A Question For Non-Believers

[GodsGrace]

I have doubts, but the fact that we are here makes me think God exists. Something couldn’t come from nothing. Energy cannot be created or destroyed only transformed or transferred. There had to be an energy that started it all and maybe that energy was God?

Agreed.
Everything had to be created by something.
A thing does not create itself.
So what created the very first thing?
Something had to not have depended on anything for it's creation...
this is the something that we call God.
Jesus became a man so that we could understand God and what He wanted to teach us...
but it does not mean that God is a person...Only the 2nd being of the Trinity is a person,,,Jesus.
We cannot know for sure what God is...but we know that He is loving, and powerful, and has many of the same attributes we have.

So for me, as I think also for you, this really keeps my faith strong.
Something started it all,,,and that energy was God!

 

[Quantrill]

Hi Quantrill....

Hebrews 6 is sometimes used to show that once someone leaves the faith, he can no longer return to it.

This cannot be true because we know that the Prodigal Son returned to his father and was accepted. Of course, the father in this parable would be God and the Prodigal son is any one of us that leaves the faith and then wants to repent and return. Also, we might commit a big sin and ask forgiveness and God will be faithful and forgive us our sins. John assures us of our forgiveness in his epistle. 1 John 2:1.

So Hebrews must be speaking of something different.

Hebrews 6:4-6
4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

I believe Hebrews is speaking only of the Jews that had heard and seen Jesus and wanted to follow Him.
But then they had second thoughts and considered going back to the Law. This is like saying that what Jesus had accomplished was not worthy and that they trusted their laws and old ways more and thought that method of salvation was better. This is why it states that it's like crucifying Jesus again. If the Jews did turn back to their old ways...it would surely be unlikely that they would ever want to return to Christ again since they understood clearly what they were doing in turning away from Him.

Yes, it does speak of something different. But they are serious warnings. Many hold the view that these are 'professors but not possessors' of the Christian faith. But I disagree.

I do believe that (Hebrews) is speaking to born-again Jews. Paul refers to them as 'holy brethren'. (Heb. 3:1) Plus he constantly uses the term 'we' throughout (Hebrews). And remember James, who wrote the book of (James) was leader of the church in Jerusalem. But he and that church still followed the law. (Acts 15:5) (15:13) And he was instrumental in causing Paul to stumble in also going back to the law. (Acts 21:17-26)

Myself, I am convinced that Paul wrote (Hebrews), and wrote it to the church at Jerusalem. The only reason he didn't put his name to it was that he knew what the response of the Jews would be to it.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

To follow up on post #(52) and #(62), where I have said the book of (Hebrews) is to born-again Jews. Christians. And it is about going on in the Christian faith.

To further understand (Heb. 6:4-6) which is a warning to these Christians we should look back at (Heb. 3).

(Heb. 3:7-11) "Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)"

Paul is speaking of the generation that died in the wilderness. Believing Jews. Note Paul said 'your fathers'. (Heb. 3:9) This was Israel who came out of Egypt. They were already saved. When did they get saved? The Passover. When they applied the blood to the door posts of their houses in Egypt they were exercising faith in God and so they lived. Israel was a saved nation. (Ex. 12:1-13) Just like we are saved by Christ our Passover. (1 Cor. 5:7).

So this saved nation of Jews now leaves Egypt but they have to cross the Red sea. Which they do miraculously. (Ex. 14:13-31) Now, this passing through the waters of the Red Sea was the water baptism of the believing nation Israel. (1 Cor. 10:1-2) So you have a saved people under the blood. They have been water baptized. They are headed to Canaan, the promised land. Canaan is not a picture or figure of Heaven. These people obtained that through the Passover. Canaan is a picture of the believer walking in faith and spiritual maturity here on this earth. The Rest of God.

God now leads them to a place called Kadesh-barnea. The very entrance into the promised land. And what happens? This saved people hesitate. They become fearful. They are told there are giants in the land. They lack faith that God will be with them and protect them. (Num. 13:26-14:10) They become unbelieving believers. They are still saved, going to Heaven, but they lack the faith to enter the Rest of God.

