Bible Study Is the Rapture Doctrine a tool of deception?

[Free]

Some will depart from faith, and will continue to do so. If waiting for some to depart from faith is the case, then the Son of Perdition has come and gone. That makes you a Preterist. The Church will not depart from Faith, and it will be Strong in the End. What leaves is not considered part of the Church anyway.

Paul clearly says that some will depart from the faith. He also says, as is given in another thread, that some will shipwreck their faith. While this does happen on a regular basis, the passage in question can be understood to be saying that there will be one great final apostasy, which could be beginning now with churches and theologians giving into the secular celebration of gay marriage.

Apostasia made up of two Greek Words. apo and histasthai .

Histasthai means to stand.
Apo means to depart or move away from.

apostasion Means to divorce from, separate.

Both denote a physical action, unlike the Verb Parapipto which is a Mental, spiritual action Verb (Not Physical) to fall from truth or the English Apostasy.

There is nothing in Apostasia in any of it's root meanings that mean to leave the truth, or go in Error. You have to make that up so it says what you want it to say. It's not in the Greek though at all.

So, Looking at the context of how the Greek Female noun is used.

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means,except there come a falling away first (Physical departure from), and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
(2Th 2:1-3)

As you can see, the subject is being gathered together, and the departure must come first, then the Son of perdition is revealed. The Subject of the whole chapter is the coming of the Lord Jesus, the departure, and what the Son of Perdition will be doing.

Even if Apostasia being a Greek Female noun meant leaving the truth, then it would target the following Greek Title of the Son of Perdition.
Meaning, many will leave the Son of Perditions Truth as that is How Greek Female nouns are used.

In this case the Article is used and the known subject of Jesus coming and Leaving with Him, we know what depart from means.

If You want the Real Greek meanings and not the dictionary on how folks think they might be used, then use the Strongs Word Studies.

646apostasía (from 868/aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from575/apó, "away from" and 2476/histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previousstanding."

It means leaving a place once stood, and a Greek Female noun can not determine what it left unless it's followed by the Male noun or in the Article as being understood.



If Strongs won't above, and me breaking down the Root of the Word, and pointing out that A Greek Female noun can't be read the way Post tribbers want to read it and change the language, then You won't be convinced as your smarter than me or Strongs.

Mike.

As per e-Sword:

Thayer:

apostasia
Thayer Definition:
1) a falling away, defection, apostasy

Strong:

apostasia
ap-os-tas-ee'-ah
Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”): - falling away, forsake.

As per Strong's Exhaustive Concordance:

apostasia

turning away, rebellion, abandonment, apostasy


Despite your protests, the definition you give simply does not fit the context, as I pointed out and which you did not address. It could be referring to either a religious or political rebellion but it cannot mean Jesus coming and believers leaving with him.

2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, (ESV)

What day is Paul speaking of that "will not come, unless the rebellion comes first"?

2Th 2:2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. (ESV)

It's the "day of the Lord." What will happen on "the day of the Lord"?

2Th 2:1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, (ESV)

Jesus comes and believers are "gathered together to him."

So we can see that the apostasia must happen prior to the coming of Jesus and the gathering together of believers to him. What your definition effectively gives us is this:

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him...let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless we are gathered together with him first...".

I'm not sure how you think that makes sense. How can our gathering together with Jesus not happen until we are first gathered together with Jesus?

Everything disagrees with you--every translation, Strong's, Thayer's, and the context.

 

[smaller]

Paul clearly says that some will depart from the faith. He also says, as is given in another thread, that some will shipwreck their faith. While this does happen on a regular basis, the passage in question can be understood to be saying that there will be one great final apostasy, which could be beginning now with churches and theologians giving into the secular celebration of gay marriage.

The Law of God is meant to "empower" sin.

Romans 7:13
Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Do we see this REVERSE power in homosexuality? Yes, and of course. It is by the power of the law NOT to do so, that this sinfulness in men, arises to show itself, openly.

