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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Bible Study Is the Rapture Doctrine a tool of deception?
- Thread starter HalleluYAH
- Start date
smaller
Member
smaller adding another.
Col_1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Indeed. I will readily admit that in the final division from our enemies, there will be fear and trembling, and yes, some tears involved, personally engaged, because God in Christ will in fact TRAMPLE them. But the instruments of PEACE are in fact, quite entirely overwhelming, and yes, ENRAPTURING THE SOUL.
Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
smaller
Member
We have been delivered, very certain "instruments" of war, to battle with our enemies.
1 Tim. 1
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
1 Tim. 1
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
B
Brother Mike
Guest
Those that made it through tribulation and us in Heaven will be gathered together. There will be some that do make it through the Tribulation.
your also misunderstanding Apostasia again, the scripture reads before the Son of perdition is revleaed, there will be a departing first,concerning the return of the Lord Jesus, so don't be troubled.
Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to him, we ask you not to be quickly shaken in your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, saying that the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure (Apostasia) comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,
(2Th 2:1-3)
The departure or us being taken must be first. Your reading Apostasia as it should be a Verb Parapito which means to fall aside from truth.
par-ap-ip'-to
From G3844 and G4098; to fall aside, that is, (figuratively) to apostatize: - fall away.
The Holy Spirit did not use a Verb, but a Greek Female noun which is defined by the article the coming of the Lord Jesus and our gathering unto Him.
Only those expecting him to come, are the Ones He is taking, YOU posted that scripture, now add them all up. YOU WON'T BE HERE, and you need to just get over it, and watch things unfold in Heaven with me, getting ready to come with the Lord and watch the butt kicking.
How the heck you come up with the Lord speaking about Rapture here? Your adding to the Word, which is .......... Well, we don't do that, I am going to be nice, since your still a young believer. I have seen this verse used before by the unlearned to prove there is no rapture. I'll help you, though you need to watch JLB's Post and My Post and learn something.
And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you? And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies? Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly. Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life: Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
(Eze 13:18-23)
The Warning was For the women prophets,
Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,
(Eze 13:17)
The practices was most likely taken from ancient Babylonian culture using pillows, as charms and protective trinkets.
Therefore, thus said the Lord Jehovah: Lo, I am against your pillows, With which ye are hunting there the souls of the flourishing, And I have rent them from off your arms, And have sent away the souls that ye are hunting, The souls of the flourishing (Parach).
(Eze 13:20)
Parach
The World translated Fly in the KJV, means to flourish, to spread out, to bud, to Grow. It has nothing to do with flying, though it can be a action Verb to describe a bird opening it's wings. It does not mean fly though in Hebrew.
pârach
paw-rakh'
A primitive root; to break forth as a bud, that is, bloom; generally to spread; specifically to fly (as extending the wings); figuratively to flourish: - X abroad, X abundantly, blossom, break forth (out), bud, flourish, make fly, grow, spread, spring (up).
God was talking about using divinations by these women in Pillow charms. This has nothing to do with Rapture, and you need to stop following the unlearned, and Pay attention here.
Mike.
Drew
Member
I will look into this text in a little more detail later. For the moment, I take it that you see the use of the word "fly" as rather definitively referring to a rapture of bodies into heaven. That sounds like a bit of a leap - the concept of "fly" is not always used in a strictly literal sense, at least not in English. I believe that the concept of a "rapture" only appeared about 200 years ago. That means that for 1800 years, people were reading this same Ezekiel text and not coming to the conclusion that it was describing a rapture event. This does not prove you are wrong, of course, but it does bring up the matter of how they read that particular text.
POSTSCRIPT: I just read your OP and it appears that, like me, you think the rapture concept is an error. I am a little confused, then, about what you are getting at in your latest post. Note that I have not had time to carefully read this thread - once I do that perhaps all will be clear.
Drew
Member
Not sure what your basic position is on the matter of a rapture: Do you believe that the Bible teaches that believers will, at some point, be bodily taken away from this earth? I don't believe the Bible teaches this.
Drew
Member
Refreshing answer. Perhaps some questions do not have clear answers and the best thing is to remain open to a range of possibilities.
