Eternal Life

[chessman]

So what is your answer?

Thus my answer is 2 (some other faith). Just like I said at least five times.

 

[JLB]

Thus my answer is 2 (some other faith). Just like I said at least five times.

So you believe that the Holy Spirit is warning the Church, through Paul's writings that some will depart from faith in food, or faith in marriage... but not faith in Christ?

Like I said, before, only people who have been born again, and enlightened by the Holy Spirit and taught the word of God, believe and know what is right before God.

IOW only those who are born again, and have faith in Christ, believe and know the truth.



Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 1 Timothy 4:1-3

The context shows us that "the faith", the Holy Spirit is referring to is faith in Christ... who are those who believe and know the truth.

How can you depart from a faith you never had.

Those who have faith, believe and know the truth.

Those who depart from the faith, no longer believe and know the truth, which is why they are... forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving.





JLB

 

[JLB]

Me too. Like Godly marriage and some foods that people reject yet some of those same people happen to have faith in Jesus Christ (The faith above all others). Thus my answer is 2 (some other faith). Just like I said at least five times.

If Paul would have said in latter days some people that have faith in Jesus will depart from their faith in Jesus, you would have an anti-OSAS passage, IMO. And I would have to wonder about the accuracy of all the passages that say people that have had the faith in Jesus Christ are a new creation by God, made Holy by God and given Eternal Life, never to be rejected by Jesus or revocated. But fortunately, Paul didn't say people will depart from the faith in Jesus Christ. Thus, I don't have to worry about this being an OSAS passage.

It's all about faith in Christ.

It's not about faith in food, or faith in marriage, but faith in Christ Jesus.

Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living...

Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.
Romans 14;1-9,22-23



JLB

 

[chessman]

It's not about faith in food, or faith in marriage, but faith in Christ Jesus.

So says you.

Please post this passage and underline where it says faith in Christ Jesus.

You are snipping out the parts you don't like and inserting your ideas in their place. Again and again. Over and over.

It's about faith in all foods being created by God for sharing without rejecting some foods and about faith in marriage being created by God and not rejected as God's creation.

My evidence comes from this Text itself.
Your 'evidence' comes from you.

 

[chessman]

So you believe that the Holy Spirit is warning the Church, through Paul's writings that some will depart from faith in food, or faith in marriage...

Beats what you believe:

unbelievers are saved

 

[dirtfarmer]

Brother, here are the words that came from your post:

Those that hold the doctrine of loss of salvation, did your children make a commitment to be your children?

Angels are sons of God.

Sons being a reference to God's children.

Those who attain to the "that age" will be equal to the angels and are sons of God.

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:35-36





Please post the scripture that says this.

So a Christians who takes the mark of the beast, won't be cast into the lake of fire?

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Revelation 14:9-12


Anyone who worships the beast...

Born again Christians, saints of the Most High, those who have the faith of Jesus, are included in the word "anyone".



JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

Was John, who is the author of Revelation, an apostle to the Gentiles? According to Galatians 2:9 John, Cephas(Peter) James were the apostles to the circumcision, the Jews. Paul was the apostle to the heathen(Gentiles). In Revelation 1:6, 5:10, and 1 Peter 2:9 all have reference to Exodus 19:5-6. No where is scripture do you find the heirs and joint-heirs with Christ call a kingdom of priest. WE, the Church, are the bride of Christ. We have been espoused to him as chaste virgin and during the tribulation the marriage and the marriage feast will happen. The 144,000, 12,000 from each tribe, that are sealed will the kingdom of priest and they will accomplish Matthew 28:19-20.

Who are " the rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years were finished." Revelation 20:5 They are those upon the whom the "second death" rest and will be cast into the lake of fire.

As to "anyone" in Revelation 14:9 cannot be speaking of believers of the Church, because they are the bride of Christ and are at their wedding feast with the bridegroom. In verse 7 there is no mention of the sacrifice of Christ, only "Fear God, give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters."

 

[JLB]

Beats what you believe:

It's not about "beating" someone.

It's about the truth.

Those who are born again, enlightened by the Spirit and believe and know the truth, understand that in the last days some will depart from the faith.

