Objective vs subjective

[Jethro Bodine]

After I left the religion I had no answer for evil to fill that gap. But I started to think how it could be resolved. Many times I returned to God out of fear of not having an answer, but finally after many years I accepted the gap...

We have come to two different conclusions, then. I came to the conclusion that I must stop doing evil. I would think that everybody would come to that conclusion. It's logical, it's sensible....and it's based on the truth we can all see with our own eyes and which needs no verification, no scientific proof, and so on.

 

[reba]

religions are mans plans for god
Salvation is God's plan for man.

 

[poetofparables]

We have come to two different conclusions, then. I came to the conclusion that I must stop doing evil. I would think that everybody would come to that conclusion. It's logical, it's sensible....and it's based on the truth we can all see with our own eyes and which needs no verification, no scientific proof, and so on.

Oh yes I thought deeply about evil, I didn't exclude myself from an analysis and it's implications of it.

 

[Rick W]

Nobody had to teach me to steal, to lie, to cheat, to envy, to make excuses or bear false witness against someone. I knew these things from birth. And through adulthood and experience honed those "skills" to a fine edge.
But before accepting Christ I rationalized them away because in my mind other people were doing much worse things than I was. Excuse to self can be evil in it's own right.

/Stop doing what you're doing.

/But that person over there is doing it too and a lot more besides. Why pick on me?

:D

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Oh yes I thought deeply about evil, I didn't exclude myself from an analysis and it's implications of it.

Has the reality and truth of evil led you to the reality and truth of good yet? This is in line with what Rick W was talking about in regard to a progressive revelation of truth.

I don't mean has it led you to obedience to that truth, just whether or not a revelation and understanding of good has come to you yet.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Nobody had to teach me to steal, to lie, to cheat, to envy, to make excuses or bear false witness against someone. I knew these things from birth. And through adulthood and experience honed those "skills" to a fine edge.

It seems this is where the search for truth seems to end for most people.

 

[TOG]

If truth is objective and absolute then why do religious people struggle to produce the evidence of their claims. When religious people claim that they know the "Truth" isn't that in their minds an objective claim. If it is in fact an objective claim then shouldn't these religious people have a massive body of theoretical evidence to support the claims they make.

Absolute truth isn't necessarily provable. In fact, there might, in some cases, not be any evidence that it is true. The most obvious example is these two statements:

1. God exists
2. God doesn't exist

One of those statements is absolute truth. Either God exists, or He doesn't. There is no other option. But neither of those statements can be proved. Evidence can be shown for one or the other, but that evidence can be interpreted subjectively, and so not everyone will accept the same evidence as valid. But the truth remains the same, no matter what evidence we believe or don't believe.

The TOG​

 

[Rick W]

It seems this is where the search for truth seems to end for most people.

Nobody likes to admit such things.

Come to think of it there's some things about myself I'm having trouble with. Bringing things like that into the light is one heckuva struggle.
The only solace I have is faith in Christ, that HE is faithful and that His promises are true.
Can I prove that? Probably not but then the self is the toughest to convince isn't it?

 

[poetofparables]

Nobody had to teach me to steal, to lie, to cheat, to envy, to make excuses or bear false witness against someone. I knew these things from birth. And through adulthood and experience honed those "skills" to a fine edge.
But before accepting Christ I rationalized them away because in my mind other people were doing much worse things than I was. Excuse to self can be evil in it's own right.

/Stop doing what you're doing.

/But that person over there is doing it too and a lot more besides. Why pick on me?

:biggrin

You still have to learn rick or you wont survive. Your conscience can't work independent of any knowledge.

 

[poetofparables]

Has the reality and truth of evil led you to the reality and truth of good yet? This is in line with what Rick W was talking about in regard to a progressive revelation of truth.

I don't mean has it led you to obedience to that truth, just whether or not a revelation and understanding of good has come to you yet.

Yes I did go through that, but now I see that human understanding of good and evil are imperfectly evolved human concept's that have constructed the way we see the world today. I don't see good and evil as perfect in any sense.

 

[poetofparables]

Absolute truth isn't necessarily provable. In fact, there might, in some cases, not be any evidence that it is true. The most obvious example is these two statements:

1. God exists
2. God doesn't exist

One of those statements is absolute truth. Either God exists, or He doesn't. There is no other option. But neither of those statements can be proved. Evidence can be shown for one or the other, but that evidence can be interpreted subjectively, and so not everyone will accept the same evidence as valid. But the truth remains the same, no matter what evidence we believe or don't believe.

