The Elect Hear The Voice Of The Shepherd.

[Boaz]

Joh 10:1"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber.

Joh 10:2But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

Joh 10:3To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

Joh 10:4When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.

Joh 10:5A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers."

Joh 10:6 This figure of speech Jesus used with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them.

Joh 10:7 So Jesus again said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.

Joh 10:8All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them.

Joh 10:9I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture.

Joh 10:10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.

Joh 10:11I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

Joh 10:12He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them.

Joh 10:13He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

Joh 10:14I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,

Joh 10:15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Joh 10:16And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

Joh 10:17For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again.

Joh 10:18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father."

I have had a love for the theology of the "Reformers" for years. Perhaps because their theology came about because of intense persecution from the Church at Rome. The man who stands out in my mind is John Calvin. Today, Calvin's TULIP is not received by a large population of theologians and Bible students, perhaps because the opponents to Calvinism are more vocal than the proponents.

Now, a small number of Forum members know that I have added to Calvin's original TULIP, the GCOG, or the General Call Of the Gospel. For reasons that we don't know, Calvin did not include Scripture like John 3:16, For God so loved the WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son. That WHOEVER believed.....
Perhaps there was something in Catholic dogma that made him stay away from those text's.

At any rate, I see in this great portrayal of Jesus the true Shepherd, and the Elect, the sheep, and the knowledge that each had for one another, it's beautiful!

Now, in John 10:3 "To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out." (Lets swap the word sheep for Elect for this study) It reads, the Elect hear His (Jesus) voice, and He calls His own Elect by name. Lets look at Ephesians 1:3-5

Ephesians 1:3 " Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 1:5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will."

It is my opinion that God (Elohiym) knew each of the elect that He would bring into this world at a specific time, location, and purpose, just like Jerimiah in the Book Jerimiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations." I added that Scripture to validate that Jesus knew the Elect that He would call into His service by name as it says in John 10:3.

Ok, because this thread is so involved, I'll stop here and pick it up again in a new section.

One of my favorite discourses in John, since I became Reformed, is this parable/analogy of the sheepfold. Those sheep that hear His voice are so obviously particular people, the ones God GAVE to Jesus. It also brings to mind a new richness to Psalm 23.

 

[Boaz]

Chopper,

You seem to be missing a dimension here:

Article 3 of the Five Articles of Remonstrance states:

Article 3​

That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as saving Faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the Word of Christ, John 15:5, “Without me ye can do nothing.​

What did Jacobus Arminius believe about Total Depravity? In one of his disputations, he wrote:

V. In the state of Primitive Innocence, man had a mind endued with a clear understanding of heavenly light and truth concerning God, and his works and will, as far as was sufficient for the salvation of man and the glory of God; he had a heart imbued with “righteousness and true holiness,” and with a true and saving love of good; and powers abundantly qualified or furnished perfectly to fulfill the law which God had imposed on him. This admits easily of proof, from the description of the image of God, after which man is said to have been created, (Gen. i. 26, 27,) from the law divinely imposed on him, which had a promise and a threat appended to it, (ii, 17,) and lastly from the analogous restoration of the same image in Christ Jesus. (Ephes. iv. 24, Col. iii. 10.)​

​

VI. But man was not so confirmed in this state of innocence, as to be incapable of being moved, by the representation presented to him of some good, (whether it was of an inferior kind and relating to this animal life, or of a superior-kind and relating to spiritual life,) inordinately and unlawfully to look upon it and to desire it, and of his own spontaneous as well as free motion, and through a preposterous desire for that good, to decline from the obedience which had been prescribed to him. Nay, having turned away from the light of his own mind and his chief good, which is God, or, at least, having turned towards that chief good not in the manner in which he ought to have done, and besides having turned in mind and heart towards an inferior good, he transgressed the command given to him for life. By this foul deed, he precipitated himself from that noble and elevated condition into a state of the deepest infelicity, which is Under The Dominion of Sin. For “to whom any one yields himself a servant to obey,” (Rom. vi. 16,) and “of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage,” and is his regularly assigned slave. (2 Pet. ii. 19.)​

​

VII. In this state, the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace. For Christ has said, “Without me ye can do nothing.” St. Augustine, after having diligently meditated upon each word in this passage, speaks thus: “Christ does not say, without me ye can do but Little; neither does He say, without me ye can do any Arduous Thing, nor without me ye can do it with difficulty. But he says, without me ye can do Nothing! Nor does he say, without me ye cannot complete any thing; but without me ye can do Nothing.” That this may be made more manifestly to appear, we will separately consider the mind, the affections or will, and the capability, as contra-distinguished from them, as well as the life itself of an unregenerate man (Arminius 1977:525-526).​

Therefore, Jacobus (James) Arminius and Reformed/Classical Arminians most certainly believed in Total Depravity.