So, God was grieved with them and said they shall not enter into that Rest. (Num. 14:22-23) (Heb. 3:11) And Paul then warns the Christian Jews that they should take heed to this. (Heb. 3:12) "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God." Which means to go back to the Mosaic System and to not go on in the Christian faith, was departing from God. You are not going in the way God wants.

Not believing was what stopped the believing Jews from entering the land. Their faith was weak. So that generation died in the wilderness and wandered for 40 years while God raised up another generation. (Num. 14:33) But all this time, God was faithful to this people of His. He provided miraculously for them. And the new generation witnessed this miraculous caring of God for 40 years. Their faith grew. So that when the time came to once again cross over to the promised the land, they had the faith. (Josh. 3:9-17)

The promised land is not Heaven. It is the Rest of God. It is the spiritually mature believer walking in faith in no matter what he/she encounters. Many believers never get there, here. They die in the unbelief of the wilderness. But they still go to Heaven because they are under the Blood, the Passover, Christ.

(Heb. 4:1) "Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it."

Quantrill

 

[Randy]

Is there some other way of escaping the corruption of this world?


For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 2 Peter 2:20


Only a born again Spirit filled Christian can be free from the corrupting pollution of the world.



JLB

The reason given was, " through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,".

We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them.

 

[JLB]

No. That was not 'according to my words'.

Yes sir. You plainly said they were liars.

I'm sure there are many Christians who, under torture, denounced Christ. Didn't make them not Christians. Just made a liar out of them. Torture can do that.

JLB

 

[JLB]

Only for one group it will be a return, and for the other a first and last time.

For one group, the false messiah, the antichrist will come first, to the temple the build, and proclaim himself as God, as the Messiah.


Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4


The antichrist comes first and ends up being destroyed by Jesus, at His coming.



And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8






JLB

 

[JLB]

The reason given was, " through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,".

We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them.

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:7-10

• if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

• If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

• If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. 1 John 5:18



Part of keeping ourselves is walking in the light as He is in the light, and confessing our sin, if we do sin.






JLB

 

[Randy]

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:7-10

• if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

• If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

• If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. 1 John 5:18



Part of keeping ourselves is walking in the light as He is in the light, and confessing our sin, if we do sin.






JLB

We also know this.
Whoever says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person.

The Criteria hasn't changed.
To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

These very Jews challenged Jesus.
They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?” Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

It goes together as those that hold to the testimony of Jesus AND obey Jesus's commands show they are really His disciples. They show themselves to be the children of God.

 

[JLB]

We also know this.
Whoever says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person.

Yes. Again this warning is to Christians who claim to have eternal life, but disregard keeping His commandments.

It’s a wonderful admonition that brings clarity to us. Many Christian’s are taught false doctrine that deceives them into thinking we don’t need to keep His commandments, and they end up being removed from Christ by God the Father.


“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;...


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

We must remain “in Christ” if we expect to continue to have eternal life.



If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6



He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1 John 5:12






JLB

 

[JLB]

To follow up on post #(52) and #(62), where I have said the book of (Hebrews) is to born-again Jews. Christians. And it is about going on in the Christian faith.

I agree the book of Hebrews is to Hebrew Christians.

 

[Quantrill]

I agree the book of Hebrews is to Hebrew Christians.

So what?

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Yes sir. You plainly said they were liars.






JLB

As usual, you pick up on one statement and ignore the rest.

I am saying they are liars under torture.

You, the legalist, can only see they lie.

Thus you ignore the rest of the statements I said.

Why don't you respond to the full posts instsed of choosing what you think you can get away with?

Quantrill

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

As usual, you pick up on one statement and ignore the rest.

I am saying they are liars under torture.

You, the legalist, can only see they lie.

Thus you ignore the rest of the statements I said.

Why don't you respond to the full posts instsed of choosing what you think you can get away with?

Quantrill

You are saying people who are tortured will give up on Christ.
Impossible.
Jesus will be right there with us to the end.
That's what you lack in faith.

