A Question For Non-Believers

[Randy]

Lets do it this way. JBL and Wondering examine yourselves. Can you think for a moment that a POSSIBILITY EXISTS that you could walk away from Jesus as in go atheist or proclaim another faith? For myself I state NO.
I am stating this: Its not possible to be deceived away from Jesus for those who have the Spirit of Christ living in them.

And Jesus spoke of those who prophesied in His name that called Him Lord Lord that He never knew.

Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’


Bart Ehrman is such a person who proclaimed he once was a born again Christian. He has left the faith and has become adversarial to the faith.

"how can one have the Spirit of Christ in them and not know Jesus lives?"

 

[JLB]

Thanks for explaining that Hebrews 6:4-6 was for Jews that began to doubt that the new faith might be wrong and were returning to the Jewish origins and forsaking Christ.

Many take this verse to teach that if we fall away, we can never return to God.
This, of course, is incorrect because God desires that none should perish (1 Timothy 2:4) and will always be happy to take us back. (the Prodigal Son was welcomed back).

Also, you mention about falling away as being conditional by the word IF.
"IF they fall away" - On different occasions Paul used the word IF.
IF we fall away...means that we CAN fall away.

Those who did not go back to their Jewish roots were those that would not draw back...Paul encourages them.

“Jewish roots” is one thing, returning to Judaism, a religion that openly denies Jesus as the Messiah, and Son of God, claiming He is a false teacher and a deceiver, is what I am referring to.


This is what Judaism teaches.


Those who are born again, and have received the Holy Spirit because they have believed the good word of God, the Gospel Message, then return to Judaism because they are being persecuted by their countrymen, and renounce Jesus Christ they can no longer be brought back to repentance and have put Christ to an open shame.


For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. Hebrews 6:4-8





JLB

 

[JLB]

I am stating this: Its not possible to be deceived away from Jesus for those who have the Spirit of Christ living in them.

Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14


again


But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:13



The “temptation” Jesus is referring to is to desert, by renouncing Christ while being persecuted by unbelieving Jews, in order to save their life so they can live a little longer.


“Depart from” or “fall away” are the same word in the original and in the Greek means to desert.


If a soldier deserts while on the battlefield to try and save his life so he can live a little longer, does that mean he was never in the army to begin with?


Certainly not. On the contrary a person must first be in the army, in order to desert.



JLB

 

[Randy]

Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14


again


But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:13



The “temptation” Jesus is referring to is to desert, by renouncing Christ while being persecuted by unbelieving Jews, in order to save their life so they can live a little longer.


“Depart from” or “fall away” are the same word in the original and in the Greek means to desert.


If a soldier deserts while on the battlefield to try and save his life so he can live a little longer, does that mean he was never in the army to begin with?


Certainly not. On the contrary a person must first be in the army, in order to desert.



JLB

Whoever says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person

Clearly there are those who claim Christ that don't know Him and depart.

To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.

So holding to the testimony and obeying show those who really know and belong to Christ.

 

[JLB]

Clearly there are those who claim Christ that don't know Him

Agreed.


But that is not what we are discussing.


We are discussing people who depart from Christ.

(How do you depart from Christ if you were never in Him)

People who are in Christ, then later on are no longer in Christ;
ie removed from Christ, severed from Christ.

I know you understand the difference.


If you need me to go over the passages that speak about Ths, just let me know.


Again, we are not discussing someone who was never in Christ; IOW “never knew Him”.


Also the phrase “I know Him” means having eternal life.
See John 17:3


Now back to the verse 1 John 2:4


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 1 John 2:4-5


John includes himself in this admonition.

Why would an apostle of Jesus Christ be expecting unbelievers who do not know Him, to be keeping His commandments?


This is written to born again Christians, people who are in Christ, teaching them about remaining “in Christ”.




Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Its not possible to unknow the witness of the Spirit. Therefore, have ever you want to state it, those that fall away never had the witness/relationship. To me they never belonged. So if Jesus asked the Father to protect them from the evil one, those that believe in Him with certainty, who is it strong enough to snatch them away from His hand as in no longer "believing" in Him?

Here is a trustworthy saying:

If we died with him,

we will also live with him;

12if we endure,

we will also reign with him.

If we disown him,

he will also disown us;

13if we are faithless,

he remains faithful,

for he cannot disown himself.