Arminius also believed in the Perseverance of the Saints (The writings of James Arminius, vol 1).

So the T and P of TULIP are not exclusive to Calvinists.

Works consulted
Arminius, J. 1977 The writings of James Arminius, vol. 1, Public disputations of Arminius, Disputation 11 (On the free will of man and its powers), 523-531. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House. Available at: Works of James Arminius, Vol. 1 – Christian Classics Ethereal Library (Accessed 21 April 2014).

Seems like he is saying that after writing this he intended to discuss in more detail how the Fall affected specifically the mind and the will. So what did he say about that? Armenianism is nearly always used refer to free will so there must be a reason. Although I do know that his beliefs can no more be summed up in free will than Calvinism can be in TULIP.

 

[OzSpen]

Seems like he is saying that after writing this he intended to discuss in more detail how the Fall affected specifically the mind and the will. So what did he say about that? Armenianism is nearly always used refer to free will so there must be a reason. Although I do know that his beliefs can no more be summed up in free will than Calvinism can be in TULIP.

What's the difference between Armenianism and Arminianism?

Who is 'he' to whom you refer?

 

[Boaz]

This verse is sufficient to show that the context "My sheep" and the things that pertain to "My sheep" is a reference to His disciples.

The two classes of sheep are His disciples that literally followed Him when He was on earth, and everyone else.

You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. John 15:16


The context here, refers to His Apostles... as He says that you should go. Go or being sent is a reference to Apostles.


Now if Jesus says this to another person, like say Saul of Tarsus, then what He says to that person is for that person.


My sheep here my Voice, is a general statement that refers to all His sheep, ie: both groups


We should not take a direct phrase spoken to another individual's call or election and apply it to ourselves...
whether it is Go into all the world and preach the Gospel... which was spoken directly to His disciples and was the Apostolic commissioning, as He said "Go"...

To many decide to Go, but were never sent.

To Abraham He said -

Now the Lord had said to Abram:

“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
Genesis 12:1-3


Nor should we apply to our lives a "choosing" by God, that was meant specifically for someone else.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to t "he praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. Ephesians 1:3-6


God chose those who were in Christ, and predestined them...

The question is, how does a person come to be "in Christ"?

How did Abraham come to be in Christ?

He heard His Voice, and obeyed.

My sheep hear My Voice...



JLB

You could look at it that way if you WANTED to. Could He chose us IN HIM before the foundation of the world possibly mean He chose us to BE in Him. Perfectly proper exegesis, not reading Into the scripture. Verse 5 actually explains that is what it means (unless you contort the meaning of predestined.) "Having predestined us for adoption as sons by Jesus Christ Himself, according to the good pleasure of
HIS WILL---"
You say God chose those who are in Christ.
Who put them there? And choosing something that already is, isn't exactly choosing. And it wasn't obedience that justified Abraham, it was his faith in God that produced the obedience.
I really don't understand your conclusion that the sheep were the disciples and obviously I disagree with you and it's ok with me. Hope you feel the same. The other sheep are the ones besides those present. An allegory for the Gospel being for Gentiles also. But the sheep that belong to Jesus, who were GIVEN to Jesus, are particular persons, the ones predestined by the Father. They weren't given to Jesus because God already knew who would believe and who wouldn't. That wouldn't involve giving at all.

