Objective vs subjective

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poetofparables

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If truth is objective and absolute then why do religious people struggle to produce the evidence of their claims. When religious people claim that they know the "Truth" isn't that in their minds an objective claim. If it is in fact an objective claim then shouldn't these religious people have a massive body of theoretical evidence to support the claims they make.
 
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I suppose it depends on what "truth" we're talking about here.
There's a lot of debate about things such as Creation, The Flood and other biblical events or testimonies of things said.
And there's debate about how we should treat other people based on love and of course believing Christ since Christ's ministry taught love as the basis for which He preached.

The bible is the story of God's pursuit of the hearts of men and certain events occurred during that epic endeavor. Statements were made and event transpired.

Some will be objective and some will be subjective. :shrug
Can I prove objectively to a person who doesn't believe I love my wife with massive amounts of evidence that I do? What evidence do I present that the unbeliever would believe as objective evidence anyway? And how can I claim objectivity concerning matters of the heart?
 
I suppose it depends on what "truth" we're talking about here.
There's a lot of debate about things such as Creation, The Flood and other biblical events or testimonies of things said.
And there's debate about how we should treat other people based on love and of course believing Christ since Christ's ministry taught love as the basis for which He preached.

The bible is the story of God's pursuit of the hearts of men and certain events occurred during that epic endeavor. Statements were made and event transpired.

Some will be objective and some will be subjective. :shrug
Can I prove to a person who doesn't believe I love my wife with massive amounts of evidence that I do? And what evidence do I present that the unbeliever would believe as evidence anyway? And how can I claim objectivity concerning matters of the heart?
So your saying that there's some objective evidence but also subjective matter in your own religion? Do you know what's what.
 
"So your saying..."
I'm not saying anything I haven't said.
The topic is vague and I'm trying to determine from you what's what.
What "truth" are you referring to?
 
"So your saying..."
I'm not saying anything I haven't said.
The topic is vague and I'm trying to determine from you what's what.
What "truth" are you referring to?
Sorry rick,

The truth claims each religion makes about the reality we live in.

Are all these claims to be known objectively like we know absolute facts, or are they to be taken with a grain of salt.
 
What claims?
Like evil spirits exist and possess people.

Like you will grow new skin after its been burnt off in hell

Like suffering is caused by desire

Like god lives on a planet called kolob
 
Only one of those may refer to the heart.
Bottom line though is that I don't think anyone will reach out to a person's heart concerning the message of Christ using those statements.
And that's my point.
I can honestly say that to believe Christ is to love Him. And to believe Him is to know Him.

BTW,
Mormons no longer believe God lives on kolob. Theirs is a "progressive revelation" based religion. In other words as God reveals things that's what they believe. It changes. So what was advocated 100 years ago isn't anymore due to ongoing revelation.
Before 1890 they believed and practiced polygamy. But in order to attain statehood they had to ditch the practice and that was revealed to them from God to do so and they got their statehood. Same thing with blacks holding the preisthoods. At one time blacks couldn't but today they can through progressive revelation.


"Like you will grow new skin after its been burnt off in hell"

Never heard of that one before.



"Like evil spirits exist and possess people."

Good spirits exist and possess people. Like the spirit of Christ indwelling the heart. Believing Him, knowing Him and loving Him.
And of course we have our own evil spirits we call the sinful nature and rebellion against God.


"Like suffering is caused by desire"

To some extent that may be true. I've known some to be absolutely miserable because they couldn't get what they want.
 
poetofparables,

Is the following an objective truth, or a subjective truth?


12 "In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets." (Matthew 7:12 NASB)


The statement itself is objective. The fulfillment of the statement is subjective and varies according to the person receiving the treatment, but never violates the objective statement itself. And that's where people get themselves in trouble--they violate objective truth with their various subjective--usually selfish--applications of the truth.
 
Only one of those may refer to the heart.
Bottom line though is that I don't think anyone will reach out to a person's heart concerning the message of Christ using those statements.
And that's my point.
I can honestly say that to believe Christ is to love Him. And to believe Him is to know Him.

BTW,
Mormons no longer believe God lives on kolob. Theirs is a "progressive revelation" based religion. In other words as God reveals things that's what they believe. It changes. So what was advocated 100 years ago isn't anymore due to ongoing revelation.
Before 1890 they believed and practiced polygamy. But in order to attain statehood they had to ditch the practice and that was revealed to them from God to do so and they got their statehood. Same thing with blacks holding the preisthoods. At one time blacks couldn't but today they can through progressive revelation.


"Like you will grow new skin after its been burnt off in hell"

Never heard of that one before.



"Like evil spirits exist and possess people."