1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Want to see even more homosexuality? Hold up the LAW against it, and WATCH IT proliferate before your own eyes!

THIS is the ADVERSE POWER of God that operates in the "world" of the spiritually blinded.

 

[Sinthesis]

Apostle and apostasy seem to have the same root. Interesting then to consider a possibly true meaning of one who is an Apostle of Christ. One separated physically from The Lord, but not spiritually. One sent out by/from The Lord into the world as His surrogate body to gather believers together. In this case an apostasy would be positive.

 

[smaller]

Apostle and apostasy seem to have the same root. Interesting then to consider a possibly true meaning of one who is an Apostle of Christ. One separated physically from The Lord, but not spiritually. One sent out by/from The Lord into the world as His surrogate body to gather believers together. In this case an apostasy would be positive.

Few see the "end game" in that way, but YES, that is exactly the intentions of God in Christ.

Hebrews 11:7
By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

IF Christ is within any person, then they will see as He Sees, and Do as He Did:

John 7:7
The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

Did John the Apostle see the same thing, in the same identical way? YES.

1 John 5:19
And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

Anyone seeking to save a world that lieth in wickedness, should perhaps have their sights adjusted.

John 12:25
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

John 17:6
I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

John 17:16
They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Romans 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

1 Corinthians 2:12
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Galatians 1:4
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

James 4:4
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

 

[Brother Mike]

Paul clearly says that some will depart from the faith. He also says, as is given in another thread, that some will shipwreck their faith. While this does happen on a regular basis, the passage in question can be understood to be saying that there will be one great final apostasy, which could be beginning now with churches and theologians giving into the secular celebration of gay marriage.


As per e-Sword:

Thayer:

apostasia
Thayer Definition:
1) a falling away, defection, apostasy

Strong:

apostasia
ap-os-tas-ee'-ah
Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”): - falling away, forsake.

As per Strong's Exhaustive Concordance:

apostasia

turning away, rebellion, abandonment, apostasy


Despite your protests, the definition you give simply does not fit the context, as I pointed out and which you did not address. It could be referring to either a religious or political rebellion but it cannot mean Jesus coming and believers leaving with him.

2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, (ESV)

What day is Paul speaking of that "will not come, unless the rebellion comes first"?

2Th 2:2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. (ESV)

It's the "day of the Lord." What will happen on "the day of the Lord"?

2Th 2:1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, (ESV)

Jesus comes and believers are "gathered together to him."

So we can see that the apostasia must happen prior to the coming of Jesus and the gathering together of believers to him. What your definition effectively gives us is this:

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him...let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless we are gathered together with him first...".

I'm not sure how you think that makes sense. How can our gathering together with Jesus not happen until we are first gathered together with Jesus?

Everything disagrees with you--every translation, Strong's, Thayer's, and the context.

646apostasía (from 868/aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from575/apó, "away from" and2476/histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previousstanding."

I gave you the Strongs "Word studies" It means to leave from a previous standing.

Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,
(2Th 2:3)

Since it's a female noun, it can't tell you what it's departing from. They departed (Apostasia) from Christ Teachings. That would be to leave the truth.

The KJV English phrase "falling away", in 2 Thess. 2:3, is the one Greek word "apostasia", and its basic meaning is to "depart from" or "go away". The Greek word "Apostasia" is a compound of two Greek words: "Apo" = "to move away", "stasis" means "standing or state", or "to stand".

I gave you the compound words that make up the Word, and none mean leave the truth on their own without the Article, or following Male noun.

I gave the Strong Word study.

The Holy Spirit did not use the Word that way in Hebrews Chapter 6, and it should have been a verb in Thess to get it to say what you want.

The Word was translated Departure before the KJV. Greek secular scholars say it means to depart from.

