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The Lord shows Abraham the future...

reba

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WOW that is really a a good thing ! God the Son leaves Heaven and sits in a chair on earth...
He is ruling from the highest seat of authority, right now, in heaven.
So if He is ruling from the highest seat of authority. Why should He lower Himself?
 

Free

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A lot of things are difficult to understand, that's why we have scripture.

...as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, 56 and said, "Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!"


When He comes to earth, He will sit upon His Throne here and rule from His throne on earth.

Maybe that's what you are referring to.
No, I am referring to what seems to be the fact that Jesus is currently the ruling king. He is currently king and nothing about that will change in the future.
 

jasoncran

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one of the many problems of futurism. God never lost his throne.
 

Free

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one of the many problems of futurism. God never lost his throne.
Well, no, God never did lose his throne but there is more to it than that. Man was ruler of this world until the Fall, then Satan the usurper became ruler. At Christ's death and resurrection, Christ became ruler and king.
 

jasoncran

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i no longer see satan having or had that power. the jews call G-D king, in the psalms he is called King and the prayers over channukah and passover address YHWH as such. satan has always been on a leash.remember that in numerous times satan was rebuked and told what he could do.
satan had no real power to give jesus those thrones as God rose up and put kings up at his will.
 
O

Osgiliath

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Originally posted by Free,

Well, no, God never did lose his throne but there is more to it than that. Man was ruler of this world until the Fall, then Satan the usurper became ruler. At Christ's death and resurrection, Christ became ruler and king.

What FALL? Neither Christ nor any of his apostles ever mention "the fall." The reason is that all the New Covenant writers understood that:

Jeremiah 18:4 "And the vessel that he made of clay was MARRED in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."

Romans 8:20 "For the creature was made [right from the hand of the Potter] subject to vanity, not willingly [not by choice, not by a 'fall'], but by reason of him [God, not by Adam's fabled 'free will'] who hath subjected the same in hope."


This is what is meant when we read:

Genesis 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

Genesis 3:19 "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."
[Adam was mere dust from the 'get-go.']


This is what we are being told when we read:

Genesis 2:25 "And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed."

Revelation 3:17 "Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked."


Do you believe these words? Or do you believe that "He created man in His image" means that man was made perfect and immortal [in the beginning], and then he fell.



The Truth of the scriptures is:

Romans 8:20 For the creature was made [right from the hand of the Potter=Creator] subject to vanity, NOT WILLINGLY [not by Adam's own 'free will'], but by reason of him [God Himself] who hath subjected the same in hope" [God's original plan was for Adam to disobey Him and come to see his corruptible nature and his need for a Savior. So God had already provided this Savior, before he ever created naked, dusty Adam.]


Here are the scriptures for the statement in brackets (above):

Revelation 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

1 Corinthians 2:7 "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory."

Ephesians 1:4 "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love."

2 Timothy 1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began."

Titus 1:2 "In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began."

1 Peter 1:19 "But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot."
1 Peter 1:20 "Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you."




God's dealings with Adam were no different than they were with Pharaoh or you or me. They are "all ... after the counsel of HIS OWN will" (Ephesians 1:11).

We, like Adam, make many 'choices.' But to say that these choices are 'free' from the influences of God is to say that Joseph's brothers decided "of their own free will" to sell Joseph into slavery. There is no denying that they decided to make that choice. Was that choice free? No! Not according to Joseph:

Genesis 50:20 "But as for you [Joseph's brothers], ye thought evil against me; but God meant it [their evil thoughts and choices] unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive."


This verse explains the reason "God meant" for Eve to eat of the forbidden fruit. "God meant" for Adam to become aware of the fact that he was created in a form [naked and out of the ground] that needed a Savior. The twin false doctrines of 'free will' and 'the fall of man' both deny the scriptural fact that Adam was "made [by God] subject to vanity, NOT WILLINGLY [not by choice], but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope ['After the counsel of His own will']."