I don't think anyone could snatch us away from God...not even satan.
Because, in one way or another, when one leaves the faith, somehow satan is involved.

However, I do believe we have the free will to walk away if we decide to. Our free will is not taken away once we become born again...we retain it to do as we wish.

Above you posted 2 Timothy 2:11-13
Verse 11 says that if we died with Him we will also live with Him.

IF we disown Him, He will also disown us.
This means that it's possible to disown Him...
You even highlighted these two sentences.
What do YOU think it means?


Verse 12 says that IF we endure we will reign with Him.
This means that it's possible NOT to endure.

Verse 13 means that God is faithful to His word...His word does not teach OSAS, or eternal salvation. It's eternal for as long as we endure and for as long as we do not disown Him.

IF we disown Him,
He disowns us.

IF we endure,
we will reign with Him.

 

[Randy]

I don't think anyone could snatch us away from God...not even satan.
Because, in one way or another, when one leaves the faith, somehow satan is involved.

However, I do believe we have the free will to walk away if we decide to. Our free will is not taken away once we become born again...we retain it to do as we wish.

Above you posted 2 Timothy 2:11-13
Verse 11 says that if we died with Him we will also live with Him.

IF we disown Him, He will also disown us.
This means that it's possible to disown Him...
You even highlighted these two sentences.
What do YOU think it means?


Verse 12 says that IF we endure we will reign with Him.
This means that it's possible NOT to endure.

Verse 13 means that God is faithful to His word...His word does not teach OSAS, or eternal salvation. It's eternal for as long as we endure and for as long as we do not disown Him.

IF we disown Him,
He disowns us.

IF we endure,
we will reign with Him.

As I stated the anointing would teach us to remain in Jesus. Why would someone who is a new creation born of God disown the truth they know with certainty? You stated Satan would not be involved. I state those who leave the faith to go atheist or to proclaim another faith have never known Jesus. Jesus stated many who call Him Lord Lord He never knew. John stated those that claim to know Jesus but do not do what He states are liars.
Jesus stated those who hold to His teaching show to be really His disciples. That added to Johns statement means those who hold to the testimony of Jesus and obey His commands show that they belong to Jesus and are really His disciples.

 

[daninthelionsden]

I was a strong believer until I left the RCC at the age of 19. I no longer believed and in fact spoke out against the Bible and ridiculed God. I remember getting a writing assignment from a college English teacher and I chose to discuss what I saw as contradictions and untruths in the Bible. I had never read the Bible until I was preparing for that assignment. I actually got an A on my work even though the professor disagreed with my points of view.

Looking back now, I still struggle with the question of why I stopped believing. A think a major part of it was that I was never taught about having a relationship with Jesus. Another part was the contradictions and inconsistencies I saw within the Catholic church and with fellow church members.

Yeah, many churches leave out that most important part of Christianity, our relationship with Christ.

 

[Randy]

"I" have not used OSAS. I gave a example Bart Erhman. He claimed to have once been a born again Christian. He has left the faith. He is antagonistic toward the faith. He knows what born again means. How could he have the Spirit of Christ in Him and not know Jesus lives? How could He once claim a position that he doesn't even believe is real? He never knew Jesus.
Its not possible to unknow the witness of the Spirit to our spirit as in walking away to become a atheist or take up another faith. Such people who claimed to have been a Christian and did so never belonged to Christ Jesus. They didn't know Him and Jesus never knew them.

In regard to endure. I think the Apostles endured. We read of people sawed in two and those that remained faithful to Jesus who were beheaded in Rev. So the possibility may exist for those who are so afraid of persecutions they lie in their denial of knowing Christ to save their lives?? But they can never be "deceived" away from Jesus if they have the Spirit of Christ in them. Even the powerful delusion of the lie of the beast will not deceive them.

YET
No testing has overtaken you that is not common to everyone. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tested beyond your strength, but with the testing he will also provide the way out so that you may be able to endure it.

 

[JLB]

Its not possible to unknow the witness of the Spirit to our spirit as in walking away to become a atheist or take up another faith.

You couldn’t be more wrong.


For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
Hebrews 6:4-6


You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. Galatians 5:4

• In Christ = Joined to Christ; one spirit with Him. Have the Spirit
• Severed from Christ = No longer in Christ, No longer joined to Christ; No longer have the Spirit.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. John 15:2




JLB

 

[Randy]

You couldn’t be more wrong.