The TOG​

Anything that exists can be proven tog, or it doesn't exist.

 

[TOG]

Anything that exists can be proven tog, or it doesn't exist.

Can you prove to us that your wife loves you? If you are not married, can you prove that your mother loves you?

The TOG​

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Nobody likes to admit such things.

Which I think is what's going on. The world that likes to claim there is no truth stops looking when they start to see it in themselves and then can't handle the truth, and then discard it and insist there is no truth to be found. They just didn't like the truth they found, so they decided that wasn't the truth. Not very scientific and logical for a world that's so bent on science and logic to prove things.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes I did go through that, but now I see that human understanding of good and evil are imperfectly evolved human concept's that have constructed the way we see the world today. I don't see good and evil as perfect in any sense.

You're making a serious error. The human understanding of good and evil is NOT the understanding of good and evil the world rejects as truth. The problem is the world is constantly redefining good and evil to suit it's own desires, not defining in an objective, scientific, rational, and logical way. That's why they think there is no truth to be found--they keep changing what is scientifically observable as truth.

 

[Jesse]

Anything that exists can be proven tog, or it doesn't exist.

Then the opposite would be true, that which doesn't exist needs to be proven that it doesn't exist. So there lies the burden of proof onto you.

The existence of God can not be disproven and you don't know if He exists or not, which leaves you guessing, using human logic to try and figure out something that you don't know how to prove or disprove.

You simply stating it does or doesn't exist doesn't change the reality nor the truthfulness of that which exists, regardless of your belief.

 

[poetofparables]

You're making a serious error. The human understanding of good and evil is NOT the understanding of good and evil the world rejects as truth. The problem is the world is constantly redefining good and evil to suit it's own desires, not defining in an objective, scientific, rational, and logical way. That's why they think there is no truth to be found--they keep changing what is scientifically observable as truth.

Its speculated that science might answer whats good or evil one day, but its still very doubtful. The world has changed some views and moral opinions, but what it has has changed radically is to abolish harmful laws that religions endorced as moral for thousands of years.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Anything that exists can be proven tog, or it doesn't exist.

Just because something is not empirically observable now doesn't mean it isn't true.

It took centuries and centuries to prove the truth that tons of steel can indeed float on water, and that tons of steel can be suspended in mid air.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It speculated that science might answer whats good or evil one day, but its still very doubtful.

10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor..." (Romans 13:10 NASB)

What is so hard to understand about that that it should not be somehow scientifically observable and verifiable, and therefore, not true?

The world has changed some views and moral opinions, but what it has has changed radically is to abolish harmful laws that religions endorced as moral for thousands of years.

Yes, radical laws abolished that actually did not support the truth they thought those laws did. But this represents the 'religion' that you say you have finally escaped. But that hardly means there is now no truth to be found. Hardly. You have come to an illogical conclusion.

 

[poetofparables]

Then the opposite would be true, that which doesn't exist needs to be proven that it doesn't exist. So there lies the burden of proof onto you.

The existence of God can not be disproven and you don't know if He exists or not, which leaves you guessing, using human logic to try and figure out something that you don't know how to prove or disprove.

You simply stating it does or doesn't exist doesn't change the reality nor the truthfulness of that which exists, regardless of your belief.

Hey jesse,

Ok well these ideas are getting paradoxical, it will be hard to rebuttle without creating another paradox. But ill try.

You cant prove something doesnt exist to prove it in fact exists. You can only prove what exists because only existing things have a existing state.

And this what I was saying, that if something exists it can be proven. If god actually exists he can be proven.

 

[poetofparables]

10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor..." (Romans 13:10 NASB)

What is so hard to understand about that that it should not be somehow scientifically observable and verifiable, and therefore, not true?



Yes, radical laws abolished that actually did not support the truth they thought those laws did. But this represents the 'religion' that you say you have finally escaped. But that hardly means there is now no truth to be found. Hardly. You have come to an illogical conclusion.

Our current understanding on science answering moral questions is very cloudy, some say yes, some say no. As for me I dont hold any view.