Adam and Eve did not become sinful after eating, they simply became aware of the fact that they were made of dust and were naked. That is how we know that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is a shadow and a type of the law:

Romans 7:7 "What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not KNOWN sin, but BY THE LAW: for I had not KNOWN lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."


'Know' and 'known' are the same as the word 'knowledge.' So the law is also "good" because it is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It is not simply the tree of the knowledge of evil. It is "the knowledge" of both, as is the law. Both Covenants are symbolically represented in the Garden by "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" (Old - the law) and "the Tree of Life" (New - Christ).




As the verses below tell us, man had nowhere to fall:

1 Corinthians 15:46 "Howbeit that was NOT first which is spiritual, BUT that which is natural; and AFTERWARD that which is spiritual.



Pay close attention here:

1 Corinthians 15:47 THE FIRST MAN IS OF THE EARTH, earthy: the SECOND man is the Lord from heaven.
1 Corinthians 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall [not initially - but SHALL] also bear the image of the heavenly.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."




"Flesh and blood" are corruption. Adam and Eve were both created flesh and blood, totally incapable of inheriting the kingdom of God. But they (we) are in a process that will yet cause them (us) to be purified and be given a spiritual body which can and will inherit the kingdom of God.
 
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JLB

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What FALL? Neither Christ nor any of his apostles ever mention "the fall." The reason is that all the New Covenant writers understood that:

Jeremiah 18:4 "And the vessel that he made of clay was MARRED in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."

Romans 8:20 "For the creature was made [right from the hand of the Potter] subject to vanity, not willingly [not by choice, not by a 'fall'], but by reason of him [God, not by Adam's fabled 'free will'] who hath subjected the same in hope."


This is what is meant when we read:

Genesis 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

Genesis 3:19 "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."
[Adam was mere dust from the 'get-go.']


This is what we are being told when we read:

Genesis 2:25 "And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed."

Revelation 3:17 "Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked."


Do you believe these words? Or do you believe that "He created man in His image" means that man was made perfect and immortal [in the beginning], and then he fell.



The Truth of the scriptures is:

Romans 8:20 For the creature was made [right from the hand of the Potter=Creator] subject to vanity, NOT WILLINGLY [not by Adam's own 'free will'], but by reason of him [God Himself] who hath subjected the same in hope" [God's original plan was for Adam to disobey Him and come to see his corruptible nature and his need for a Savior. So God had already provided this Savior, before he ever created naked, dusty Adam.]


Here are the scriptures for the statement in brackets (above):

Revelation 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

1 Corinthians 2:7 "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory."

Ephesians 1:4 "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love."

2 Timothy 1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began."

Titus 1:2 "In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began."

1 Peter 1:19 "But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot."
1 Peter 1:20 "Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you."




God's dealings with Adam were no different than they were with Pharaoh or you or me. They are "all ... after the counsel of HIS OWN will" (Ephesians 1:11).

We, like Adam, make many 'choices.' But to say that these choices are 'free' from the influences of God is to say that Joseph's brothers decided "of their own free will" to sell Joseph into slavery. There is no denying that they decided to make that choice. Was that choice free? No! Not according to Joseph:

Genesis 50:20 "But as for you [Joseph's brothers], ye thought evil against me; but God meant it [their evil thoughts and choices] unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive."


This verse explains the reason "God meant" for Eve to eat of the forbidden fruit. "God meant" for Adam to become aware of the fact that he was created in a form [naked and out of the ground] that needed a Savior. The twin false doctrines of 'free will' and 'the fall of man' both deny the scriptural fact that Adam was "made [by God] subject to vanity, NOT WILLINGLY [not by choice], but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope ['After the counsel of His own will']."


Adam and Eve did not become sinful after eating, they simply became aware of the fact that they were made of dust and were naked. That is how we know that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is a shadow and a type of the law:

Romans 7:7 "What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not KNOWN sin, but BY THE LAW: for I had not KNOWN lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."


'Know' and 'known' are the same as the word 'knowledge.' So the law is also "good" because it is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It is not simply the tree of the knowledge of evil. It is "the knowledge" of both, as is the law. Both Covenants are symbolically represented in the Garden by "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" (Old - the law) and "the Tree of Life" (New - Christ).