LOL!!!
That is truly funny!!
Apostasy is clearly a religious departing from the faith, because people turn away from faith in Christ, to the false christ.
The revealing of the man of sin must come before the Day of Christ.
The man of sin, false christ comes before Jesus comes to gather His people.
Plain and simple!
JLB
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HalleluYAH
Member
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away (apostasy) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition (Satan, playing his role as the anti-Christ, instead of Christ in the Greek);
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
The clearly teaches that those who are alive and remain will be caught up together, with those who have fallen asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
Paul reiterates this truth to the Corinthian Church.
49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
1 Corinthians 15:49-54
JLB
Drew
Member
It says what it says. But it need not necessarily be read as a statement about believers being physically transported to heaven.
Here is the first of a three part post, providing the arguments against rapture theology as provided by English theologian NT Wright:
The American obsession with the second coming of Jesus — especially with distorted interpretations of it — continues unabated. Seen from my side of the Atlantic, the phenomenal success of the Left Behind books appears puzzling, even bizarre[1]. Few in the U.K. hold the belief on which the popular series of novels is based: that there will be a literal “rapture” in which believers will be snatched up to heaven, leaving empty cars crashing on freeways and kids coming home from school only to find that their parents have been taken to be with Jesus while they have been “left behind.” This pseudo-theological version of Home Alone has reportedly frightened many children into some kind of (distorted) faith.
This dramatic end-time scenario is based (wrongly, as we shall see) on Paul’s First Letter to the Thessalonians, where he writes: “For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of an archangel and the trumpet of God. The dead in Christ will rise first; then we, who are left alive, will be snatched up with them on clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord” (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).
What on earth (or in heaven) did Paul mean?
....stand by for more.
Drew
Member
2nd part from NT Wright:
It is Paul who should be credited with creating this scenario. Jesus himself, as I have argued in various books, never predicted such an event[2]. The gospel passages about “the Son of Man coming on the clouds” (Mark 13:26, 14:62, for example) are about Jesus’ vindication, his “coming” to heaven from earth. The parables about a returning king or master (for example, Luke 19:11-27) were originally about God returning to Jerusalem, not about Jesus returning to earth. This, Jesus seemed to believe, was an event within space-time history, not one that would end it forever.
The Ascension of Jesus and the Second Coming are nevertheless vital Christian doctrines[3], and I don’t deny that I believe some future event will result in the personal presence of Jesus within God’s new creation. This is taught throughout the New Testament outside the Gospels. But this event won’t in any way resemble the Left Behind account. Understanding what will happen requires a far more sophisticated cosmology than the one in which “heaven” is somewhere up there in our universe, rather than in a different dimension, a different space-time, altogether.
The New Testament, building on ancient biblical prophecy, envisages that the creator God will remake heaven and earth entirely, affirming the goodness of the old Creation but overcoming its mortality and corruptibility (e.g., Romans 8:18-27; Revelation 21:1; Isaiah 65:17, 66:22). When that happens, Jesus will appear within the resulting new world (e.g., Colossians 3:4; 1 John 3:2).
Paul’s description of Jesus’ reappearance in 1 Thessalonians 4 is a brightly colored version of what he says in two other passages, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 and Philippians 3:20-21: At Jesus’ “coming” or “appearing,” those who are still alive will be “changed” or “transformed” so that their mortal bodies will become incorruptible, deathless. This is all that Paul intends to say in Thessalonians, but here he borrows imagery—from biblical and political sources—to enhance his message. Little did he know how his rich metaphors would be misunderstood two millennia later.
...one more coming.
It is Paul who should be credited with creating this scenario. Jesus himself, as I have argued in various books, never predicted such an event[2]. The gospel passages about “the Son of Man coming on the clouds” (Mark 13:26, 14:62, for example) are about Jesus’ vindication, his “coming” to heaven from earth. The parables about a returning king or master (for example, Luke 19:11-27) were originally about God returning to Jerusalem, not about Jesus returning to earth. This, Jesus seemed to believe, was an event within space-time history, not one that would end it forever.