The faith.

The One faith.

Faith is Christ.

Not faith in food.

Not faith in marriage.

The faith that Paul lived and taught to us.

The faith that Paul "kept", and left for us a good example of continuing in the faith, and not being moved away from the hope of the Gospel.

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23


The hope of the Gospel is the salvation of our soul.

Faith is the substance of the thing hoped...

If we depart from the faith, then we no longer have the hope of salvation.

Let's encourage each of those on this Forum, and who we live and interact with, to continue in the faith, to the end of our lives, knowing that God loves us and is for us, but also knowing that the days grow dark and America will have her turn with persecution.

Those who endure to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13



JLB

 

[JLB]

Was John, who is the author of Revelation, an apostle to the Gentiles?

I find it hard to believe that the seven Churches in Asia were made up of only Jews.

No where is scripture do you find the heirs and joint-heirs with Christ call a kingdom of priest. WE, the Church, are the bride of Christ. We have been espoused to him as chaste virgin and during the tribulation the marriage and the marriage feast will happen. The 144,000, 12,000 from each tribe, that are sealed will the kingdom of priest and they will accomplish Matthew 28:19-20.

The unbiblical teaching that the Church will be raptured to heaven before the Tribulation is a dangerous and divisive teaching.

Teaching that Gentile believers are the bride and not the Jews, is no where to be found in scripture.

As to "anyone" in Revelation 14:9 cannot be speaking of believers of the Church, because they are the bride of Christ and are at their wedding feast with the bridegroom. In verse 7 there is no mention of the sacrifice of Christ, only "Fear God, give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters."

The marriage supper of the Lamb occurs on earth after the tribulation when the Lord returns from heaven with His saints.

Here is the seen at the end of the age on the last Day when Jesus returns and the marriage supper has not yet taken place.

9 Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.” 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Revelation 19:9-14


If you would like to discuss the Rapture and Resurrection, and the tribulation, then let's start a thread about that subject and discuss it there.


Thanks JLB

 

[Douglas Summers]

The function of the “resurrection” is to join a spirit being with a new indestructible physical body, similar (maybe exactly) to man’s body prior to sinning. It’s also true that believers and unbelievers will both receive a resurrected body (John 5:28, 29), but not both will have “eternal life” (John 10:27, 28) in their new bodies, which is the intention of “the second death.” If eternal life means an eternal relationship with God, then the absence of an eternal relationship with God means eternal death.

So, I believe a question that may be adequate in addressing eternal life is, “when does a believer receive eternal life”? My understanding is that it is possessed at the time of rebirth, and if so, the phrase “loose eternal life” is not only an oxymoron (you can’t lose eternal life since it means life that is forever) but Scripture has no usages of such language or concept.

May God guide all who reply to this post to His truths concerning it, and God Be Blessed!

Pretty close to what I understand. Eternal life starts as a born again believer. But in the resurrection of the dead (Great White Throne Judgment). I do not believe that the second resurrected will have a new body standing before the Lord, but I believe they will be resurrected in the same body they died in. But the body of the born again believer will be just like Christ our Lord. (1 John 3:2-3)

 

[dirtfarmer]

I find it hard to believe that the seven Churches in Asia were made up of only Jews.




The unbiblical teaching that the Church will be raptured to heaven before the Tribulation is a dangerous and divisive teaching.

Teaching that Gentile believers are the bride and not the Jews, is no where to be found in scripture.



The marriage supper of the Lamb occurs on earth after the tribulation when the Lord returns from heaven with His saints.

Here is the seen at the end of the age on the last Day when Jesus returns and the marriage supper has not yet taken place.

9 Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.” 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Revelation 19:9-14


If you would like to discuss the Rapture and Resurrection, and the tribulation, then let's start a thread about that subject and discuss it there.


Thanks JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

If you want to start a thread, I will participate, but it should be open to anyone. If it gets to a he said, she said argument I will end my participation.

 

[JLB]

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

If you want to start a thread, I will participate, but it should be open to anyone. If it gets to a he said, she said argument I will end my participation.

Yes sir. Everyone.

Go ahead and start it.

You need the practice at starting your own thread.

It's easy.