As the verses below tell us, man had nowhere to fall:

1 Corinthians 15:46 "Howbeit that was NOT first which is spiritual, BUT that which is natural; and AFTERWARD that which is spiritual.



Pay close attention here:

1 Corinthians 15:47 THE FIRST MAN IS OF THE EARTH, earthy: the SECOND man is the Lord from heaven.
1 Corinthians 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall [not initially - but SHALL] also bear the image of the heavenly.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."




"Flesh and blood" are corruption. Adam and Eve were both created flesh and blood, totally incapable of inheriting the kingdom of God. But they (we) are in a process that will yet cause them (us) to be purified and be given a spiritual body which can and will inherit the kingdom of God.

26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

God created man in His Image.

Jesus Christ is the express image of God.


God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power... Hebrews 1:1-3

Jesus Christ represented what Adam was, when Adam was created, sinless.
Adam was created in the image of God, sinless!


This is what a sinless, flesh and blood human being is capable of -
and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. Matthew 17:2

This is very likely what Adam and Eve looked like, in their sinless, flesh and blood state of existence.



God did not make them sin!


JLB
 

Sinthesis

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No, that is what God is capable of. Adam and Eve did not even have clothes 'to become as white as the light' while they were sinless.
 

Free

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What FALL? Neither Christ nor any of his apostles ever mention "the fall."
Irrelevant to whether or not there was an historical occurrence which most theologians refer to as "The Fall." So what does the Bible say that would suggest a fall?

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth."
.....
Gen 1:31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day. (ESV)

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden,
Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

And of course, all of Gen 3, which culminates with this:

Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—"
Gen 3:23 therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken.
Gen 3:24 He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.

A breaking of fellowship and close relationship with God, hence, The Fall.

Rom 5:14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
Rom 5:16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.
Rom 5:17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
Rom 5:19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. (ESV)

It does not get any more clear than this. Adam's sin "led to condemnation for all men."

1Co 15:21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. (ESV)

1Ti 2:13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve;
1Ti 2:14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. (ESV)

Notice that all such passages imply that they were not sinners, they were not subject to death, they were not transgressors, until they disobeyed God in the Garden and ate of the tree which they were told not to eat from.

Osgiliath said:
Jeremiah 18:4 "And the vessel that he made of clay was MARRED in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."

Romans 8:20 "For the creature was made [right from the hand of the Potter] subject to vanity, not willingly [not by choice, not by a 'fall'], but by reason of him [God, not by Adam's fabled 'free will'] who hath subjected the same in hope."


This is what is meant when we read:

Genesis 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

Genesis 3:19 "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."
[Adam was mere dust from the 'get-go.']


This is what we are being told when we read:

Genesis 2:25 "And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed."

Revelation 3:17 "Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked."


Do you believe these words? Or do you believe that "He created man in His image" means that man was made perfect and immortal [in the beginning], and then he fell.
Of course I believe those words but they do not mean what you think they mean. Man was created in God's image, being perfect and in perfect relationship and standing with God, but through man's disobedience, we severed that relationship. Being "naked" and "formed from the dust of the ground" has nothing to do with Jer 18:4 and Rom 8:20.

Osgiliath said:
This verse explains the reason "God meant" for Eve to eat of the forbidden fruit. "God meant" for Adam to become aware of the fact that he was created in a form [naked and out of the ground] that needed a Savior. The twin false doctrines of 'free will' and 'the fall of man' both deny the scriptural fact that Adam was "made [by God] subject to vanity, NOT WILLINGLY [not by choice], but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope ['After the counsel of His own will']."
I am not going to get into a discussion on free will or any further on the fall of man, but they are both biblical doctrines.

Osgiliath said:
Adam and Eve did not become sinful after eating, they simply became aware of the fact that they were made of dust and were naked.
I have shown otherwise with the Scriptures above.