 

[Quantrill]

You are saying people who are tortured will give up on Christ.
Impossible.
Jesus will be right there with us to the end.
That's what you lack in faith.

You have it backwards.

Please read through the various post's.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Picking up from my post #(63).

The warning given in (Heb. 4:1) pertained to entering the 'rest of God'. Not Heaven. The rest of God being the believer coming to a place of spiritual maturity whereby he walks by faith, in the Spirit, and is at rest with God, knowing God has already done all the work and the believer rests in that.

So, getting back to (Heb. 6:1-2), Paul is saying we must leave the elementary things we have learned about God. Which, by the way, are the very things most believers consider the deep things of God. (6:1-2) What does that tell you?

Paul then says in (Heb. 6:3) "And this will we do, if God permit". What does that mean? It means God may not permit it. Permit what? The "going on unto perfection". (6:1) The going on to spiritual maturity.

Why wouldn't God permit it, the going on to spiritual maturity? Because, as (Heb. 6:4-5) says, they had experienced first hand God and all his wondrous miracles on their behalf. They had experienced and seen the power of God. Yet when the time came, their faith was weak. Not enough to believe God concerning the entrance into the promised land. They fell away. (6:6)

Therefore, "it is impossible...If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance" (Heb. 6:4-6)

Note that God didn't say it is impossible to save these. God didn't say it is impossible to justify these. He said, it is impossible to allow them to repent. Repent of what? Refusing to go into the Rest of God. The Promised Land. Spiritual maturity.

Now, we see that perfectly recorded. After the people refused to go into the land due to the bad report of the spies, and God judged these men and killed them, (Nu. 14:37), then the people had a sudden change of heart. (Nu. 14:39-40) They tried to repent. But God said no. (Nu. 14:42) Then they went anyway and were smitten by their enemies. (Nu. 14:44-45) God would not allow them to repent.

That doesn't mean they were not saved and not going to Heaven. It means they could not enter the promised land, where they would walk in spiritual maturity.

Thus you see that the warning is serious, in that it speaks to not entering into spiritual maturity as a believer here. But it in no way means the loss of salvation. That is already accomplished at the Passover. Christ our Passover.

Quantrill

 

[JLB]

I am saying they are liars under torture.

Yes I know what you said and I quoted what the scripture says.


He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Revelation 21:7-8


He who overcomes.... but the cowardly... and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”



Overcome means we keep the faith in Christ even if we must die as martyrs.


That is what being a witness means.





JLB

 

[Quantrill]

Picking up from post #(75).

Focus on (Heb. 6:6) "If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

All are probably familiar with Moses and the Rock in the wilderness. In (Ex. 17:1-7), while coming out of Egypt and on their way to Sinai, the people had no water and started complaining to Moses. Moses turned to God and God told him He would stand upon the Rock in Horeb and Moses was to smite the Rock. And water would come out. (17:6) And the place was called Meribah because of the people complaining against God.

Later after the incident at Kadesh-Barnea, and Israel was confined to wilderness wandering, they once again were in a place where there was no water. (Num. 20:2-13) And once again the people complained to Moses. And, once again Moses and Aaron prayed to God. And God said to Moses to take the same Rock he smote at Horeb, and this time speak to the Rock.

But both Moses and Aaron were angry from the people's complaining. And Moses, instead of speaking to the Rock, smote the Rock just as he did the first time. (Num. 20:10) Now we are told specifically in (1 Cor. 10:4) that that Rock was Christ.

