What FALL? Neither Christ nor any of his apostles ever mention "the fall."
Irrelevant to whether or not there was an historical occurrence which most theologians refer to as "The Fall." So what does the Bible say that would suggest a fall?
Gen 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth."
.....
Gen 1:31 And
God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day. (ESV)
Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "
You may surely eat of every tree of the garden,
Gen 2:17
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."
And of course, all of Gen 3, which culminates with this:
Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—"
Gen 3:23 therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken.
Gen 3:24 He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.
A breaking of fellowship and close relationship with God, hence, The Fall.
Rom 5:14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses,
even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the trespass.
For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
Rom 5:16 And the free gift
is not like the result of that one man's sin.
For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.
Rom 5:17
For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:18
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
Rom 5:19
For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. (ESV)
It does not get any more clear than this. Adam's sin "led to condemnation for all men."
1Co 15:21 For
as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For
as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. (ESV)
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve;
1Ti 2:14 and Adam was not deceived, but
the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. (ESV)
Notice that all such passages imply that they were not sinners, they were not subject to death, they were not transgressors,
until they disobeyed God in the Garden and ate of the tree which they were told not to eat from.
Osgiliath said:
Jeremiah 18:4 "And the vessel that he made of clay was MARRED in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."
Romans 8:20 "For the creature was made [right from the hand of the Potter] subject to vanity, not willingly [not by choice, not by a 'fall'], but by reason of him [God, not by Adam's fabled 'free will'] who hath subjected the same in hope."
This is what is meant when we read:
Genesis 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
Genesis 3:19 "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return." [Adam was mere dust from the 'get-go.']
This is what we are being told when we read:
Genesis 2:25 "And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed."
Revelation 3:17 "Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked."
Do you believe these words? Or do you believe that "He created man in His image" means that man was made perfect and immortal [in the beginning], and then he fell.
Of course I believe those words but they do not mean what you think they mean. Man was created in God's image, being perfect and in perfect relationship and standing with God, but through man's disobedience, we severed that relationship. Being "naked" and "formed from the dust of the ground" has nothing to do with Jer 18:4 and Rom 8:20.
Osgiliath said:
This verse explains the reason "God meant" for Eve to eat of the forbidden fruit. "God meant" for Adam to become aware of the fact that he was created in a form [naked and out of the ground] that needed a Savior. The twin false doctrines of 'free will' and 'the fall of man' both deny the scriptural fact that Adam was "made [by God] subject to vanity, NOT WILLINGLY [not by choice], but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope ['After the counsel of His own will']."
I am not going to get into a discussion on free will or any further on the fall of man, but they are both biblical doctrines.
Osgiliath said:
Adam and Eve did not become sinful after eating, they simply became aware of the fact that they were made of dust and were naked.
I have shown otherwise with the Scriptures above.
Osgiliath said:
As the verses below tell us, man had nowhere to fall:
1 Corinthians 15:46 "Howbeit that was NOT first which is spiritual, BUT that which is natural; and AFTERWARD that which is spiritual.
This says nothing of the sort.
Osgiliath said:
Pay close attention here:
1 Corinthians 15:47 THE FIRST MAN IS OF THE EARTH, earthy: the SECOND man is the Lord from heaven.
1 Corinthians 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall [not initially - but SHALL] also bear the image of the heavenly.
1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."
"Flesh and blood" are corruption. Adam and Eve were both created flesh and blood, totally incapable of inheriting the kingdom of God. But they (we) are in a process that will yet cause them (us) to be purified and be given a spiritual body which can and will inherit the kingdom of God.
Do you realize that your position is very close to Gnosticism?
Anyways, I will not participate further in this discussion. I came to make one simple statement, that Christ inaugurated his kingdom and is currently reigning as king.
