Bible Study John Calvin's Predestination.

[Chopper]

We've been writing a lot about predestination lately. The problem with so many folk getting in on the action is, our preconceptions creep in and some of them are simply not true. I thought that it would be good to post some of Calvin's theology so at least we'll have it from the horse's mouth, so to speak.

There are folk who believe that God's foreknowledge of those who would receive His Son as their Savior was the reason, or foundation, on which He picked the Elect before the foundations of the earth were laid. Calvin rejects that notion, so I'll post some of his thoughts. I reject this notion as well.

NOTE: Calvin believes that God believes that all men are not created equal. Some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation. This highly upsets me because it simply is not true. So, I will take the liberty to change some wording to eliminate that teaching. My words will be in italics.

Calvin: "the predestination by which God adopts some to the hope of life, and not others. No man who would be thought pious ventures simply to deny; but it is greatly caviled (to raise irritating and trival objections, find fault) especially by those who make prescience (knowledge of things before they exist or happen; foreknowledge). We indeed, ascribe both prescience and predestination to God; but we say, that it is absurd to make the latter subordinate to the former."

So, Calvin did not believe that God used His foreknowledge to determine His Elect Ones who would be faithful to Him until death.

Now, lets look at some individuals that God used for His exact purpose to demonstrate His power and authority....

Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

We also have Judas....
Acts1:16 "Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
1:17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
1:19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take."

Now, the only thing that I can think of is that Calvin understood Verse 18, "and He Hardens whomever He wills" (ESV) as meaning the rest of the human race. I can't for the life of me figure out why Calvin taught that God willed some to be saved and some not to be saved. Especially when I look at John 3:16.

Because I see Scriptures like John 3:16...."For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

It's the whosoever that caused me to reject Calvin's idea that God chose some to be lost that prompted me to establish the "General Call of the Gospel"

I see three classes of people who are called by Almighty God to fulfill His purposes.
1. The Elect, are those Who God predetermined to be saved at some point in their lives, believe in Jesus, the Christ of God the Father, and follow Jesus with obedience to His Commands all their lives until the end.
2. The Pharaoh's are the ones that Satan is allowed to use to object to the working of God's will, or to, in Judas' case, betray Jesus to His death.
3. The General Call Believers who come to Jesus and believe by faith in His death, burial, and resurrection for their Salvation. The Evangelist is called by God to spread the Gospel world wide.

Well folks, these are my thoughts and theology as I understand the supernatural working of Almighty God the Father, His Son Christ Jesus, and God the Holy Spirit, at this present time. I'm always open to change as revelation from the Scriptures comes to me by the great and powerful Holy Spirit of God the Father and His beloved Son, Christ Jesus.

 

[th1b.taylor]

We've been writing a lot about predestination lately. The problem with so many folk getting in on the action is, our preconceptions creep in and some of them are simply not true. I thought that it would be good to post some of Calvin's theology so at least we'll have it from the horse's mouth, so to speak.

There are folk who believe that God's foreknowledge of those who would receive His Son as their Savior was the reason, or foundation, on which He picked the Elect before the foundations of the earth were laid. Calvin rejects that notion, so I'll post some of his thoughts. I reject this notion as well.

NOTE: Calvin believes that God believes that all men are not created equal. Some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation. This highly upsets me because it simply is not true. So, I will take the liberty to change some wording to eliminate that teaching. My words will be in italics.

Calvin: "the predestination by which God adopts some to the hope of life, and not others. No man who would be thought pious ventures simply to deny; but it is greatly caviled (to raise irritating and trival objections, find fault) especially by those who make prescience (knowledge of things before they exist or happen; foreknowledge). We indeed, ascribe both prescience and predestination to God; but we say, that it is absurd to make the latter subordinate to the former."

So, Calvin did not believe that God used His foreknowledge to determine His Elect Ones who would be faithful to Him until death.

Now, lets look at some individuals that God used for His exact purpose to demonstrate His power and authority....

Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

We also have Judas....
Acts1:16 "Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
1:17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
1:19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take."

Now, the only thing that I can think of is that Calvin understood Verse 18, "and He Hardens whomever He wills" (ESV) as meaning the rest of the human race. I can't for the life of me figure out why Calvin taught that God willed some to be saved and some not to be saved. Especially when I look at John 3:16.