The Ascension of Jesus and the Second Coming are nevertheless vital Christian doctrines[3], and I don’t deny that I believe some future event will result in the personal presence of Jesus within God’s new creation. This is taught throughout the New Testament outside the Gospels. But this event won’t in any way resemble the Left Behind account. Understanding what will happen requires a far more sophisticated cosmology than the one in which “heaven” is somewhere up there in our universe, rather than in a different dimension, a different space-time, altogether.
The New Testament, building on ancient biblical prophecy, envisages that the creator God will remake heaven and earth entirely, affirming the goodness of the old Creation but overcoming its mortality and corruptibility (e.g., Romans 8:18-27; Revelation 21:1; Isaiah 65:17, 66:22). When that happens, Jesus will appear within the resulting new world (e.g., Colossians 3:4; 1 John 3:2).
Paul’s description of Jesus’ reappearance in 1 Thessalonians 4 is a brightly colored version of what he says in two other passages, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 and Philippians 3:20-21: At Jesus’ “coming” or “appearing,” those who are still alive will be “changed” or “transformed” so that their mortal bodies will become incorruptible, deathless. This is all that Paul intends to say in Thessalonians, but here he borrows imagery—from biblical and political sources—to enhance his message. Little did he know how his rich metaphors would be misunderstood two millennia later.
...one more coming.
Drew
Member
3rd (and last part) from NT Wright:
First, Paul echoes the story of Moses coming down the mountain with the Torah. The trumpet sounds, a loud voice is heard, and after a long wait Moses comes to see what’s been going on in his absence.
Second, he echoes Daniel 7, in which “the people of the saints of the Most High” (that is, the “one like a son of man”) are vindicated over their pagan enemy by being raised up to sit with God in glory. This metaphor, applied to Jesus in the Gospels, is now applied to Christians who are suffering persecution.
Third, Paul conjures up images of an emperor visiting a colony or province. The citizens go out to meet him in open country and then escort him into the city. Paul’s image of the people “meeting the Lord in the air” should be read with the assumption that the people will immediately turn around and lead the Lord back to the newly remade world.
Paul’s mixed metaphors of trumpets blowing and the living being snatched into heaven to meet the Lord are not to be understood as literal truth, as the Left Behind series suggests, but as a vivid and biblically allusive description of the great transformation of the present world of which he speaks elsewhere.
Paul’s misunderstood metaphors present a challenge for us: How can we reuse biblical imagery, including Paul’s, so as to clarify the truth, not distort it? And how can we do so, as he did, in such a way as to subvert the political imagery of the dominant and dehumanizing empires of our world? We might begin by asking, What view of the world is sustained, even legitimized, by the Left Behind ideology? How might it be confronted and subverted by genuinely biblical thinking? For a start, is not the Left Behind mentality in thrall to a dualistic view of reality that allows people to pollute God’s world on the grounds that it’s all going to be destroyed soon? Wouldn’t this be overturned if we recaptured Paul’s wholistic vision of God’s whole creation?
First, Paul echoes the story of Moses coming down the mountain with the Torah. The trumpet sounds, a loud voice is heard, and after a long wait Moses comes to see what’s been going on in his absence.
Second, he echoes Daniel 7, in which “the people of the saints of the Most High” (that is, the “one like a son of man”) are vindicated over their pagan enemy by being raised up to sit with God in glory. This metaphor, applied to Jesus in the Gospels, is now applied to Christians who are suffering persecution.
Third, Paul conjures up images of an emperor visiting a colony or province. The citizens go out to meet him in open country and then escort him into the city. Paul’s image of the people “meeting the Lord in the air” should be read with the assumption that the people will immediately turn around and lead the Lord back to the newly remade world.
Paul’s mixed metaphors of trumpets blowing and the living being snatched into heaven to meet the Lord are not to be understood as literal truth, as the Left Behind series suggests, but as a vivid and biblically allusive description of the great transformation of the present world of which he speaks elsewhere.
