A Question For Non-Believers

[Randy]

During that short while that they believed...
do you think they were saved?

I only consider those who have the Spirit of Christ in them to be in the faith. So no they didn't know Jesus and He didn't know them.


Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?

To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.

 

[Randy]

In the context Jesus used Nicodemus was neither a sinner or tax collector but He needed to be born again to enter the kingdom of God.

But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law who belonged to their sect complained to his disciples, “Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?”

31Jesus answered them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 32I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”

This was written to Christians. Why is Paul asking?
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?

 

[dashboardchic19]

There may be some reason why someone has left the faith....
It would be interesting to know why...
the reason doesn't have to be personal...maybe we've all known someone that,
for some reason or another is no longer a believer.
What could that reason be?

One question I'd have and would really like to understand is this:

If you do not believe in the existence of God...then how would you explain everything
you see around you?

What created the universe? How did it come about?

Dawkins, for instance, is great at being a well-known atheist, but he has no answer.

Ideas from believers are welcomed too.

I have doubts, but the fact that we are here makes me think God exists. Something couldn’t come from nothing. Energy cannot be created or destroyed only transformed or transferred. There had to be an energy that started it all and maybe that energy was God?

 

[Quantrill]

You couldn’t be more wrong.


For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
Hebrews 6:4-6


You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. Galatians 5:4

• In Christ = Joined to Christ; one spirit with Him. Have the Spirit
• Severed from Christ = No longer in Christ, No longer joined to Christ; No longer have the Spirit.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. John 15:2




JLB

There are many warnings in the book of (Hebrews) that are used by Christians to teach that you can lose your salvation. I disagree with that. That they are serious warnings, yes. That you lose your salvation, no.

I am always amazed that those who disagree with OSAS, usually believe once you turn away, you can never return. In other words they believe in the finality of their unbelief, but not the finality of belief.

It is a long discussion, perhaps for another thread topic. As I don't know if it would be derailing the opening post.

Quantrill

 

[JLB]

Its also written
I think they have be enlightened even participated in ministry but did not know Jesus. I also think history shows when church and state are fused in any religion hypocrisy reigns. They showed on the outside like white washed tombs but on the inside they were full of dry bones.

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

I have already agreed with you on this scripture. Their are certainly people who ”never knew Him”.

Again, this is not the subject I am discussing.

That is another subject. When people try and blend these two subjects together, then their is confusion and strife and division.


Identifying the context and rightly dividing the subject matter is crucial to having a good discussion that brings about understanding.



Falling away, ie departing Christ because they are being persecuted, and give n to the temptation to return to Judaism, a religion that openly rejects Christ as Messiah and the Son of God, is a different subject than a person becoming lost because they are caught up in sin, and wander away from the truth.

Its also another subject altogether, for a person to give heed to false doctrine being promoted by Jews who are trying to convince Gentiles to become circumcised and keep the law of Moses in order to be saved.


You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. Galatians 5:4

• In Christ = Joined to Christ; one spirit with Him. Have the Spirit
• Severed from Christ = No longer in Christ, No longer joined to Christ; No longer have the Spirit.

JLB

 

[JLB]

I may not know the difference between Judaism and being Jewish.
It seems the same to me.

I see the difference when we speak of Zionism.

Paul was a Jew who was sent out by God as an apostle to preach the Gospel.


Judaism as a religion rejects Jesus as the Messiah.


The Talmud teaches that Jesus is boiling in His own feces in hell as a deceiver and false prophet.


Judaism rejects the New Testament as inspired.


Those who practice Judaism want to build the Third Temple in JeruSalem and return to animal sacrifices, claiming if they do this, their messiah will come; And he will.










JLB

 

[JLB]

There are many warnings in the book of (Hebrews) that are used by Christians to teach that you can lose your salvation. I disagree with that. That they are serious warnings, yes. That you lose your salvation, no.

I am always amazed that those who disagree with OSAS, usually believe once you turn away, you can never return. In other words they believe in the finality of their unbelief, but not the finality of belief.

It is a long discussion, perhaps for another thread topic. As I don't know if it would be derailing the opening post.

Quantrill

Returning to Judaism, after being saved and filled with the Spirit, because of pressure from friends and family members who do not believe, or being threatened with death, means you depart from Christ and renounce Him as a false teacher and false messiah.


Surely you understand this puts Christ to an open shame, in which the person who does this can not be brought back to repentance.


For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
Hebrews 6:4-6



All throughout the dark ages and even today in third world countries, people have suffered greatly as martyrs, refusing to renounce Jesus Christ as Lord, while enduring torture being faithful to the end, because they know the truth about what happens to those who depart from Christ under persecution.