Because I see Scriptures like John 3:16...."For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

It's the whosoever that caused me to reject Calvin's idea that God chose some to be lost that prompted me to establish the "General Call of the Gospel"

I see three classes of people who are called by Almighty God to fulfill His purposes.
1. The Elect, are those Who God predetermined to be saved at some point in their lives, believe in Jesus, the Christ of God the Father, and follow Jesus with obedience to His Commands all their lives until the end.
2. The Pharaoh's are the ones that Satan is allowed to use to object to the working of God's will, or to, in Judas' case, betray Jesus to His death.
3. The General Call Believers who come to Jesus and believe by faith in His death, burial, and resurrection for their Salvation. The Evangelist is called by God to spread the Gospel world wide.

Well folks, these are my thoughts and theology as I understand the supernatural working of Almighty God the Father, His Son Christ Jesus, and God the Holy Spirit, at this present time. I'm always open to change as revelation from the Scriptures comes to me by the great and powerful Holy Spirit of God the Father and His beloved Son, Christ Jesus.

This should be a lively discussion if all remain civil. You already know I stand where you stand on this.

 

[brother Paul]

As the Spirit saith regarding those who reject God (Romans 1) he gives them over to a reprobate mind...

His doing so (like His hardening) is related to THEIR rejection of God and the knowledge of God...if one takes into account the whole revealed council of God (and He is not a man that He would lie) we see He does not create them to be reprobate (then their rejection is His fault) but it is of them therefor they are without excuse. Just like when He sends a lying spirit INTO the prophets for profit who are already prophecying lies in His name or when He hardens Pharoahs heart which already was hardened against the Isrealites.

IMHO when Calvin says in "Institutes," Book III, chapter 23,

"....Not all men are created with similar destiny but eternal life is foreordained for some, and eternal damnation for others. Every man, therefore, being created for one or the other of these ends, we say, he is predestined either to life or to death."

he is saying that the damned person is created damned and thus taken to its logical conclusion the pre-cursive temptation to which that one fell as well as their inability to resist in any way and even the subsequent sin they performed is all God's doing....thus God becomes the author of ALL sin, sickness, and death and when He reveals Satan did this He is lying and blaming someone else for His own doing of that He confesses He hates and yet the reason is attributed to His own purpose and good pleasure according to Calvin (thus God taking pleasure in that which He finds abominable...God forbid we even consider this).

Thus the scripture which says God tempts no man would be a lie as well as the one which says the Lord wills that all men everywhere repent and so on for about 70 or so more passages...

In the end this position led Calvin and his immediate cohorts to assume their election and become judge, jury, and executioner of any who dissented or refused to accept their authority (as the true self lords thy actually displayed themselves to be....you shall know them by their fruits)...torturing them, burning them, exiling them (not at all like Jesus, but more like the self elevated middle ages Roman Catholic authorities).

IMHO we see this self elevating mentality in Militant Islam which ALSO believes every tiniest action and choice is of God pulling his puppet master strings...therefore even their rape, torture, stealing, enslavement, etc., is the will of God! God forbid!

If any feel my position on this to be uncivil please say so and I will cease to participate

 

[Chopper]

As the Spirit saith regarding those who reject God (Romans 1) he gives them over to a reprobate mind...

His doing so (like His hardening) is related to THEIR rejection of God and the knowledge of God...if one takes into account the whole revealed council of God (and He is not a man that He would lie) we see He does not create them to be reprobate (then their rejection is His fault) but it is of them therefor they are without excuse. Just like when He sends a lying spirit INTO the prophets for profit who are already prophecying lies in His name or when He hardens Pharoahs heart which already was hardened against the Isrealites.

IMHO when Calvin says in "Institutes," Book III, chapter 23,

"....Not all men are created with similar destiny but eternal life is foreordained for some, and eternal damnation for others. Every man, therefore, being created for one or the other of these ends, we say, he is predestined either to life or to death."

he is saying that the damned person is created damned and thus taken to its logical conclusion the pre-cursive temptation to which that one fell as well as their inability to resist in any way and even the subsequent sin they performed is all God's doing....thus God becomes the author of ALL sin, sickness, and death and when He reveals Satan did this He is lying and blaming someone else for His own doing of that He confesses He hates and yet the reason is attributed to His own purpose and good pleasure according to Calvin (thus God taking pleasure in that which He finds abominable...God forbid we even consider this).

