "shotgun-like" questions with "rifle-like" replies.
You can answer some of those questions yourself. Get the program linked in my signature and start searching some of these answers out for yourself.
Just to follow up...
In trying to research these answers for yourself, keep in mind that everything I wrote in post 74 is consistent with John's view that everything Jesus prophesied circa 30 AD would happen "soon" circa 68 AD, when he wrote Revelation: clearly and reasonably within the timespan of the generation about which Christ prophesied all these things in the Olivet Discourse.
I believe this is the only way to maintain the integrity of every apocalyptic passage in the New Testament. There are many, many, more threads like this that run throughout, not only the New Testament, but the entire Bible. The keys for understanding these things is that the entire Bible is centered around Israel (and the Jews in the NT), and so we have to see it from that perspective. None of it was written to us, though we can learn from virtually every bit of it.
The second key is to use literal terms and phrases, like "soon" and "near" to provide a framework by which to understand the symbolism in the book. Too often, people go straight to the symbolic passages and, in interpreting those, use them as a key for trying to understand the rest, including the literal parts. Well, the problem with that is if you start with a bad interpretation, everything else you try to apply it to is going to be bad, too.
That's not the way to do it.
Now, with that in mind, here's your first homework assignment: what did the phrase "heaven and earth" mean to ancient Jews and how was it reflected in the Temple?
Answer that and you'll be on your way to understanding the rest.
I'm trying to teach you how to fish here.
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H
Hitch
Guest
Chapter and verse please .
Are you saying all is the same as it was before the cross and resurrection of Christ?
Chapter and verse please
John 6;39