“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 24:9-13





JLB

 

[Randy]

Returning to Judaism, after being saved and filled with the Spirit, because of pressure from friends and family members who do not believe, or being threatened with death, means you depart from Christ and renounce Him as a false teacher and false messiah.


Surely you understand this puts Christ to an open shame, in which the person who does this can not be brought back to repentance.


For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
Hebrews 6:4-6



All throughout the dark ages and even today in third world countries, people have suffered greatly as martyrs, refusing to renounce Jesus Christ as Lord, while enduring torture being faithful to the end, because they know the truth about what happens to those who depart from Christ under persecution.



“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 24:9-13





JLB

Well I tire of discussing it. I still maintain that those who are a new creation as in Christ in us can not be deceived away from Jesus. And God is faithful He will not let more come upon us so that we can't endure. He makes a way of escape so we can endure.

 

[JLB]

Well I tire of discussing it. I still maintain that those who are a new creation as in Christ in us can not be deceived away from Jesus. And God is faithful He will not let more come upon us so that we can't endure. He makes a way of escape so we can endure.

If we choose to take the way of escape, we can. God never forces us.


God certainly is faithful. Its not about that. The way we remain in Christ is to obey.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24



JLB

 

[Randy]

If we choose to take the way of escape, we can. God never forces us.


God certainly is faithful. Its not about that. The way we remain in Christ is to obey.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24



JLB

I agree the anointing in us teaches us to remain in Christ. I don't agree that one born again can be deceived away from Christ. So if one who is born again leaves the faith its with the full knowledge of the truth. I find that to be highly unlikely condition but I won't state impossible.

 

[JLB]

I agree the anointing in us teaches us to remain in Christ. I don't agree that one born again can be deceived away from Christ. So if one who is born again leaves the faith its with the full knowledge of the truth. I find that to be highly unlikely condition but I won't state impossible.

Ok brother.


God bless you.



For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 2 Peter 2:20-21




JLB

 

[Quantrill]

Returning to Judaism, after being saved and filled with the Spirit, because of pressure from friends and family members who do not believe, or being threatened with death, means you depart from Christ and renounce Him as a false teacher and false messiah.


Surely you understand this puts Christ to an open shame, in which the person who does this can not be brought back to repentance.


For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
Hebrews 6:4-6



All throughout the dark ages and even today in third world countries, people have suffered greatly as martyrs, refusing to renounce Jesus Christ as Lord, while enduring torture being faithful to the end, because they know the truth about what happens to those who depart from Christ under persecution.



“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 24:9-13





JLB

I disagree.

I am sure there are many Christians who have fallen away. I'm sure there are many Christians who, under torture, denounced Christ. Didn't make them not Christians. Just made a liar out of them. Torture can do that.

Yes, the Book of (Hebrews) is to Jewish believers, Christians, who were turning back, due to pressure from Jews, to the Mosaic system of Law centered in the Temple. But, of course it has application to all Christians, Jew or Gentile. The Gentile equivalent to (Hebrews) is the book of (Galatians). (Gal. 1:6-7)

The point Paul is making in (Heb. 6) is that the Christian must go on in the faith. He lists the elementary things of the faith in (Heb. 6:1-2) and says having known these we must now go on unto perfection. (6:1) Perfection is not being without sin, but is maturity. Spiritual maturity.

Paul is warning these Hebrew Christians that if you turn back to the Law, you are not going onward to maturity with God, but you are going back to those elementary things, which will now do nothing for you.

So, my point in this post is to show it is not ones initial salvation that is in question. It is ones going on to perfection, to spiritual maturity.

Quantrill

 

[Randy]

Ok brother.


God bless you.



For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 2 Peter 2:20-21




JLB

There is a difference of knowing the knowledge of the truth then having a personal relationship with Christ as in a new creation born of God. There is a reason Jesus said His sheep hear His voice. They can not be deceived away from Him. Those who hold to the testimony of Jesus and obey His commands show themselves to be really His disciples.

"We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them

Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son

Those who hold to the teachings of Christ show themselves to be really Jesus disciples.

To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.

 

[Randy]

Gods solution
“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”

Jesus =>Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

As I stated I share Jude's confidence.

Now to him who is able to keep you from falling, and to make you stand without blemish in the presence of his glory with rejoicing, to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, power, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

 

[JLB]

I am sure there are many Christians who have fallen away. I'm sure there are many Christians who, under torture, denounced Christ. Didn't make them not Christians. Just made a liar out of them. Torture can do that.

According to your words...



He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Revelation 21:7

• all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

JLB

 

[JLB]

There is a difference of knowing the knowledge of the truth then having a personal relationship with Christ as in a new creation born of God. There is a reason Jesus said His sheep hear His voice. They can not be deceived away from Him. Those who hold to the testimony of Jesus and obey His commands show themselves to be really His disciples.