Thus the scripture which says God tempts no man would be a lie as well as the one which says the Lord wills that all men everywhere repent and so on for about 70 or so more passages...

In the end this position led Calvin and his immediate cohorts to assume their election and become judge, jury, and executioner of any who dissented or refused to accept their authority (as the true self lords thy actually displayed themselves to be....you shall know them by their fruits)...torturing them, burning them, exiling them (not at all like Jesus, but more like the self elevated middle ages Roman Catholic authorities).

IMHO we see this self elevating mentality in Militant Islam which ALSO believes every tiniest action and choice is of God pulling his puppet master strings...therefore even their rape, torture, stealing, enslavement, etc., is the will of God! God forbid!

If any feel my position on this to be uncivil please say so and I will cease to participate

Very good reply there Brother Paul. I find nothing to argue with your theology. I love a lot of what Calvin had to say in his "Institutes of the Christian Religion" especially pgs. 606-613. Of course I reject his notion that God determined some to be damned.

 

[JLB]

We've been writing a lot about predestination lately. The problem with so many folk getting in on the action is, our preconceptions creep in and some of them are simply not true. I thought that it would be good to post some of Calvin's theology so at least we'll have it from the horse's mouth, so to speak.

There are folk who believe that God's foreknowledge of those who would receive His Son as their Savior was the reason, or foundation, on which He picked the Elect before the foundations of the earth were laid. Calvin rejects that notion, so I'll post some of his thoughts. I reject this notion as well.

NOTE: Calvin believes that God believes that all men are not created equal. Some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation. This highly upsets me because it simply is not true. So, I will take the liberty to change some wording to eliminate that teaching. My words will be in italics.

Calvin: "the predestination by which God adopts some to the hope of life, and not others. No man who would be thought pious ventures simply to deny; but it is greatly caviled (to raise irritating and trival objections, find fault) especially by those who make prescience (knowledge of things before they exist or happen; foreknowledge). We indeed, ascribe both prescience and predestination to God; but we say, that it is absurd to make the latter subordinate to the former."

So, Calvin did not believe that God used His foreknowledge to determine His Elect Ones who would be faithful to Him until death.

Now, lets look at some individuals that God used for His exact purpose to demonstrate His power and authority....

Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

We also have Judas....
Acts1:16 "Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
1:17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
1:19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take."

Now, the only thing that I can think of is that Calvin understood Verse 18, "and He Hardens whomever He wills" (ESV) as meaning the rest of the human race. I can't for the life of me figure out why Calvin taught that God willed some to be saved and some not to be saved. Especially when I look at John 3:16.

Because I see Scriptures like John 3:16...."For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

It's the whosoever that caused me to reject Calvin's idea that God chose some to be lost that prompted me to establish the "General Call of the Gospel"

I see three classes of people who are called by Almighty God to fulfill His purposes.
1. The Elect, are those Who God predetermined to be saved at some point in their lives, believe in Jesus, the Christ of God the Father, and follow Jesus with obedience to His Commands all their lives until the end.
2. The Pharaoh's are the ones that Satan is allowed to use to object to the working of God's will, or to, in Judas' case, betray Jesus to His death.
3. The General Call Believers who come to Jesus and believe by faith in His death, burial, and resurrection for their Salvation. The Evangelist is called by God to spread the Gospel world wide.

Well folks, these are my thoughts and theology as I understand the supernatural working of Almighty God the Father, His Son Christ Jesus, and God the Holy Spirit, at this present time. I'm always open to change as revelation from the Scriptures comes to me by the great and powerful Holy Spirit of God the Father and His beloved Son, Christ Jesus.

Hi Chopper,

I thought I would read along with what you are teaching, to learn more about Calvinism and what he taught.

I would like to ask you a question, so to clarify my understanding, as to what you believe concerning what Mr. Calvin taught.


When the Lord said to the serpent in the garden...

And I will put enmity Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.” Genesis 3:15

Do you believe this indicates that the Lord foreknew who Satan's people were, and if so, that He would also have foreknowledge who His people were as well?



JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

We've been writing a lot about predestination lately. The problem with so many folk getting in on the action is, our preconceptions creep in and some of them are simply not true. I thought that it would be good to post some of Calvin's theology so at least we'll have it from the horse's mouth, so to speak.

There are folk who believe that God's foreknowledge of those who would receive His Son as their Savior was the reason, or foundation, on which He picked the Elect before the foundations of the earth were laid. Calvin rejects that notion, so I'll post some of his thoughts. I reject this notion as well.