For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
Hebrews 6:4-6


You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. Galatians 5:4

• In Christ = Joined to Christ; one spirit with Him. Have the Spirit
• Severed from Christ = No longer in Christ, No longer joined to Christ; No longer have the Spirit.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. John 15:2




JLB

Its also written
I think they have be enlightened even participated in ministry but did not know Jesus. I also think history shows when church and state are fused in any religion hypocrisy reigns. They showed on the outside like white washed tombs but on the inside they were full of dry bones.

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

I asked you to ask your self the question is it possible for you to become a unbeliever or take up another faith. Can you forget the witness of the Spirit?
My answer is no. And I am far from alone.

In order to be considered a real disciple in Christ and know the truth that sets you free you have to be one who holds to the testimony and one who obeys Jesus.

If I were to deny Jesus, and I won't, but if I did it, then it would be a lie as I can not unknow the relationship and witness from Him to me by His Spirit. I know Him. I know He lives and reigns forever.

Those that say they know Him but do not do what He commands are liars.

Jesus =>Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.
Jesus=>My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one

One who is a new creation and has the witness of the Spirit is such a person that believes with certainty in Jesus. Such a one belongs to those who have faith and are saved. Not those who do not believe and shrink back.

Yes, we need to persevere and endure but we are not alone in that as He that is in us is greater then He that is in the world.

He is able to rescue us.

Jude and I share this confidence ,not in us alone ,but in God our Father through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Now to him who is able to keep you from falling, and to make you stand without blemish in the presence of his glory with rejoicing, to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, power, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

 

[GodsGrace]

As I stated the anointing would teach us to remain in Jesus. Why would someone who is a new creation born of God disown the truth they know with certainty? You stated Satan would not be involved.

I stated satan would not be involved?
Here is what I said:

I don't think anyone could snatch us away from God...not even satan.
Because, in one way or another, when one leaves the faith, somehow satan is involved.

Satan tries to snatch everyone away from God. If we hold tight to our faith and are aware of this...we use God's shield as we are told to do in
Ephesians 6:14-16
14Stand firm therefore, having belted your waist with truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness,
15and having strapped on your feet the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.

However, yes, I believe that those that depart from the faith do not use the shield of God, or no longer wish to.
I don't say that it's easy to abandon the God that we love....but I have seen some that do leave the faith.
Maybe they were never really saved to begin with -- I'm sure some were not.
But Jesus Himself stated that some disciples would not believe....
as in John 6:64. Jesus said that there were some that would not believe.
But in other verses of the N.T. Jesus said that those that DID believe would leave the faith.
The lost lamb left the pack.
The Prodigal Son left (and the returned AGAIN).
The seed that fell on the rocky soil believed FOR A WHILE, and then fell away due to temptation.

In Luke 9:62 Jesus stated that those that look back are not fit to be in the Kingdom of God. This means that some do look back and consider departing...maybe because they didn't count the cost...
Luke 14:28-30...
Maybe due to temptation as He stated in Luke 8:13.

I state those who leave the faith to go atheist or to proclaim another faith have never known Jesus. Jesus stated many who call Him Lord Lord He never knew. John stated those that claim to know Jesus but do not do what He states are liars.
Jesus stated those who hold to His teaching show to be really His disciples. That added to Johns statement means those who hold to the testimony of Jesus and obey His commands show that they belong to Jesus and are really His disciples.

Some of the disciples left in
John 6:66
66As a result of this many of His disciples left, and would no longer walk with Him.

They were walking with Him and learning from Him...they were disciples...
but decided to leave Him.

I can tell that you're a person that loves our Lord and follows His commandments and are not one of those that feel they could live as they please and still be saved - so I won't go on about this.

However, I just don't believe it's a biblical truth. I know some pastors/preachers that state one could never become lost again, like Charles Stanley. But this just is not so...please see what the ECF's knew about this. They learned from the Apostles.

2 Peter 1:20-21
“Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.”

Some statements by the early men taught by the Apostles and those that came after them...