Whenever your ready.


Blessings to you. JLB

 

[Douglas Summers]

The hope of the Gospel is the salvation of our soul.

JLB, I have no hope for salvation as a "born again believer" hope is not for salvation after I was born again, (Eph. 1:13-14) I'am already assured of that. (John 10:27-30) (John 11:21-27). I do did not need these Scripture to tell me that, I just needed them to confirm that. I have no thought or fear of loosing my salvation. I'am never apart from The Lord's fellowship. What I don't have yet, is a new body. (Rom. 8:19-25) (2 Cor. 5:1-9). This was not really grounded in me right away, I had to mature. Raising children matured me in the Lord.

My grandmother was my legal guardian when I was 5 years old. Through the years I took my grandmother for granted. She made the best home made bread ever, and she always good to me. But it was not until I was married and had children that I realized my Grandmother loved me. And so it is with a young Christian, they take the Lord for granted, but as they mature through life's experience, we then began to see how God loved us.

 

[JLB]

I have no thought or fear of loosing my salvation.

Good. Neither do I.

It's called faith.

However, if I departed from the faith, that is the substance of my hope, then I would not have this confidence.

I have no hope for salvation as a "born again believer"

Hope is exactly what we have through our faith in Jesus Christ.

Our salvation comes at the end of our faith.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith,being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9


Do you have faith in Jesus Christ for salvation?

If you do, then you have the hope of salvation.

Faith is the substance of the thing you are hoping for, and is the evidence of things not seen.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1


Paul said it this way:

24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:24-25

Douglas, I ask you to honestly and truthfully answer this simple question.


What is the "it", here in verse 25, that we are waiting for with perseverance, referring to?



JLB

 

[JLB]

And so it is with a young Christian, they take the Lord for granted, but as they mature through life's experience, we then began to see how God loved us.

Amen to that, Brother.

My life is a living example of this truth.

However that is not the subject matter, we are discussing.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14


This is a willful departing from Jesus Christ, because of persecution, specifically from unbelieving Jews who believe it is their duty to stone to death, Jews who seduce other Jews to serve "other" gods, which they claimed the disciples of Jesus Christ were doing.

6 “If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, 7 of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, 8 you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; 9 but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 And you shall stone him with stones until he dies, because he sought to entice you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. Deuteronomy 13:6-10



This is not just taking the Lord for granted.



JLB

 

[dirtfarmer]

Good. Neither do I.

It's called faith.

However, if I departed from the faith, that is the substance of my hope, then I would not have this confidence.




Hope is exactly what we have through our faith in Jesus Christ.

Our salvation comes at the end of our faith.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith,being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9


Do you have faith in Jesus Christ for salvation?

If you do, then you have the hope of salvation.

Faith is the substance of the thing you are hoping for, and is the evidence of things not seen.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1


Paul said it this way:

24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:24-25

Douglas, I ask you to honestly and truthfully answer this simple question.


What is the "it", here in verse 25, that we are waiting for with perseverance, referring to?



JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

The "it" in verse 25 is the redemption of our body as stated in verse 23.
We have been saved from the penalty of sin.
We have been saved from the power of sin.
We will be saved from the presence of sin in the redemption of our body.

 

[smaller]

However, if I departed from the faith, that is the substance of my hope, then I would not have this confidence.

Do you believe believers who don't believe as you do on this particular matter are not saved?

2 Timothy 2:13
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

If it is not a "critical" doctrine to hold for salvation I might think it rather worthless in light of many other more credible alternatives, for examples, not being saved to begin with or not believing sectarian slants, etc.

 

[netchaplain]

Pretty close to what I understand. Eternal life starts as a born again believer. But in the resurrection of the dead (Great White Throne Judgment). I do not believe that the second resurrected will have a new body standing before the Lord, but I believe they will be resurrected in the same body they died in. But the body of the born again believer will be just like Christ our Lord. (1 John 3:2-3)

Hi DS - I believe you indicate a noteworthy issue that could possibly relate to being "like Him" concerning the sinless state, which concerning the condition of the resurrection of the unbelievers will not be like, but in sin, yet resurrected, which has to do with the body, not the spirit which yet exists, thus they will be resurrected with sin in them!