NOTE: Calvin believes that God believes that all men are not created equal. Some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation. This highly upsets me because it simply is not true. So, I will take the liberty to change some wording to eliminate that teaching. My words will be in italics.

Calvin: "the predestination by which God adopts some to the hope of life, and not others. No man who would be thought pious ventures simply to deny; but it is greatly caviled (to raise irritating and trival objections, find fault) especially by those who make prescience (knowledge of things before they exist or happen; foreknowledge). We indeed, ascribe both prescience and predestination to God; but we say, that it is absurd to make the latter subordinate to the former."

So, Calvin did not believe that God used His foreknowledge to determine His Elect Ones who would be faithful to Him until death.

Now, lets look at some individuals that God used for His exact purpose to demonstrate His power and authority....

Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

We also have Judas....
Acts1:16 "Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
1:17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
1:19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take."

Now, the only thing that I can think of is that Calvin understood Verse 18, "and He Hardens whomever He wills" (ESV) as meaning the rest of the human race. I can't for the life of me figure out why Calvin taught that God willed some to be saved and some not to be saved. Especially when I look at John 3:16.

Because I see Scriptures like John 3:16...."For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

It's the whosoever that caused me to reject Calvin's idea that God chose some to be lost that prompted me to establish the "General Call of the Gospel"

I see three classes of people who are called by Almighty God to fulfill His purposes.
1. The Elect, are those Who God predetermined to be saved at some point in their lives, believe in Jesus, the Christ of God the Father, and follow Jesus with obedience to His Commands all their lives until the end.
2. The Pharaoh's are the ones that Satan is allowed to use to object to the working of God's will, or to, in Judas' case, betray Jesus to His death.
3. The General Call Believers who come to Jesus and believe by faith in His death, burial, and resurrection for their Salvation. The Evangelist is called by God to spread the Gospel world wide.

Well folks, these are my thoughts and theology as I understand the supernatural working of Almighty God the Father, His Son Christ Jesus, and God the Holy Spirit, at this present time. I'm always open to change as revelation from the Scriptures comes to me by the great and powerful Holy Spirit of God the Father and His beloved Son, Christ Jesus.

I cannot accept a theology in which the God of scripture predestines anyone to hell by not predestining them to eternal life. I do not believe that is the God who so loved the world and whose will it is that all should come to repentance.

jim

 

[Chopper]

As the Spirit saith regarding those who reject God (Romans 1) he gives them over to a reprobate mind...

His doing so (like His hardening) is related to THEIR rejection of God and the knowledge of God...if one takes into account the whole revealed council of God (and He is not a man that He would lie) we see He does not create them to be reprobate (then their rejection is His fault) but it is of them therefor they are without excuse. Just like when He sends a lying spirit INTO the prophets for profit who are already prophecying lies in His name or when He hardens Pharoahs heart which already was hardened against the Isrealites.

IMHO when Calvin says in "Institutes," Book III, chapter 23,

"....Not all men are created with similar destiny but eternal life is foreordained for some, and eternal damnation for others. Every man, therefore, being created for one or the other of these ends, we say, he is predestined either to life or to death."

he is saying that the damned person is created damned and thus taken to its logical conclusion the pre-cursive temptation to which that one fell as well as their inability to resist in any way and even the subsequent sin they performed is all God's doing....thus God becomes the author of ALL sin, sickness, and death and when He reveals Satan did this He is lying and blaming someone else for His own doing of that He confesses He hates and yet the reason is attributed to His own purpose and good pleasure according to Calvin (thus God taking pleasure in that which He finds abominable...God forbid we even consider this).

Thus the scripture which says God tempts no man would be a lie as well as the one which says the Lord wills that all men everywhere repent and so on for about 70 or so more passages...

In the end this position led Calvin and his immediate cohorts to assume their election and become judge, jury, and executioner of any who dissented or refused to accept their authority (as the true self lords thy actually displayed themselves to be....you shall know them by their fruits)...torturing them, burning them, exiling them (not at all like Jesus, but more like the self elevated middle ages Roman Catholic authorities).

IMHO we see this self elevating mentality in Militant Islam which ALSO believes every tiniest action and choice is of God pulling his puppet master strings...therefore even their rape, torture, stealing, enslavement, etc., is the will of God! God forbid!