So, you can understand that Moses was guilty of 'crucifying the Son of God afresh and put him to an open shame'. Moses smote the Rock the first time. This speaks to the crucifixion of Christ. He was then supposed to speak to the Rock. This speaks to a relationship with Christ. Instead he smote it, which speaks to smiting Christ again. Moses was guilty of the very sin described in (Heb. 6:4-6)

And God, being who He is, merciful to His failing people, sent the water anyway. (Nu. 20:11) But God was angry with Moses and Aaron because of the smiting of the Rock instead of speaking to it. And guess what sin they were charged with. (Nu. 20:12) "Because ye believed me not". They were charged with unbelief. They were guilty of the same unbelief that Israel was guilty of at Kadesh-barnea as described in (Heb. 3:7-19) And as a result, God would not allow Moses or Aaron into the promised land either. They too would die in the wilderness. (Nu. 20:12)

And, Moses, just like Israel at Kadesh-barnea, tried to repent. He prayed to Go to let him go over to the land. (Deut. 3:23-27) But God was adamant and told him No. He would not allow Moses to go into the promised land. And God told him not to ask Him of this anymore. (3:26) In other words, God would not allow Moses to repent.

Is there anyone here who believes Moses lost his salvation and is in hell? After all, he was later seen with Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration. I surely hope none believe that. It was a serious thing and Moses felt it, but it wasn't the loss of salvation.

Point being, (Heb. 6:4-6) does not pertain to a believer losing his salvation.

Quantrill

 

[Randy]

Yes. Again this warning is to Christians who claim to have eternal life, but disregard keeping His commandments.

It’s a wonderful admonition that brings clarity to us. Many Christian’s are taught false doctrine that deceives them into thinking we don’t need to keep His commandments, and they end up being removed from Christ by God the Father.


“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;...


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

We must remain “in Christ” if we expect to continue to have eternal life.



If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6



He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1 John 5:12






JLB

We do know Him and can not unknow that truth. I do agree that the anointing would teach us to remain in Him.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them. 19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one. 20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

 

[Randy]

Those that leave the faith do so because of unbelief. They never really were Jesus's disciples they did not belong to Him. If they did belong to Him they would have known with certainty the truth and held to the testimony of Christ. They would have had the witness from God's Spirit to their spirit. They can not unknown that witness. They can not be deceived away from Christ Jesus. They would know Jesus lives and reigns.

Ref 1JOHN
John is writing his letter to those who do belong. Some were trying to lead them astray. He speaks of anti christ's. He gives instruction on how to distinguish between those who belong versus those that do not belong. John speaks of those who left because they didn't belong. John gives the warning to remain in Christ. At this point its a new faith in a pagan world with no NT. John states we know we belong because of the Spirit God has given us. John states the world is under the control of the evil one as opposed to those who are born of God who do not continue to sin whom Jesus keeps safe from the evil one.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, it does speak of something different. But they are serious warnings. Many hold the view that these are 'professors but not possessors' of the Christian faith. But I disagree.

And I agree with you.
The Jews, in Hebrews 6 WERE practicing "christianity".

I don't know if I mentioned in my previous post that someone can always come back to our faith and God will be waiting with open arms...however it does seem to me that once someone leaves, it's not likely that there will be a return - but each case is different.

By leave I don't mean a temporary "falling out" with God. Someone might get really mad for some reason - a death, a sickness, - but in their heart God remains and is not abandoned totally and that person does become penitent and does return to a full relationship.

I do believe that (Hebrews) is speaking to born-again Jews. Paul refers to them as 'holy brethren'. (Heb. 3:1) Plus he constantly uses the term 'we' throughout (Hebrews). And remember James, who wrote the book of (James) was leader of the church in Jerusalem. But he and that church still followed the law. (Acts 15:5) (15:13) And he was instrumental in causing Paul to stumble in also going back to the law. (Acts 21:17-26)

How do you know that James still followed the law?
You mentioned Acts 15:5,,,,James was a member of the Pharisees??
Also, I don't understand how Acts 15:13 shows that James was following the law.

Myself, I am convinced that Paul wrote (Hebrews), and wrote it to the church at Jerusalem. The only reason he didn't put his name to it was that he knew what the response of the Jews would be to it.

Quantrill

I'm not sure Paul wrote Hebrews.
Most scholars attribute just 6 or 7 of the epistles to him.
Frankly, it matters not to me because, in any case, it was written by someone that knew Paul and the Early Fathers that put together the bible saw fit to include it in the N.T.