“And pray ye without ceasing in behalf of other men; for there is hope of the repentance, that they may attain to God. For ‘cannot he that falls arise again, and he may attain to God.’” (Ignatius of Antioch, To the Ephesians, A.D.110)

“Watch for your life’s sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ye ready, for ye know not the hour in which our Lord cometh. But often shall ye come together, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time.” (Didache, A.D.140)
[it is currently believed that the Didache has been placed at about 90 AD]

“That eternal fire has been prepared for him as he apostatized from God of his own free-will, and likewise for all who unrepentant continue in the apostasy, he now blasphemes, by means of such men, the Lord who brings judgment [upon him] as being already condemned, and imputes the guilt of his apostasy to his Maker, not to his own voluntary disposition.” (Justin Martyr, fragment in Irenaeus’ Against Heresies, 5:26:1, A.D.156)

“Christ shall not die again in behalf of those who now commit sin, for death shall no more have dominion over Him; but the Son shall come in the glory of the Father, requiring from His stewards and dispensers the money which He had entrusted to them, with usury; and from those to whom He had given most shall He demand most. We ought not, therefore, as that presbyter remarks, to be puffed up, nor be severe upon those of old time, but ought ourselves to fear, lest perchance, after [we have come to] the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins, but be shut out from His kingdom. And therefore it was that Paul said, ‘For if [God] spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest He also spare not thee, who, when thou wert a wild olive tree, wert grafted into the fatness of the olive tree, and wert made a partaker of its fatness.’” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4:27:2 A.D. 180)

source: https://safeguardyoursoul.com/what-early-church-fathers-said-about-eternal-security/

 

[GodsGrace]

"I" have not used OSAS. I gave a example Bart Erhman. He claimed to have once been a born again Christian. He has left the faith. He is antagonistic toward the faith. He knows what born again means. How could he have the Spirit of Christ in Him and not know Jesus lives? How could He once claim a position that he doesn't even believe is real? He never knew Jesus.
Its not possible to unknow the witness of the Spirit to our spirit as in walking away to become a atheist or take up another faith. Such people who claimed to have been a Christian and did so never belonged to Christ Jesus. They didn't know Him and Jesus never knew them.

In regard to endure. I think the Apostles endured. We read of people sawed in two and those that remained faithful to Jesus who were beheaded in Rev. So the possibility may exist for those who are so afraid of persecutions they lie in their denial of knowing Christ to save their lives?? But they can never be "deceived" away from Jesus if they have the Spirit of Christ in them. Even the powerful delusion of the lie of the beast will not deceive them.

YET
No testing has overtaken you that is not common to everyone. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tested beyond your strength, but with the testing he will also provide the way out so that you may be able to endure it.

It's difficult to argue this with someone that claims that a person was "never saved to begin with".

Can't you believe what someone tells you because maybe it would damage your doctrinal position?
If Ehrman says he was a believer..why can't you believe him?
Do you think he doesn't know what being born again means?

Paul clearly states that we could become lost again.
Did you ever consider 2 Peter 2:20-22 ?
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22[p]It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”


I don't know why some cling to this incorrect doctrine...
maybe for fear that one day THEY might depart their own faith?
This cannot happen unless the person wills it to happen.
It's a matter of the will and there should be no fear.
I could never abandon God no matter what, and I believe you're the same.
This does not mean that a person could not....

 

[GodsGrace]

“Jewish roots” is one thing, returning to Judaism, a religion that openly denies Jesus as the Messiah, and Son of God, claiming He is a false teacher and a deceiver, is what I am referring to.


This is what Judaism teaches.


Those who are born again, and have received the Holy Spirit because they have believed the good word of God, the Gospel Message, then return to Judaism because they are being persecuted by their countrymen, and renounce Jesus Christ they can no longer be brought back to repentance and have put Christ to an open shame.


For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. Hebrews 6:4-8





JLB

I may not know the difference between Judaism and being Jewish.
It seems the same to me.

I see the difference when we speak of Zionism.

 

[Randy]

It's difficult to argue this with someone that claims that a person was "never saved to begin with".

Can't you believe what someone tells you because maybe it would damage your doctrinal position?
If Ehrman says he was a believer..why can't you believe him?
Do you think he doesn't know what being born again means?

Paul clearly states that we could become lost again.
Did you ever consider 2 Peter 2:20-22 ?
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22[p]It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”


I don't know why some cling to this incorrect doctrine...
maybe for fear that one day THEY might depart their own faith?
This cannot happen unless the person wills it to happen.
It's a matter of the will and there should be no fear.
I could never abandon God no matter what, and I believe you're the same.
This does not mean that a person could not....