If any feel my position on this to be uncivil please say so and I will cease to participate

Very good reply there Brother Paul. I find nothing to argue with your theology. I love a lot of what Calvin had to say in his "Institutes of the Christian Religion" especially pgs. 606-613. Of course I reject his notion that God determined some to be damned.

 

[Chopper]

Hi Chopper,

I thought I would read along with what you are teaching, to learn more about Calvinism and what he taught.

I would like to ask you a question, so to clarify my understanding, as to what you believe concerning what Mr. Calvin taught.


When the Lord said to the serpent in the garden...

And I will put enmity Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.” Genesis 3:15

Do you believe this indicates that the Lord foreknew who Satan's people were, and if so, that He would also have foreknowledge who His people were as well?



JLB

I always enjoyed your posts and questions, my very good old friend JLB. According to John Calvin, God moves in the present time frame. Even though He's aware of the future decisions of those who will accept His Son as their Savior and those who will not, He makes no decisions based on foreknowledge.

He knew that Satan would tempt Adam and Eve, but because He elects to function in the present, He made no attempt to stop Satan's deception of Eve. God, to me, is a fascinating Being. Since His ways are way above mine and Calvin, I can only speculate on what His actions and will is beyond the revealed Word of God. I think, in a way, that Calvin took some liberty in arriving at some of his theology, not realizing how great and grand is God's love for every one of His Creatures.

For Mr Calvin to say with such conviction that God willed certain men to be saved and others to be damned, is going beyond what the Scriptures teach other than a select few which deal with men of whom had hard hearts, and God hardened them more.

I hope this answers your question dear friend, if not, I'll try and be more specific.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi Chopper,
I have a question too.
Does a person who believes in eternal salvation, or OSAS, also have to be a Calvinist?
By Calvinist I mean one who believes in the five points (or TULIP).
Or, could they believe ONLY in the concept of OSAS and reject the other points.

Thanks.

Wondering

 

[Chopper]

I cannot accept a theology in which the God of scripture predestines anyone to hell by not predestining them to eternal life. I do not believe that is the God who so loved the world and whose will it is that all should come to repentance.

jim

I agree with you totally Jim. That is why I spent so much time seeking the Lord for His Truth on this matter of predestination. Calvin's book on the "Institutes of the Christian Religion" is a fantastic study on vital theology of the Reformation period in our early Christian history. Calvin and Augustine were battling the Roman Catholic Church' teachings. Both of these men made some bad judgments in trying to pry loose some of the Church' false doctrines. Infant baptism was one of them.

So, rather than bad mouth John Calvin for a small segment of his teachings, I would rather study his whole theology, throw out what, IMO, doesn't line up with the whole counsel of God, and bask in what He presents as biblical Truth. The blessed Holy Spirit has helped me tremendously in separating Truth from error, of which I thank and praise our Heavenly Father for coming to my side and heart with His power over false doctrine.

Thank you very much for your interest in this thread. I look forward to your future posts.

 

[Malachi]

So, Calvin did not believe that God used His foreknowledge to determine His Elect Ones who would be faithful to Him until death.

And Calvin was clearly mistaken. The Bible teaches that people are elect according to the foreknowledge of God, but that election is NOT for salvation but for sanctification and glorification. Let's examine this passage closely (1 Pet 1:1-5):

ADDRESSED TO HEBREW CHRISTIANS
APPLICABLE TO ALL
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

ELECTION ACCORDING TO FOREKNOWLEDGE
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,

ELECTION THROUGH AND FOR SANCTIFICATION
through sanctification of the Spirit,

SANCTIFICATION THROUGH OBEDIENCE AND THE BLOOD
unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

GRACE AND PEACE TO EACH OF THE ELECT
Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

ALL BLESSINGS FROM GOD THE FATHER
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

ABUNDANT MERCY = GRACE
which according to his abundant mercy

THE NEW BIRTH BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH
hath begotten us again

THE NEW BIRTH GIVES THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE
unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

AN INHERITANCE FOR ALL THE SAINTS IN HEAVEN
To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

NOT PERSEVERANCE BUT PRESERVATION
Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

[Jim Parker]

Calvin and Augustine were battling the Roman Catholic Church' teachings.

I'm confused. Augustine of Hippo predated Calvin by more than 1000 years and his writings are foundational to western Christianity.