 

[GodsGrace]

You could look at it that way if you WANTED to. Could He chose us IN HIM before the foundation of the world possibly mean He chose us to BE in Him. Perfectly proper exegesis, not reading Into the scripture. Verse 5 actually explains that is what it means (unless you contort the meaning of predestined.) "Having predestined us for adoption as sons by Jesus Christ Himself, according to the good pleasure of
HIS WILL---"
You say God chose those who are in Christ.
Who put them there? And choosing something that already is, isn't exactly choosing. And it wasn't obedience that justified Abraham, it was his faith in God that produced the obedience.
I really don't understand your conclusion that the sheep were the disciples and obviously I disagree with you and it's ok with me. Hope you feel the same. The other sheep are the ones besides those present. An allegory for the Gospel being for Gentiles also. But the sheep that belong to Jesus, who were GIVEN to Jesus, are particular persons, the ones predestined by the Father. They weren't given to Jesus because God already knew who would believe and who wouldn't. That wouldn't involve giving at all.

Hi R,
The above has totally baffled me!
Are you reformed (calvinist) in your theology?
Maybe it's because you're not understanding JLB and so your reply is confusing....to me.

Soon....
W

 

[OzSpen]

Hi R,
The above has totally baffled me!
Are you reformed (calvinist) in your theology?
Maybe it's because you're not understanding JLB and so your reply is confusing....to me.

Soon....
W

wondering,

What particularly baffles you from this post?

Which points need clarification for you?

Oz

 

[daninthelionsden]

Hmmm - Ok - I still don't see more than one 'class' of sheep. Two classes of animals perhaps ... sheep and goats. But as far as sheep are concerned they all are Christ's. Jesus came to his own people - the Jews. The other sheep who were to be brought into the fold are Gentiles. And so when it says that God so loved the world, it refers not only to the Jews, but to Gentile alike - ie the world.

Weren't there sheep vs rams mentioned by Christ?

 

[Boaz]

Hi R,
The above has totally baffled me!
Are you reformed (calvinist) in your theology?
Maybe it's because you're not understanding JLB and so your reply is confusing....to me.

Soon....
W

Yes I am Reformed. (Reformed05)If I'm not mistaken that is my right. I'm not sure what about my post baffles you but if you let me know I will try to clear it up. I understood what JLB was saying I disagree is all.

 

[jerry63935]

reformed vs free will like 2 bull in opposite fields. i had a email correspondence with a calvinist. he thought he was going to convert me he dropped off parts of reformed i agree with parts i dont like any other

 

[Boaz]

reformed vs free will like 2 bull in opposite fields. i had a email correspondence with a calvinist. he thought he was going to convert me he dropped off parts of reformed i agree with parts i dont like any other

I agree there and I apologize for all the pushy self righteous "Calvinist" who have been aggressive here or anywhere. Side bar though, I get the same thing from the free willers. There is more that we agree on than we disagree on, at least when it comes to the core saving beliefs of Christianity so I don't understand why it is always such an angry contention. I have had many wonderful conversations on this site with those on the opposite side of this disagreement so it is possible and kind of lovely.

That being said, I should also be aloud to freely express my beliefs if the subject comes up. I am never trying to ram it down anyone's throat. I am not the judge of others and what they believe, nor are others my judge. Free speech shouldn't be squelched by insult, humiliation or bullying.

 

[jerry63935]

That being said, I should also be aloud to freely express my beliefs

i support your right while i dont really agree with calvinism .i use post in a forum called carm . there was one dude called theo we butted heads .he would call my belief straw man accused me of false teaching. i told him buzz off few times . i will disagree with what i dont think lines up. i like a good discussion . actually i have studied calvinism out . i want to know about other doctrines

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

What particularly baffles you from this post?

Which points need clarification for you?

Oz

I'm going to reply to Reformed05 ....
It just sounds contradictory but I'm sure it's because I don't know him well enough.

 

[OzSpen]

I'm going to reply to Reformed05 ....
It just sounds contradictory but I'm sure it's because I don't know him well enough.

That would be good to get clarification from Reformed05.

By the way, Reformed05 identifies as a female.

 

[GodsGrace]

That would be good to get clarification from Reformed05.

By the way, Reformed05 identifies as a female.

Yeah.....
I wish our names were color coded.....

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes I am Reformed. (Reformed05)If I'm not mistaken that is my right. I'm not sure what about my post baffles you but if you let me know I will try to clear it up. I understood what JLB was saying I disagree is all.

Hi R,
I'll go back to your post and comment on what I couldn't understand.
Yes, it's your right to believe what you believe.
I can't agree, but we'll find out for sure when we get to heaven.