Osgiliath said:
As the verses below tell us, man had nowhere to fall:

1 Corinthians 15:46 "Howbeit that was NOT first which is spiritual, BUT that which is natural; and AFTERWARD that which is spiritual.
This says nothing of the sort.

Osgiliath said:
Pay close attention here:

1 Corinthians 15:47 THE FIRST MAN IS OF THE EARTH, earthy: the SECOND man is the Lord from heaven.
1 Corinthians 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall [not initially - but SHALL] also bear the image of the heavenly.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."




"Flesh and blood" are corruption. Adam and Eve were both created flesh and blood, totally incapable of inheriting the kingdom of God. But they (we) are in a process that will yet cause them (us) to be purified and be given a spiritual body which can and will inherit the kingdom of God.
Do you realize that your position is very close to Gnosticism?


Anyways, I will not participate further in this discussion. I came to make one simple statement, that Christ inaugurated his kingdom and is currently reigning as king.
 

JLB

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No, I am referring to what seems to be the fact that Jesus is currently the ruling king. He is currently king and nothing about that will change in the future.
Does the scripture I posted, seem to suggest that Jesus isn't King.

I said He is ruling from the highest seat of authority, right now! Here is the scripture I posted -

...as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

The right hand of God!

Do you see anything that I have written to suggest Jesus is not King, or will somehow lose His Throne.

Jesus Christ is King and will forever be King.

Hopefully that issue is settled!

There will come the time when He will return to earth-


and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. Acts 3:20-21

and again -


31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
He will sit on the throne of His glory. That Day will come soon!


If you have some scripture that contradicts what I have written, please share.


JLB
 

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Does the scripture I posted, seem to suggest that Jesus isn't King.

I said He is ruling from the highest seat of authority, right now! Here is the scripture I posted -

...as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

The right hand of God!

Do you see anything that I have written to suggest Jesus is not King, or will somehow lose His Throne.

Jesus Christ is King and will forever be King.

Hopefully that issue is settled!
Yes, I do see something you have written to suggest that Jesus is not king. This all began when I was addressing these two seemingly contradictory comments made by you:

"One day Jesus is going to sit upon His own throne in heaven and begin ruling. Hebrews 2:8 says we don't see that yet, but it is gong to happen.

He is ruling from the highest seat of authority, right now, in heaven."

You very clearly say that "One day Jesus is going to sit upon His own throne in heaven and begin ruling...we don't see that yet, but it is going to happen."

If he isn't ruling, he isn't king. If he is king, as you are now saying, then he is ruling and has a throne. It is not something that will happen, as you previously stated, it is happening now, as you now seem to be saying.
 

JLB

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Yes, I do see something you have written to suggest that Jesus is not king. This all began when I was addressing these two seemingly contradictory comments made by you:

"One day Jesus is going to sit upon His own throne in heaven and begin ruling. Hebrews 2:8 says we don't see that yet, but it is gong to happen.

He is ruling from the highest seat of authority, right now, in heaven."

You very clearly say that "One day Jesus is going to sit upon His own throne in heaven and begin ruling...we don't see that yet, but it is going to happen."

If he isn't ruling, he isn't king. If he is king, as you are now saying, then he is ruling and has a throne. It is not something that will happen, as you previously stated, it is happening now, as you now seem to be saying.

I see the problem.

Here is post 243 -

Would any disagree that the Lord's Day is when He takes the power given Him by our Father?

We read of the "Day of the LORD", "In that day", and "The Lord's day." I have a note saying this is as opposed to man's day. We read of the times of, and the fullness of the Gentiles for instance. One day Jesus is going to sit upon His own throne in heaven and begin ruling. Hebrews 2:8 says we don't see that yet, but it is gong to happen.
I copied pasted the line from it -

One day Jesus is going to sit upon His own throne in heaven and begin ruling. Hebrews 2:8 says we don't see that yet, but it is gong to happen.
And didn't cloud it in my post 244, and so it looks like it's a part of my post. :shocked!

Sorry, Totally My bad!!!

JLB
 
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