Calvin's book on the "Institutes of the Christian Religion" is a fantastic study on vital theology of the Reformation period in our early Christian history.

Calvin's teaching is much more representative of modern Christianity than early Christianity. There is 1500 years of Eastern and Western Christian theology that precedes his innovations.
Calvin introduced deviations from the early teachings of the Christian church to the extent that his theology would not be recognizable as orthodox Christianity to the church of the first millennium.

So, rather than bad mouth John Calvin for a small segment of his teachings, I would rather study his whole theology, throw out what, IMO, doesn't line up with the whole counsel of God, and bask in what He presents as biblical Truth.

I find it curious that so very very few people with as great an interest in theology as you have, have not read the writers from the earliest days of the church who were much closer to the teachings of the apostles than were the modern innovators of the reformation. The teaching of the theological giants of the early church is essentially ignored in Protestant seminaries. (It was at Fuller when I studied there.)
The result is tat many serious students mistake the writings of the reformers to be "classical" Christianity when, in fact, it is composed of a series of deviations from the original Christianity of the ancient Church.

jim

 

[JLB]

Even though He's aware of the future decisions of those who will accept His Son as their Savior and those who will not, He makes no decisions based on foreknowledge.

OK, brother, if that's what you believe, I will just have to accept it.

I know you have your reasons for saying this and that you yourself must have struggled to find the balance of truth in the teaching of Mr. Calvin, and the bible itself, so I will just leave it at that.

I do respect the great struggle of that time and what those guys went through to shake loose of the Catholic Church.

Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His" ... 2 Timothy 2:19



JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

The reason for the edit violation of
10) Discussion of Catholic doctrine is allowed only in the One on One Debate and End Times forums. (ToS 2.2)
RCC content in the End Times forum should relate to End Times beliefs. Do not start new topics elsewhere or sway existing threads toward a discussion or debate that may be viewed as ‘Catholic’ in nature.
Reba

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi Chopper,

I've already said that I understand that you've come to a balance of truth, as JLB called it, above.
It could work for me since you're accepting that EVERYONE could be saved if they so choose - something Calvinists do not believe.

The thought that God, who is all-good, would predestine someone to hell is rather horrifying to me and I would not be able to serve that God.

It's interesting to me that I could agree with JLB concerning the reformers of the 1,500's that sought to make changes to the original church, which would be the CC. Most people will mention the selling of indulgences, but it was doing much more than that - but I don't think we can get into it. Let's just say that change was necessary because the original church had gone astray.

BUT, I could also agree with the original church. How? In the fact that it maintained, even for us, all the concepts that were in the N.T. and which had many times been in danger of being corrupted by heretics.

Could I add the following idea? If one is a Calvinist, how could he ever know for sure that he is truly saved??!

If one falls away, a Calvanist will say that he was never saved to begin with.
So, since I have no say in the matter, HOW can I possibly know for sure that I will NOT fall away at some point? And thus, I was never really saved to begin with. This, to me, would be a life-long worry.

But since I believe in free-will, I can know that as long as I remain in Christ, I AM saved since it is my decision, based on my will, to remain in Christ.

Isn't this more freeing? You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you FREE.
John 8:32

Wondering

 

[Chopper]

Hi Chopper,
I have a question too.
Does a person who believes in eternal salvation, or OSAS, also have to be a Calvinist?
By Calvinist I mean one who believes in the five points (or TULIP).
Or, could they believe ONLY in the concept of OSAS and reject the other points.

Thanks.

Wondering

Good morning wondering my special friend. Being a follower of Calvinism has nothing to do with OSAS even though that doctrine is addressed in TULIP. From my studies in the history of the Baptist Church, OSAS has always been one of the dominate doctrines of Baptists. I'm not sure if Baptists were the first to publish "eternal security" to the public, but I do know that very early in Baptist history it was taught.

It's very wise not to be known as a "Calvinist" because there are areas of his theology that we at this time disagree with. I refer to myself as a biblisist. I'm a student of Calvinism, that's all.

 

[smaller]

Calvin's premise on the "unsaved" was entirely speculative on his part. Calvin had no more clue about the eternal fate of any man including himself than a man in the moon.