 

[GodsGrace]

You could look at it that way if you WANTED to. Could He chose us IN HIM before the foundation of the world possibly mean He chose us to BE in Him. Perfectly proper exegesis, not reading Into the scripture. Verse 5 actually explains that is what it means (unless you contort the meaning of predestined.) "Having predestined us for adoption as sons by Jesus Christ Himself, according to the good pleasure of
HIS WILL---"

This is also for OzSpen ....

Hi R,
In the above paragraph you state that God chose us before the beginning of the world to be IN HIM. You state that this is perfectly proper exegesis and I happen to agree with your statement.

God did NOT choose the person,,,but He chose the METHOD...God chose is IN JESUS to be saved...those in Jesus are saved.

You even state that this is not reading into the scriptures,,,also correct. AND, you state we would have to contort the meaning of predestination. Sounded good to me.

You say God chose those who are in Christ.
Who put them there? And choosing something that already is, isn't exactly choosing. And it wasn't obedience that justified Abraham, it was his faith in God that produced the obedience.
I really don't understand your conclusion that the sheep were the disciples and obviously I disagree with you and it's ok with me. Hope you feel the same. The other sheep are the ones besides those present. An allegory for the Gospel being for Gentiles also. But the sheep that belong to Jesus, who were GIVEN to Jesus, are particular persons, the ones predestined by the Father. They weren't given to Jesus because God already knew who would believe and who wouldn't. That wouldn't involve giving at all.

Here, instead, you start by asking WHO PUT THEM THERE?
And that choosing something that already is, is not choosing.
Now you started to sound calvinistic in nature, and this is where I became confused as to your beliefs. The following statements by you confirm you belief (re the sheep).

As to the sheep, I would like to say this.
Everyone that follow Jesus is a disciple and is considered to be His sheep...Jewish, Gentile,,,anyone that follows His teachings.

But the Apostles are called so because they were the original 12 that Jesus CHOSE to be sent out and spread the gospel. As John states,,,,Jesus DID choose the Apostles.

The Apostles were also Disciples....
But not all Disciples are Apostles....

I DO understand you now.

 

[Boaz]

That would be good to get clarification from Reformed05.

By the way, Reformed05 identifies as a female.

Oz

I don't IDENTTIFY as a female, I AM a female. LOL More later, I'm in the middle of

This is also for OzSpen ....

Hi R,
In the above paragraph you state that God chose us before the beginning of the world to be IN HIM. You state that this is perfectly proper exegesis and I happen to agree with your statement.

God did NOT choose the person,,,but He chose the METHOD...God chose is IN JESUS to be saved...those in Jesus are saved.

You even state that this is not reading into the scriptures,,,also correct. AND, you state we would have to contort the meaning of predestination. Sounded good to me.



Here, instead, you start by asking WHO PUT THEM THERE?
And that choosing something that already is, is not choosing.
Now you started to sound calvinistic in nature, and this is where I became confused as to your beliefs. The following statements by you confirm you belief (re the sheep).

As to the sheep, I would like to say this.
Everyone that follow Jesus is a disciple and is considered to be His sheep...Jewish, Gentile,,,anyone that follows His teachings.

But the Apostles are called so because they were the original 12 that Jesus CHOSE to be sent out and spread the gospel. As John states,,,,Jesus DID choose the Apostles.

The Apostles were also Disciples....
But not all Disciples are Apostles....

I DO understand you now.

To Wondering and Oz

You certainly make an utterly valid point about the meaning of in Christ in this passage. It absolutely could mean that those who are in Christ (and that COULD mean those who accepted Him of their own free will) are the sheep who follow Him. And it also could be first a reference to the disciples or even the Apostles and the others not of the fold a reference to Jew and Gentiles. I can find nothing off about your exegesis, and hallelujah you have some. I have found that to be a rare commodity in this age!
My different interpretation of this scripture comes from comparing this one to others that cover the subject of the sovereign choice of God in salvation, His absolute sovereignty in ALL things, and that salvation is 100 percent an act of God, with no contribution from fallen humanity. It was actually only a few months ago I was in a Bible "study" where this passage was being discussed and realized that those sheep, because of passages I remembered elsewhere, those sheep are particular people.
So the only difference we have is really only how we translate syntax? And bottom line, does it really matter? The end result, salvation, is the same.
And Wondering, it is super great you know the difference between disciples and the Apostles. Quite confident you do too Oz. Amazing how many don't know what the Apostles were appointed to do let alone let alone that they were appointed by Jesus for a specific purpose. In my experience most have consider what an apostle is by its definition---one who is sent. And right there all boundaries of Christianity are removed!