There are some who believe for a short while. They have no root.
But those who "hold" to the testimony of Jesus will know the truth. And that truth will set them free.
If your making a case that someone who is a new creation who has the Spirits witness will fall into unbelief I don't agree. I do believe in those who do not have the Spirit who fall away. Both may claim to know Jesus and be considered a Christian. There is also those just coming into faith which was in the beginning a very pagan world with no NT.

Jesus prayed for those who knew with certainty that He came from God and they believed in Him.

 

[GodsGrace]

Lets do it this way. JBL and Wondering examine yourselves. Can you think for a moment that a POSSIBILITY EXISTS that you could walk away from Jesus as in go atheist or proclaim another faith? For myself I state NO.
I am stating this: Its not possible to be deceived away from Jesus for those who have the Spirit of Christ living in them.

And Jesus spoke of those who prophesied in His name that called Him Lord Lord that He never knew.

Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’


Bart Ehrman is such a person who proclaimed he once was a born again Christian. He has left the faith and has become adversarial to the faith.

"how can one have the Spirit of Christ in them and not know Jesus lives?"

Randy,,,I just saw this .... I wasn't tagged, maybe @JBL never replied to you either...

Oddly enough, I just replied to your question in my last post.
I've encountered problems during my life, and I never left God's side.
But someone else might.
A person could have the Holy Spirit in them (the Spirit of Christ as you call it) and the Holy Spirit will remain with a person for as long as that person wants Him to.

But for various reasons, one could leave our faith.
Some stop believing in God because they see children suffering.
I knew a dr. that told me this about himself.
Maybe they come to have big doubts and decide they can no longer trust the account of the Apostles.

(I wouldn't say Ehrman is adversarial to the faith ---)

 

[Randy]

It's difficult to argue this with someone that claims that a person was "never saved to begin with".

Can't you believe what someone tells you because maybe it would damage your doctrinal position?
If Ehrman says he was a believer..why can't you believe him?
Do you think he doesn't know what being born again means?

Paul clearly states that we could become lost again.
Did you ever consider 2 Peter 2:20-22 ?
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22[p]It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”


I don't know why some cling to this incorrect doctrine...
maybe for fear that one day THEY might depart their own faith?
This cannot happen unless the person wills it to happen.
It's a matter of the will and there should be no fear.
I could never abandon God no matter what, and I believe you're the same.
This does not mean that a person could not....

It means we are really Jesus's disciples. We "hold" to the testimony. Unbelief is the reason people don't hold to the testimony.

 

[GodsGrace]

There are some who believe for a short while. They have no root.
But those who "hold" to the testimony of Jesus will know the truth. And that truth will set them free.
If your making a case that someone who is a new creation who has the Spirits witness will fall into unbelief I don't agree. I do believe in those who do not have the Spirit who fall away. Both may claim to know Jesus and be considered a Christian. There is also those just coming into faith which was in the beginning a very pagan world with no NT.

Jesus prayed for those who knew with certainty that He came from God and they believed in Him.

During that short while that they believed...
do you think they were saved?

 

[GodsGrace]

It means we are really Jesus's disciples. We "hold" to the testimony. Unbelief is the reason people don't hold to the testimony.

Just answer my post no. 38 and then I think we could stop here.
I just don't understand how one could read all the warnings in the N.T. writer's statements and come away thinking a person cannot depart from the faith. One verse even states this clearly:

1 Timothy 4:1
1Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

If you depart from something, it means you had that something at one point - and then you left it.
But, like I said, I'll only argue this with someone that states living a Godly life is not important to salvation and you certainly do not fit into that category.

 

[Randy]

Just answer my post no. 38 and then I think we could stop here.
I just don't understand how one could read all the warnings in the N.T. writer's statements and come away thinking a person cannot depart from the faith. One verse even states this clearly:

1 Timothy 4:1
1Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

If you depart from something, it means you had that something at one point - and then you left it.
But, like I said, I'll only argue this with someone that states living a Godly life is not important to salvation and you certainly do not fit into that category.

There are some in this day and age that depart from the faith. I don't dispute that. One who is born of God cannot be deceived away from Jesus.

How do you read this about the time of the end and the powerful delusion that God sends into the world?

For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.