Paul’s misunderstood metaphors present a challenge for us: How can we reuse biblical imagery, including Paul’s, so as to clarify the truth, not distort it? And how can we do so, as he did, in such a way as to subvert the political imagery of the dominant and dehumanizing empires of our world? We might begin by asking, What view of the world is sustained, even legitimized, by the Left Behind ideology? How might it be confronted and subverted by genuinely biblical thinking? For a start, is not the Left Behind mentality in thrall to a dualistic view of reality that allows people to pollute God’s world on the grounds that it’s all going to be destroyed soon? Wouldn’t this be overturned if we recaptured Paul’s wholistic vision of God’s whole creation?
B
Brother Mike
Guest
A Greek Female noun can not describe by itself the connection it's referring to. It has to be defined in the Article, or the Male noun following.
Such as:
Wedding. Who's Wedding?
Door. Door to what? Where?
Depart: Depart with who, or from what?
Faith: Faith in who, or what?
If Paul said the Church shall Apostasia from the truth, then you have a case like it was used in Acts. You have no case, and I gave you the Greek verb you need. The departure is the gathering from the coming of the Lord Jesus.... "BEFORE" the Son of Perdition is revealed.
Your trying to turn Apostasia into a Verb describing an action, and I gave you the Verb the Holy Spirit would have used in the Greek.
Apostasia means to depart from a previous held position, Used in Acts to describe departing from Moses, which Moses would be the Greek Male noun used to find out what Apostasia was separating from.
A Word expert as yourself should already have these simple rules of Greek language understood.
Paul also did not believe the Church would fall aside, He wrote that the Lord would present his Church without spot or wrinkle, and the Church would be cleaned by the Washing of the Word. Jesus said the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against the Church.
So, Apostasia means to depart, and we depart with the Lord Jesus before the Son of Perdition is revealed, Apostasia made up of the same Greek words we get divorce, which none of the root Words mean to leave what is true.
Might as well get packed, your coming with me.
Mike
He also wrote:
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, (ESV)
I don't see how you can get that from the text nor can I find any who agree with either your understanding of it or your definition of apostasia. Several translations use "rebellion," which makes sense as it seems connected to "the man of lawlessness" being revealed.
Looking at the context:
2Th 2:1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,
2Th 2:2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, (ESV)
If we look at what the bolded and underlined portions tells us, it seems that apostasia cannot at all be referring to being gathered to the Lord, since that gathering won't happen until after the apostasia occurs.
Mike,A Greek Female noun can not describe by itself the connection it's referring to. It has to be defined in the Article, or the Male noun following.
Such as:
Wedding. Who's Wedding?
Door. Door to what? Where?
Depart: Depart with who, or from what?
Faith: Faith in who, or what?
If Paul said the Church shall Apostasia from the truth, then you have a case like it was used in Acts. You have no case, and I gave you the Greek verb you need. The departure is the gathering from the coming of the Lord Jesus.... "BEFORE" the Son of Perdition is revealed.
Your trying to turn Apostasia into a Verb describing an action, and I gave you the Verb the Holy Spirit would have used in the Greek.
Apostasia means to depart from a previous held position, Used in Acts to describe departing from Moses, which Moses would be the Greek Male noun used to find out what Apostasia was separating from.
A Word expert as yourself should already have these simple rules of Greek language understood.
Paul also did not believe the Church would fall aside, He wrote that the Lord would present his Church without spot or wrinkle, and the Church would be cleaned by the Washing of the Word. Jesus said the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against the Church.
So, Apostasia means to depart, and we depart with the Lord Jesus before the Son of Perdition is revealed, Apostasia made up of the same Greek words we get divorce, which none of the root Words mean to leave what is true.
Might as well get packed, your coming with me.
Mike
your use of the word apostasia is very unconvincing.
I can't find anything anywhere that agrees with you.
You have to do better than that.
I tend to agree with this as it seems to make the most sense of numerous passages regarding the end. And, of course, I strongly agree with the last few sentences here and how an incorrect view can substantially change how one views and interacts with our world (I suspect Canada's PM is given to this kind of thinking).
The revealing of the man of sin must come before the Day of Christ.
2Th_2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Seems to me Jesus is speak here of Judas..
Okay, so now you want to change everything!