Dr. Kenneth S. Wuest, LL. D., (Doctor of Laws), a noted Greek scholar, New Testament translator, Greek word-study author and professor, adds further contextual support for taking apostasia as a physical departure. He notes apostasia of which Paul is speaking (verse 3), precedes the revelation of antichrist in his true identity, and that which holds him back (verse 6) also precedes his revelation. The apostasia, therefore, cannot be either a general apostasy in Christendom, nor can it be the particular apostasy which is the result of his activities in making himself the alone object of worship. Furthermore, that which holds back his revelation (verse 3) is vitally connected with verse 7, He who holds back the same event. Dr. Wuest is driven to the inescapable conclusion that the apostasia in verse 3 refers to the removal of the Church which precedes the Day of the Lord (Second Coming), and holds back the revelation of the Man of Sin who ushers in the world-aspect of that period.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

These Greek Scholars must be wrong. Because if they are not wrong, then there is a rapture before the Son of Perdition is revealed.
The KJV changed the Word to Falling Away, which is still correct if you remember we are being gathered together by the Lord Jesus as the main topic of the Article.

Dr. Allan A. MacRae, Ph.D., a noted Greek scholar and translator, and president of theology schools, speaks of the striking parallel between verse 3 of 2 Thess 2, and verses 7-8. Verse 3 mentions the departure of the Church as coming first, and then tells of the revealing of the man of lawlessness. In verses 7 and 8 we find the identical sequence. Verse 7 tells of the removal of the Church; verse 8 says: "And then shall that lawless one be revealed." Thus close examination of the passage shows an inner unity and coherence, if we take the word apostasia in its general sense of "departure," while a superficial examination would easily lead to an erroneous interpretation as "falling away" because of the proximity of the mention of the "man of sin."

Since you don't want to believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, then you just have to say your right, and everyone else is Wrong. You have to misuse a Greek Female noun, which means to depart from, and can't in the Greek define on it's own what it departed from, you have to just forget the differences in the 3 Greek Nouns, and ignore them. Have at it, I won't though.

Tyndal: 1534
Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion
(2Th 2:3)

Geneva 1587
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,
(2Th 2:3)

Web
2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,

Mike.

 

[Brother Mike]

Apostle and apostasy seem to have the same root. Interesting then to consider a possibly true meaning of one who is an Apostle of Christ. One separated physically from The Lord, but not spiritually. One sent out by/from The Lord into the world as His surrogate body to gather believers together. In this case an apostasy would be positive.

Never looked at it like that. Apo means to move away, or send away? As in Sent out ones? Good point.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Falling away from the faith.

That's what this word means.

The man of sin comes first...


Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed..,

Clearly the Day of Christ will not come unless the man of sin is revealed first.

This man of sin will be destroyed by Jesus Himself, when He comes.

First comes the man of sin who is revealed when he goes to the Temple, proclaiming himself as God by working lying signs and wonders.

Then when the Lord Jesus returns, He will destroy Him by the brightness of Hos coming.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
2 Thessalonians 2:8

The brightness of His coming (parousia) destroys the man of sin.

His parousia (coming) will not be invisible but actually be BRIGHT, so bright in fact that it will destroy the man of sin.

How can His Coming (parousia) occur before the man of sin is revealed?????


JLB

You shouldn't argue with Mike.
He knows everything.
Just ask him, he'll tell you so.

 

[reba]

sheesh guys play nice

 

[HalleluYAH]

sheesh guys play nice

Seldom will you open a closed mind, no matter how right, or how wrong you are. Therefore, I think it's better, and much less upsetting, to just state your point of view and to let it go at that.

 

[reba]

I agree, this guys are old buddies and they get edgie with one another every so often...

 

[JLB]

How the heck can it mean fall away from faith.

Paul said, there will be a falling away first. Apostasia.

Falling away from what JLB? Its a Greek Female Noun that means depart from where stood. I even gave you the Strong word Study on what the Word is made up of, and what it means. There is nothing in the Word that means fall away from truth, or faith. ZERO.