In Calvin's form of predestination no one, not any believer, can know with absolute certainty that they are saved. They must all big P persevere to the end to find out. Therefore Calvin didn't know, obviously. And couldn't know til he was past his flesh life. It's entirely presumption and entirely speculative on Calvin's part. Just as it is on anyone's part who claims to know who is going to hell and who is not because the fact is the Bible doesn't say. It is technically silent on specifics. It would have been very easy to say "this individual" (X name) out of all the millions or billions who had lived is going to the LoF without any doubt. But it's simply not there. There isn't one named example in the entire Bible.

Therefore, speculation.

This speculation is compounded by the fact that scriptures do present a very strong set of counters to Calvin's premises and speculations. For example, Romans 11. Huge counter. Roman 11:8 shows that Israel, in their unbelief, was caused by God's placement of a spirit of slumber upon them so they couldn't believe. Yes, an entity, a spirit of slumber that was not them. The same spirit that Paul notes in 2 Cor. 4:4, Acts 26:18. And that Jesus notes in Mark 4:15 and all the other seed parables, and in many many other places. Mankind is NOT ALONE in their unbelief. It is not an "individual's" problem. It is a problem of spiritual blindness imposed by the opposition party that God also made to do exactly that.

Yes, God did that, and did it for us gentiles to come into faith. Yet, God saves these blinded enemies of the Gospel who are Israel, REGARDLESS. Romans 11:25-32. Paul noted these enemies as both past and present tense, not some future folks. And this is noted by Paul as a Mystery that we should not be ignorant of.

Romans 11 imho decimates both Calvin's predeterminism and freewillism altogether and sets a much Higher Greater Standard that God IS for all to see.

but...the opposition party is in force, even upon the believers. 1 John 3:8, 2 Cor. 4:4, Gal. 5:17. People can not believe these things because God does not allow them to see it, even if it's in plain sight, written.

Numbers 23:21
He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob, neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: the Lord his God is with him, and the shout of a king is among them.

The answers to these questions is quite entirely simple. Mankind is forgiven. Satan and his messengers are NOT and never will be forgiven or saved.

Divide along these lines and you'll see all you need to see.

 

[GodsGrace]

Calvin's premise on the "unsaved" was entirely speculative on his part. Calvin had no more clue about the eternal fate of any man including himself than a man in the moon.

In Calvin's form of predestination no one, not any believer, can know with absolute certainty that they are saved. They must all big P persevere to the end to find out. Therefore Calvin didn't know, obviously. And couldn't know til he was past his flesh life. It's entirely presumption and entirely speculative on Calvin's part. Just as it is on anyone's part who claims to know who is going to hell and who is not because the fact is the Bible doesn't say. It is technically silent on specifics. It would have been very easy to say "this individual" (X name) out of all the millions or billions who had lived is going to the LoF without any doubt. But it's simply not there. There isn't one named example in the entire Bible.

Therefore, speculation.

This speculation is compounded by the fact that scriptures do present a very strong set of counters to Calvin's premises and speculations. For example, Romans 11. Huge counter. Roman 11:8 shows that Israel, in their unbelief, was caused by God's placement of a spirit of slumber upon them so they couldn't believe. Yes, an entity, a spirit of slumber that was not them. The same spirit that Paul notes in 2 Cor. 4:4, Acts 26:18. And that Jesus notes in Mark 4:15 and all the other seed parables, and in many many other places. Mankind is NOT ALONE in their unbelief. It is not an "individual's" problem. It is a problem of spiritual blindness imposed by the opposition party that God also made to do exactly that.

Yes, God did that, and did it for us gentiles to come into faith. Yet, God saves these blinded enemies of the Gospel who are Israel, REGARDLESS. Romans 11:25-32. Paul noted these enemies as both past and present tense, not some future folks. And this is noted by Paul as a Mystery that we should not be ignorant of.

Romans 11 imho decimates both Calvin's predeterminism and freewillism altogether and sets a much Higher Greater Standard that God IS for all to see.

but...the opposition party is in force, even upon the believers. 1 John 3:8, 2 Cor. 4:4, Gal. 5:17. People can not believe these things because God does not allow them to see it, even if it's in plain sight, written.

Numbers 23:21
He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob, neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: the Lord his God is with him, and the shout of a king is among them.

The answers to these questions is quite entirely simple. Mankind is forgiven. Satan and his messengers are NOT and never will be forgiven or saved.

Divide along these lines and you'll see all you need to see.

Of course satan and his messengers will never be forgiven. They're angels and were immediately sent to their abode in hell upon they're betrayal.

But, are you saying MANKIND will be saved? Meaning each and every person past, present and future?