Is there some other way of escaping the corruption of this world?


For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 2 Peter 2:20


Only a born again Spirit filled Christian can be free from the corrupting pollution of the world.



JLB

 

[Quantrill]

According to your words...



He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Revelation 21:7

• all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

JLB

No. That was not 'according to my words'. I had much to say about (Heb. 6) which you ignored and simply selected some piece of what I said that you believe you have advantage over. There are all kinds of liars. Correct?

But, to address what you said, are you saying you are not a liar? Are you saying satan has never been able to bring before God and Christ the accusation that you lied as a believer? Go ahead...lie to me.

Rahab the harlot, as a believer, lied. (Josh. 2:1-5) I guess you think she will be in the Lake of Fire? Yet the LORD didn't see it that way. (Josh. 6:17) (Heb. 11:31) (James 2:25)

David had a problem with lying. (Ps. 119:29) I guess his destiny is the Lake of Fire also?

David loved the women. Committed adultery and murder. Was he a liar, murderer, adulterer? Do you think David will be in the Lake of Fire?

And what of Samson? If God ever needed him He had to go to a bar or brothel to find him. Is the Lake of Fire Samson's destiny also?

So, no. Not according to my words. But according to your legalistic presentation of one thing I said. Does satan ever come before God and accuse you of any sins? Does he? And what do you believe is God's response? Then Christ's response.

Please be honest, as I know you don't like liars.

Quantrill

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I was saved since I was 2 years old
What do I know about walking away from the faith
However, I do agree that everyone is responsible for themselves
No excuses
No where in the world

He's so high you can't get over him
He's so low you can't get under him
He's so wide you can't get around him
If you make your bed in hell he's there
If you make your bed in heaven he's there
He's here and he is every where

 

[GodsGrace]

I disagree.

I am sure there are many Christians who have fallen away. I'm sure there are many Christians who, under torture, denounced Christ. Didn't make them not Christians. Just made a liar out of them. Torture can do that.

Yes, the Book of (Hebrews) is to Jewish believers, Christians, who were turning back, due to pressure from Jews, to the Mosaic system of Law centered in the Temple. But, of course it has application to all Christians, Jew or Gentile. The Gentile equivalent to (Hebrews) is the book of (Galatians). (Gal. 1:6-7)

The point Paul is making in (Heb. 6) is that the Christian must go on in the faith. He lists the elementary things of the faith in (Heb. 6:1-2) and says having known these we must now go on unto perfection. (6:1) Perfection is not being without sin, but is maturity. Spiritual maturity.

Paul is warning these Hebrew Christians that if you turn back to the Law, you are not going onward to maturity with God, but you are going back to those elementary things, which will now do nothing for you.

So, my point in this post is to show it is not ones initial salvation that is in question. It is ones going on to perfection, to spiritual maturity.

Quantrill

Hi Quantrill....

Hebrews 6 is sometimes used to show that once someone leaves the faith, he can no longer return to it.

This cannot be true because we know that the Prodigal Son returned to his father and was accepted. Of course, the father in this parable would be God and the Prodigal son is any one of us that leaves the faith and then wants to repent and return. Also, we might commit a big sin and ask forgiveness and God will be faithful and forgive us our sins. John assures us of our forgiveness in his epistle. 1 John 2:1.

So Hebrews must be speaking of something different.

Hebrews 6:4-6
4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

I believe Hebrews is speaking only of the Jews that had heard and seen Jesus and wanted to follow Him.
But then they had second thoughts and considered going back to the Law. This is like saying that what Jesus had accomplished was not worthy and that they trusted their laws and old ways more and thought that method of salvation was better. This is why it states that it's like crucifying Jesus again. If the Jews did turn back to their old ways...it would surely be unlikely that they would ever want to return to Christ again since they understood clearly what they were doing in turning away from Him.

 

[GodsGrace]

Paul was a Jew who was sent out by God as an apostle to preach the Gospel.


Judaism as a religion rejects Jesus as the Messiah.


The Talmud teaches that Jesus is boiling in His own feces in hell as a deceiver and false prophet.


Judaism rejects the New Testament as inspired.


Those who practice Judaism want to build the Third Temple in JeruSalem and return to animal sacrifices, claiming if they do this, their messiah will come; And he will.










JLB

Yes,,,I've heard of some that even practice sacrifices to this day...it's a sect I'm not really familiar with.

I've always thought it interesting how we're waiting for Jesus and the Jews are waiting for the Messiah.
Only for one group it will be a return, and for the other a first and last time.
But we're both waiting.