Paul also did not say in those anything about falling away from what. Like Free, you make that up and say it's falling away from faith, but that is not even in the scripture either.

We are being gathered by the Lord Jesus, we are departing with Him, so Paul used the Correct Word Apostasia, which means to depart physically from where someone once stood.


Look at this Verse
If they shall fall away, parapiptō to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
(Heb 6:6)

Here we have the Verb Parapipto, which means to spiritually go aside into error. We are even told we can't renew them again to repentance. Parapipto is the Word you need in Thess to make it say what you want it to say, not a Female noun.

I gave you the strongs Definition. I broke the Word down, I told you who we are departing with. When you don't translate properly and ignore Greek Words you can make it say whatever you want. This is the same thought pattern of those who tell people there is no Eternal punishment. It's twisting scriptures, and thinking the Holy Spirit is using wrong words.

Aionios some have twisted to their own destruction, saying it's not a Greek Adjective, but means the Same as the Noun Aion. They remove hell to their own hurt.

Don't be like them, if the Holy Spirit meant Parapipto which means Apostasy, then the Holy Spirit would have used the Verb. Paul does not say falling away from what, you have to add to scriptures saying that means away from faith, and it's not even in there.

If Paul said that day won't come, until many depart from Jesus, then you have Apostasia, and you have what it departs from. Paul did not say that though.

Geneva 1587
Nowe we beseech you, brethren, by the comming of our Lord Iesus Christ, and by our assembling vnto him,
(2Th 2:1)
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,
(2Th 2:3)

We are assembled unto Him, and depart first then the Son of Perdition is revealed. Why?

And nowe ye knowe what withholdeth that he might be reueiled in his time. For the mysterie of iniquitie doeth already worke: onely he which nowe withholdeth, shall let till he be taken out of the way. And then shall that wicked man be reueiled, whome the Lorde shall consume with the Spirit of his mouth, and shall abolish with the brightnes of his comming,
(2Th 2:6-8)

The Lord has to remove his Body, "BEFORE" the wicked one can be revealed. The Church can not be here, for Satan to operate at full capacity, and no restraint. We being here are the Light of the World, and where sin abounds, Grace abounds more until the Light is removed.

We are not here.

Mike.

I see you waving your arms and jumping up and down, trying your best to distract attention away from the reality of the truth.

Hey everybody, don't worry about the 2000 lb Gorilla in the room, look over here at this "greek female noun", as if that is supposed to explain away the truth.

Please address what I posted, brother.

The man of sin will come first and be revealed by presenting himself as God in the Temple, then after he has deceived and persuaded the masses to follow him as the messiah through lying signs and wonders, he will be destroyed by the brightness of the Coming [parousia] of the Lord Jesus.

The Coming of the Lord happens after the man of sin is revealed.

Anytime you see the word coming [parousia] of the Lord it is associated with AFTER the man of sin is revealed, because it is the brightness of His Coming [parousia] that destroys the man of sin.

Coming [parousia] of the Lord = after the man of sin is revealed

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3


Anytime we see the phrase "Coming [Parousia] of the Lord", it is associated with after the man of sin is revealed.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

This scripture refers to the coming [parousia] of the Lord, which is after the man of sin is revealed.

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31

This scripture refers to the coming [parousia] of the Lord, which is after the man of sin is revealed.



Your "word study" on apostasy or falling away, is probably the most deceitful twisting of scripture I have ever witnessed by another Christian.

Falling away = Apostasia - Strong's Number: 646
Definition

1. a falling away, defection, apostasy

King James Word Usage - Total: 2 to forsake + (575)&version=kjv 1, falling away 1



Apostasion - Strong's Number: 647

Definition

1. divorce, repudiation
2. a bill of divorce

JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

I see you waving your arms and jumping up and down, trying your best to distract attention away from the reality of the truth.

Hey everybody, don't worry about the 2000 lb Gorilla in the room, look over here at this "greek female noun", as if that is supposed to explain away the truth.