Good spirits exist and possess people. Like the spirit of Christ indwelling the heart. Believing Him, knowing Him and loving Him.
And of course we have our own evil spirits we call the sinful nature and rebellion against God.


"Like suffering is caused by desire"

To some extent that may be true. I've known some to be absolutely miserable because they couldn't get what they want.
I'm having a good time hanging out with you rick, it's like for now this is our thread.

So, those statements I made about objective claims that religion's make, was.

1. A christian claim
2. A Muslim claim
3. A Buddhist claim
4. A Mormon claim

Now these are all truth claims about what they believe are objective things. What I ask is, how does religion intend to demonstrate these claims.
 
"Like you will grow new skin after its been burnt off in hell"

Never heard of that one before.
That's a new one to me, too.

I suppose it depends on what "truth" we're talking about here.
[...]
Some will be objective and some will be subjective. :shrug
This is true.

We can't box truth in the way we humans like to box everything up into neat little 'black or white', 'either or' categories.
 
poetofparables,

Is the following an objective truth, or a subjective truth?


12 "In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets." (Matthew 7:12 NASB)


The statement itself is objective. The fulfillment of the statement is subjective and varies according to the person receiving the treatment, but never violates the objective statement itself. And that's where people get themselves in trouble--they violate objective truth with their various subjective--usually selfish--applications of the truth.
Ah yes I think I see what you mean there.
 
That's a new one to me, too.


This is true.

We can't box truth in the way we humans like to box everything up into neat little 'black or white', 'either or' categories.
Thats why why I left religion behind, because I couldnt keep my mind free while believing that it was the only truth.
 
There is a way to discern truth:

The Bible talks a lot about wisdom--specifically, moral wisdom. Truth and wisdom go hand in hand. "Wisdom is proved right by all her children." (Luke 7:35 NIV). In other words, we can identify wise behavior by the result it produces. Truth, because it is also wise, can be discerned by the fruit it produces.

My journey to the truth of Christ started with the undeniable reality that 'evil' exists. From there I started to see and understand the reality of 'good'--which is really what the discussion of truth always comes down to. Not whether the earth was really formed in a week, or if God lives on a planet, but rather what's the truth about good and evil. You know, is good and evil objective, or subjective? That's the kind of truth we can know. Because that is the truth that matters.
 
There is a way to discern truth:

The Bible talks a lot about wisdom--specifically, moral wisdom. Truth and wisdom go hand in hand. "Wisdom is proved right by all her children." (Luke 7:35 NIV). In other words, we can identify wise behavior by the result it produces. Truth, because it is also wise, can be discerned by the fruit it produces.

My journey to the truth of Christ started with the undeniable reality that 'evil' exists. From there I started to see and understand the reality of 'good'--which is really what the discussion of truth always comes down to. Not whether the earth was really formed in a week, or if God lives on a planet, but rather what's the truth about good and evil. You know, is good and evil objective, or subjective? That's the kind of truth we can know. Because that is the truth that matters.
When I left the religion I suffered what you would call a detrimental moral gap and I thought I'd have to stay in my religion to close the gap. It was awful at first but I learned that some gaps are better open, but it takes time to get used to feeling the venerability of being open.
 
I'm guessing you mean 'religion' as in man made structures of how to know God and relate to him. If so, I know they can be a tremendous block to the very truth they claim to lead people to. And how scary it is to leave them behind after having the conscience trained and controlled by them. But I believe there is truth that can be known that can overcome the deceitfulness of man made religious attitudes and structures.
 
poetofparables said:
I'm having a good time hanging out with you rick, it's like for now this is our thread.

That's rather flattering and I appreciate the sentiment. And Jethro is doing a great job here.
I learn nothing when I talk or post. :biggrin
 
I'm guessing you mean 'religion' as in man made structures of how to know God and relate to him. If so, I know they can be a tremendous block to the very truth they claim to lead people to. And how scary it is to leave them behind after having the conscience trained and controlled by them. But I believe there is truth that can be known that can overcome the deceitfulness of man made religious attitudes and structures.
Yes as much as that is true for me in some way, I was on the same subject as you "Evil" and how to understand it and put it in the right perspective. After I left the religion I had no answer for evil to fill that gap. But I started to think how it could be resolved. Many times I returned to God out of fear of not having an answer, but finally after many years I accepted the gap, but that does not mean I stop learning about the problem of evil and accept that that gap is closed. I think it will always stay open, and that was very hard for me to accept at first. But I feel no urge to plug up the hole anymore.
 
That's rather flattering and I appreciate the sentiment. And Jethro is doing a great job here.
I learn nothing when I talk or post. :biggrin
Thank you, but don't be so hard on yourself. I gained much inspiration from what you said. It was very insightful. You're hitting on some good truth. I don't function unless I get inspired by what other people post.
 
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