I see no reason (no obvious Scripture support for the eternal existence concerning the old body) to conceive a difference in relation to the body being indestructible, which may be related to them being enabled for sustaining "eternal torment" (Rev 20:10, 15).

Blessings!

 

[chessman]

It's about the truth.

Then stop claiming that I said that the faith Paul wrote about in 1 Tim 4:1-5 is "faith in food" or "faith in marraige" when I didn't.

So you believe that the Holy Spirit is warning the Church, through Paul's writings that some will depart from faith in food, or faith in marriage...

I have told you multiple times that is not what I said or believe, yet you continue to claim it is. Very untruthful on your part.
I don't even know what that means, "faith in food". But I know what having faith in everything God created being good means. Which is what I said.

The faith that says, and I quote,
"everything created by God is good and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thankfulness,

Stop claiming that my view of the passage is to have "faith in food". Those on this forum see that you are intentionally chopping off the rest of my sentence to make it look as if that's what I said and ignoring the fact that bracketing food and marraige simply means those were two examples of things God created [food and marraige] in your attempt to discredit my quotation of the passage in question. And I've explained it to you several times yet you continue to make this false claim.

Let's encourage each of those on this Forum, and who we live and interact with, to continue in the faith, to the end of our lives, knowing that God loves us and is for us, but also knowing that the days grow dark and America will have her turn with persecution.

Okay. Deal. I encourage you to stop making a false claim as to what I believe about 1 Tim 4:1-5

I find encouragment in, have faith in the fact that:

everything created by God is good and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thankfulness, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer. (1 Tim 4:5)​

2 Corinthians 5:17-18 (LEB)Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold, new things have come. And all these things are from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ, and who has given us the ministry of reconciliation, ​

 

[JLB]

Then stop claiming that I said that the faith Paul wrote about in 1 Tim 4:1-5 is "faith in food" or "faith in marraige" when I didn't.



I have told you multiple times that is not what I said or believe, yet you continue to claim it is. Very untruthful on your part.
I don't even know what that means, "faith in food". But I know what having faith in everything God created being good means. Which is what I said.



Stop claiming that my view of the passage is to have "faith in food". Those on this forum see that you are intentionally chopping off the rest of my sentence to make it look as if that's what I said and ignoring the fact that bracketing food and marraige simply means those were two examples of things God created [food and marraige] in your attempt to discredit my quotation of the passage in question. And I've explained it to you several times yet you continue to make this false claim.


Okay. Deal. I encourage you to stop making a false claim as to what I believe about 1 Tim 4:1-5

I find encouragment in, have faith in the fact that:

everything created by God is good and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thankfulness, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer. (1 Tim 4:5)​

2 Corinthians 5:17-18 (LEB)Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold, new things have come. And all these things are from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ, and who has given us the ministry of reconciliation, ​

Here is your quote.

Faith In Christ is not mentioned by Paul in 1 Tim 4:1-4. A faith in everything created by God [marraige, food, etc,] being good and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thankfulness is mentioned in this passage as the faith that demons will deceive some into departing from.

A faith in everything created by God [marraige, food, etc,]

It's too late to deny it, that is what you said.


"The faith" mentioned in 1 Timothy 4:1 is not faith in everything created by God. That's Pantheism.

The faith mentioned in 1 Timothy 4:1 is the one true faith, which is faith in Jesus Christ.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
1 Timothy 4:1-6

The food is to be "received" by those who believe and know the truth.

We don't have faith in food, or anything else God created... we have faith in God and from God.

• Those who believe and know the truth, are those who have faith in Christ.
• Those who have departed from the faith, no longer have faith in Christ.

JLB

 

[JLB]

I find encouragment in, have faith in the fact that:
everything created by God is good and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thankfulness, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer. (1 Tim 4:5)

I find encouragement in, have faith in the fact that: everything created by God is good...

That's better than: A faith in everything created by God [marraige, food, etc,]

So you believe Paul is teaching that "the faith", is faith in the fact that everything is created by God...

Who created all things?

Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. Colossians 1:15-16


Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
1 Timothy 4:1-5


JLB