Please address what I posted, brother.

The man of sin will come first and be revealed by presenting himself as God in the Temple, then after he has deceived and persuaded the masses to follow him as the messiah through lying signs and wonders, he will be destroyed by the brightness of the Coming [parousia] of the Lord Jesus.

The Coming of the Lord happens after the man of sin is revealed.

Anytime you see the word coming [parousia] of the Lord it is associated with AFTER the man of sin is revealed, because it is the brightness of His Coming [parousia] that destroys the man of sin.

Coming [parousia] of the Lord = after the man of sin is revealed

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3


Anytime we see the phrase "Coming [Parousia] of the Lord", it is associated with after the man of sin is revealed.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

This scripture refers to the coming [parousia] of the Lord, which is after the man of sin is revealed.

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31

This scripture refers to the coming [parousia] of the Lord, which is after the man of sin is revealed.



Your "word study" on apostasy or falling away, is probably the most deceitful twisting of scripture I have ever witnessed by another Christian.

Falling away = Apostasia - Strong's Number: 646
Definition

1. 
   
   
   • a falling away, defection, apostasy

King James Word Usage - Total: 2 to forsake + (575)&version=kjv 1, falling away 1



Apostasion - Strong's Number: 647

Definition

1. 
   
   
   • divorce, repudiation
   • a bill of divorce

JLB

Well, thank you for pointing out that nothing in the Root of Apostasia means to fall away from the truth. I am glad you have that sorted.

It Also proves despite all the novices out there fighting for pre or post trib, there are only Three Key Places that change the whole thing between the two doctrines, One is where the Eagles Gather, very hard for both sides to agree on what that means, How Apostasia is translated, and Jesus in Matt 24 about Moses. All the rest don't really matter.

Once again though You have circular logic in Assuming the Lord comes once, so since you don't believe He comes to take the Church, then You conclude it's AT HIS Coming the Son of Perdition is destroyed by his brightness. You Ignore the Part about the Body of the Lord holding back His coming though as He can't operate on a Earth full of Holy Spirit Filled believers.

Now I know you Understand the power of the anointing, and why that is.

So that is circular logic because you only Plug in Jesus coming in the clouds and sets down on earth with His believers for the battle. You don't included in that Logic the possibility we are rescued from the Trumpets and vials then come with Him to destroy the bad guy.
.
Assuming one thing is true, (Jesus only comes once) does not make something else true. That is how evolution is made to look true, and we know that's not right

Might as well get ready to ummm. "Fly Away" as they say in a stupid way, with me, to watch the action unfold from above.

 

[Drew]

It doesn't say transported to heaven.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:17

The phrase is caught up in the air...

Of course the phrase is caught up in the air - no one is denying that. What I, and many others would deny is that this is to be taken literally. As has been argued, I believe this is a metaphor.

Please, oh please, don't tell me that every statement in the Bible is to be taken literally. If we need to have that debate, this is a hopeless discussion.

Jesus tells Caiaphus that he (Caiaphus) will see Jesus "coming on the clouds". Do you believe that Caiaphus will look out of the window and see Jesus riding on a cloud?

Of course not. Jesus is invoking an extended metaphor from Daniel 7 in which a son of man character is raised "on the clouds" in vindication and enthronement after doing battle with the four beasts.

 

[turnorburn]

Who or what is this beast in..

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

tob

 

[JLB]

Of course the phrase is caught up in the air - no one is denying that. What I, and many others would deny is that this is to be taken literally. As has been argued, I believe this is a metaphor.

Please, oh please, don't tell me that every statement in the Bible is to be taken literally. If we need to have that debate, this is a hopeless discussion.

Jesus tells Caiaphus that he (Caiaphus) will see Jesus "coming on the clouds". Do you believe that Caiaphus will look out of the window and see Jesus riding on a cloud?