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

And Calvin was clearly mistaken. The Bible teaches that people are elect according to the foreknowledge of God, but that election is NOT for salvation but for sanctification and glorification. Let's examine this passage closely (1 Pet 1:1-5):

ADDRESSED TO HEBREW CHRISTIANS
APPLICABLE TO ALL
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

ELECTION ACCORDING TO FOREKNOWLEDGE
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,

ELECTION THROUGH AND FOR SANCTIFICATION
through sanctification of the Spirit,

SANCTIFICATION THROUGH OBEDIENCE AND THE BLOOD
unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

GRACE AND PEACE TO EACH OF THE ELECT
Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

ALL BLESSINGS FROM GOD THE FATHER
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

ABUNDANT MERCY = GRACE
which according to his abundant mercy

THE NEW BIRTH BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH
hath begotten us again

THE NEW BIRTH GIVES THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE
unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

AN INHERITANCE FOR ALL THE SAINTS IN HEAVEN
To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

NOT PERSEVERANCE BUT PRESERVATION
Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Malachi
Nice post.

Two questions:
ELECTION THROUGH AND FOR SANCTIFICATION
The THROUGH makes it sound like we have to be sanctified in order to be elected.
I'm sure this is not what is meant.
Election FOR sanctification would be correct.
Comment?

And:
NOT PERSEVERANCE BUT PRESERVATION
Must we not also persevere?
Romans 10:22
James 1:12

Wondering

 

[Chopper]

And Calvin was clearly mistaken. The Bible teaches that people are elect according to the foreknowledge of God, but that election is NOT for salvation but for sanctification and glorification. Let's examine this passage closely (1 Pet 1:1-5):

ADDRESSED TO HEBREW CHRISTIANS
APPLICABLE TO ALL
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

ELECTION ACCORDING TO FOREKNOWLEDGE
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,

ELECTION THROUGH AND FOR SANCTIFICATION
through sanctification of the Spirit,

SANCTIFICATION THROUGH OBEDIENCE AND THE BLOOD
unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

GRACE AND PEACE TO EACH OF THE ELECT
Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

ALL BLESSINGS FROM GOD THE FATHER
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

ABUNDANT MERCY = GRACE
which according to his abundant mercy

THE NEW BIRTH BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH
hath begotten us again

THE NEW BIRTH GIVES THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE
unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

AN INHERITANCE FOR ALL THE SAINTS IN HEAVEN
To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

NOT PERSEVERANCE BUT PRESERVATION
Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

You have chosen to believe one of at least two views of foreknowledge. This is what you said.

And Calvin was clearly mistaken. The Bible teaches that people are elect according to the foreknowledge of God, but that election is NOT for salvation but for sanctification and glorification. Let's examine this passage closely (1 Pet 1:1-5):

You're looking at foreknowledge as if God looked into the future and elected those who believed and was saved. You could also say that He also saw those who would not be saved and damned them to hell. The whole point in Calvinism, you along with me and others reject this belief of Calvin. "All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation. Preordained to life or death." So if you believe that foreknowledge has to do with future knowledge making up God's mind as far as His choice of Salvation or damnation, you have no argument at all with Calvin.

On the other hand, Calvin and I believe this, "We believe and ascribe to prescience (knowledge of things before they exist or happen; foreknowledge) and predestination to God; but we say, that it is absurd to make the latter subordinate to the former. By interposing foreknowledge as a veil, you and others not only obscure election, but pretend to give it a different origin. The awesome work of Almighty God, as far as pure election is concerned, we must, in our theology, protect His ability to choose whom His good pleasure chooses to be part of this elite remnant of true followers. Look at this Scripture please....

2Ti mothy1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began." I personally believe that if God's foreknowledge of those who got saved in the future, was the reason He chose them to be a part of the Elect, that is connected with "works" and works cannot be the prerequisite to Salvation.

I like this verse....John 15:16a "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you." In truth, those who became Christians at some future date, chose Christ Jesus. Election runs on the belief that God chooses, not man. Ephesians 1:9 "Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself." "The expression that God "purposed in himself" is the same as if it had been said, that in forming His decree He considered nothing external to Himself." (Calvin, "Institutes of the Christian Religion" p. 617).

Thank you for your reply, even though I don't agree with your statement, I do enjoy the challenge to my personal theology, and defending some of Calvin's beliefs.