 

[GodsGrace]

Oz

I don't IDENTTIFY as a female, I AM a female. LOL More later, I'm in the middle of

To Wondering and Oz

You certainly make an utterly valid point about the meaning of in Christ in this passage. It absolutely could mean that those who are in Christ (and that COULD mean those who accepted Him of their own free will) are the sheep who follow Him. And it also could be first a reference to the disciples or even the Apostles and the others not of the fold a reference to Jew and Gentiles. I can find nothing off about your exegesis, and hallelujah you have some. I have found that to be a rare commodity in this age!
My different interpretation of this scripture comes from comparing this one to others that cover the subject of the sovereign choice of God in salvation, His absolute sovereignty in ALL things, and that salvation is 100 percent an act of God, with no contribution from fallen humanity. It was actually only a few months ago I was in a Bible "study" where this passage was being discussed and realized that those sheep, because of passages I remembered elsewhere, those sheep are particular people.
So the only difference we have is really only how we translate syntax? And bottom line, does it really matter? The end result, salvation, is the same.
And Wondering, it is super great you know the difference between disciples and the Apostles. Quite confident you do too Oz. Amazing how many don't know what the Apostles were appointed to do let alone let alone that they were appointed by Jesus for a specific purpose. In my experience most have consider what an apostle is by its definition---one who is sent. And right there all boundaries of Christianity are removed!

Agreed on all because I also feel that only God does the saving.
Man cannot save himself. Ephesians 2:8
Some theologians believe that grace, faith and salvation are all 3 referred to in Ephesians 2:8.,,,all three are a gift and it's not necessary to understand exactly which one Ephesians is referring to. I like that because I do believe, as do all Christians, that we cannot be saved by works but only by faith and grace...or grace THROUGH faith.

I also believe in the sovereignty of God. Nothing happens that God does not want to happen. It's not easy to reconcile this with God giving us free will...but, of course, I do believe we have free will.....unless God wills otherwise (Mary comes to mind, Luke 2).

Also, I do not understand why some reformed persons are so aggressive....we can not agree and still be Christianly toward each other.

 

[Walpole]

Agreed on all because I also feel that only God does the saving.
Man cannot save himself. Ephesians 2:8
Some theologians believe that grace, faith and salvation are all 3 referred to in Ephesians 2:8.,,,all three are a gift and it's not necessary to understand exactly which one Ephesians is referring to. I like that because I do believe, as do all Christians, that we cannot be saved by works but only by faith and grace...or grace THROUGH faith.

I also believe in the sovereignty of God. Nothing happens that God does not want to happen. It's not easy to reconcile this with God giving us free will...but, of course, I do believe we have free will.....unless God wills otherwise (Mary comes to mind, Luke 2).

Also, I do not understand why some reformed persons are so aggressive....we can not agree and still be Christianly toward each other.

God's sovereignty incorporates human free will. For if man is not free, he cannot be punished or rewarded for his actions.

You reference Mary in Luke 2. Are you arguing Mary was not free and did not exercise her free will? It seems to me to believe otherwise would render God a rapist.

 

[GodsGrace]

God's sovereignty incorporates human free will. For if man is not free, he cannot be punished or rewarded for his actions.

You reference Mary in Luke 2. Are you arguing Mary was not free and did not exercise her free will? (To believe otherwise renders God a rapist.)

Oh my goodness!
Mary said "Let it be done unto me".

However, I have discussed this visit of Gabriel.
The question arises: WHEN did Mary become immaculate?

At birth?
Then God knew she would have to say yes.

Was it her free will?
Does Gabriel sound like he's giving her a choice? Luke 2:31
Did God groom her for her future role?

This is an example of some stories that clearly show God had some part in man's free will. Did God harden Pharaoh's heart or did he already have a hard heart?
Exodus 8:21
Exodus 7:3

Did Moses volunteer or did God pick HIM?

I don't claim to understand God so well,,,as some do.
I do know that He is sovereign and I do know that I have free will.