Of course not. Jesus is invoking an extended metaphor from Daniel 7 in which a son of man character is raised "on the clouds" in vindication and enthronement after doing battle with the four beasts.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive andremain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

So the physical return of the Lord here is literal, the physical resurrection of the Dead in Christ is literal but the physical catching up of those who are alive and remain is a metaphor????

You kidding right, Drew.

Please oh please tell me your kidding???? Right?


JLB

 

[JLB]

Do you believe that Caiaphus will look out of the window and see Jesus riding on a cloud?

I absolutely believe Jesus will be seen, coming on the clouds of heaven, just as He left.

9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”
Acts 1:9-11

And again

Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matthew 24:30


JLB

 

[JLB]

Well, thank you for pointing out that nothing in the Root of Apostasia means to fall away from the truth. I am glad you have that sorted.

It Also proves despite all the novices out there fighting for pre or post trib, there are only Three Key Places that change the whole thing between the two doctrines, One is where the Eagles Gather, very hard for both sides to agree on what that means, How Apostasia is translated, and Jesus in Matt 24 about Moses. All the rest don't really matter.

Once again though You have circular logic in Assuming the Lord comes once, so since you don't believe He comes to take the Church, then You conclude it's AT HIS Coming the Son of Perdition is destroyed by his brightness. You Ignore the Part about the Body of the Lord holding back His coming though as He can't operate on a Earth full of Holy Spirit Filled believers.

Now I know you Understand the power of the anointing, and why that is.

So that is circular logic because you only Plug in Jesus coming in the clouds and sets down on earth with His believers for the battle. You don't included in that Logic the possibility we are rescued from the Trumpets and vials then come with Him to destroy the bad guy.
.
Assuming one thing is true, (Jesus only comes once) does not make something else true. That is how evolution is made to look true, and we know that's not right

Might as well get ready to ummm. "Fly Away" as they say in a stupid way, with me, to watch the action unfold from above.

The man of sin will come first and be revealed by presenting himself as God in the Temple, then after he has deceived and persuaded the masses to follow him as the messiah through lying signs and wonders, he will be destroyed by the brightness of the Coming [parousia] of the Lord Jesus.

The Coming of the Lord happens after the man of sin is revealed.

Anytime you see the word coming [parousia] of the Lord it is associated withAFTER the man of sin is revealed,because it is the brightness of His Coming [parousia] that destroys the man of sin.

Coming [parousia] of the Lord = after the man of sin is revealed

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3


Anytime we see the phrase "Coming [Parousia] of the Lord", it is associated with after the man of sin is revealed.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

This scripture refers to the coming [parousia] of the Lord, which is after the man of sin is revealed.

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Matthew 24:29-31

This scripture refers to the coming [parousia] of the Lord, which is after the man of sin is revealed.


JLB

 

[Drew]

So the physical return of the Lord here is literal, the physical resurrection of the Dead in Christ is literal but the physical catching up of those who are alive and remain is a metaphor????

You kidding right, Drew.

Please oh please tell me your kidding???? Right?


JLB

I am not kidding, of course. I have provided the argument for my view in posts 52 to 54, with post 54 addressing the "in the air" bit. Please address it.

The Bible contains both literal truth and metaphor - this appears to surprise you? Why?

 

[Drew]

I absolutely believe Jesus will be seen, coming on the clouds of heaven, just as He left.

That is not what I asked. Again:

Jesus tells Caiaphus that he (Caiaphus) will see Jesus "coming on the clouds". Do you believe that Caiaphus will look out of the window and see Jesus riding on a cloud?

A simple yes or no will be great.

 

[turnorburn]

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive andremain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

So the physical return of the Lord here is literal, the physical resurrection of the Dead in Christ is literal but the physical catching up of those who are alive and remain is a metaphor????

You kidding right, Drew.

Please oh please tell me your kidding???? Right?


JLB

i hope he's kidding, but I'm not laughing...

tob