The likely order of End-Time events according to the Bible

[Alfred Persson]

 

[for_his_glory]

When the son of perdition takes his literal seat in the holy place of Jerusalem, 2Thessalonians 2:1-5, Jesus warned us to flee as He has a place prepared for us wherever we go to, Matthew 24:15-21; Rev 12:14. At this time many Christians will be taken captive that did not heed the warning to flee and if they will not denounce Christ and bow down and take the mark of this beast, who falsely claims peace and safety to all who takes its mark, they will die a martyr's death.

God's protection is absolute to those who are His own and escape into the wilderness as they trust in Christ to help meet their needs. Just as God told Moses to strike the rock for fresh water, Exodus 17:1-7, and sending manna down from heaven and providing Quail for meat, Exodus 16, so will be the same in the end of days, Philippians 4:19.

Nut shell scenario of what will happen during the first six trumpets of Rev Chapter 8-11 that leads up to the seventh trumpet and the 3 1/2 years events of Chapter 13 with the beast out of the sea and out of the earth.

God’s wrath is poured out into the world as chastisements for disobedience, but also a warning that man needs to repent and turn back to God before the door of salvation is closed forever when Christ returns.

Hail and fire can be likened unto meteors that fall from the sky. A third of the trees and all the green grass are burned up which makes a third part of the world with a shortage of oxygen in the air that is created from the carbon dioxide from the trees and living plants. Seeing that this is Global the intense fire and smoke from all the trees and grass burning can travel for miles causing much more damage throughout the nations. The trees that produce various healthy foods for our wellbeing will become scarce. The green grasses that would probably include crops of wheat, barley, corn and so forth will be destroyed causing a shortage in food. The animals we depend on as a food source will also die as they are left without vegetation they need to live on.

This great mountain burning with fire could be a large asteroid as the third part of the sea is destroyed along with sea life and the third part of the ships that sit in it. The third part of the sea turned to blood by reason of all the animal life that is killed and those men, women and children who are on these ships that are destroyed. Take into consideration the disease that would spread from all the rotted sea life that is rotting away washing up on the shore and the flesh of those who were burned along with the ships.

These ships will more than likely be types of fuel tankers, merchant, fishing and luxury cruises ships traveling the waters. With the third of these ships being destroyed means a third part of the world’s fuel and food supply would be destroyed. There is only one ocean, but divided by four regions as being the Pacific Ocean, Atlantic Ocean, Arctic Ocean, and the Indian Ocean. This would be like the four corners of the earth as being North, South, East and West. The only difference between the ocean and the sea is that the ocean is much larger and feeds into the 108 seas around the world that also flow into our lakes and streams that provide us with fresh drinking water and other sources of food.

With the third part of the sun, moon and stars being darkened this will affect mans source of electricity and heat that is vital to keep a certain degree of the earth warm, and generated power in homes, hospitals and manufacturing plants including nuclear reactors.

Agriculture and navigation would be hard pressed as it takes the solar power from the sun to run the solar cells that produces the energy needed to run farming machinery and trucks to take the produce to manufacturing plants where the produce is then distributed to market.

Vehicles such as cars, ambulances, planes, trains and the list goes on need an energy source from the sun in order to run their engines. The darkness of the third part of the day would be roughly around eight hours of daylight being lost and total darkness of night as the moon and stars are illuminated by the sun at night. A flashlight would be useless to see in the dark as it needs energy from the sun to run the battery that turns the light on.

This much darkness would cause people to panic in the streets creating chaos as the love of many will wax cold, Matthew 24:12. Riots would break out causing looting and lose of life as those who have not will do anything in desperation to take from those who have much. IMO Marshal law will be enforced as we see history repeat itself with many Christians taken captive that did not flee and killed as they refuse to denounce Christ and take the mark. They will also die a martyr's death, Rev 6:9-11, especially vs. 11. Also we are not to fear what man can do to us, Matthew 10:28.

This is where the mark of the beast comes in during the seventh trumpet as this NWO is a Luciferian system of economics, political, military, educational, environmental and false religious power that gives power to the beast out of the earth being the son of perdition. By lying signs and wonders the beast will deceive the nations (people) into taking its mark. IMO I think the mark is the thoughts of our mind and the actions of our hands reaching out to this beast that promises peace, safety and provision as many will bow down and worship this beast who claims to be God.

After the 3 1/2 years of this Luciferian reign on earth that will wear out the saints, Daniel 7:25, then every eye will see Christ coming in the clouds with His army of angels that are then sent out to gather those saints who are alive at His coming and those who sleep in their graves, Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Corinthians 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; Rev 19:11-21. We are gathered up to the clouds as we receive our new glorified bodies in order to meet Jesus in the air. From the air He destroys the beast and false prophet by the brightness of His coming only speaking their destruction casting them into the lake of fire. Satan is bound for a time as Jesus sets out to destroy all the nations that followed after the beast. Satan is then released in a final attempt to destroy the saints as he sends his angels out to surround the camp of the saints, but the angels are consumed by fire and Satan cast into the lake of fire. Then comes God's great white throne judgment and the books are opened and all are judged. Then this present heaven and earth are burned up and made new again and the New Jerusalem is ushered down from heaven where we will be with the Lord forever.

 

[Alfred Persson]

When the son of perdition takes his literal seat in the holy place of Jerusalem, 2Thessalonians 2:1-5, Jesus warned us to flee as He has a place prepared for us wherever we go to, Matthew 24:15-21; Rev 12:14. At this time many Christians will be taken captive that did not heed the warning to flee and if they will not denounce Christ and bow down and take the mark of this beast, who falsely claims peace and safety to all who takes its mark, they will die a martyr's death.

God's protection is absolute to those who are His own and escape into the wilderness as they trust in Christ to help meet their needs. Just as God told Moses to strike the rock for fresh water, Exodus 17:1-7, and sending manna down from heaven and providing Quail for meat, Exodus 16, so will be the same in the end of days, Philippians 4:19.

Nut shell scenario of what will happen during the first six trumpets of Rev Chapter 8-11 that leads up to the seventh trumpet and the 3 1/2 years events of Chapter 13 with the beast out of the sea and out of the earth.

God’s wrath is poured out into the world as chastisements for disobedience, but also a warning that man needs to repent and turn back to God before the door of salvation is closed forever when Christ returns.

Hail and fire can be likened unto meteors that fall from the sky. A third of the trees and all the green grass are burned up which makes a third part of the world with a shortage of oxygen in the air that is created from the carbon dioxide from the trees and living plants. Seeing that this is Global the intense fire and smoke from all the trees and grass burning can travel for miles causing much more damage throughout the nations. The trees that produce various healthy foods for our wellbeing will become scarce. The green grasses that would probably include crops of wheat, barley, corn and so forth will be destroyed causing a shortage in food. The animals we depend on as a food source will also die as they are left without vegetation they need to live on.

This great mountain burning with fire could be a large asteroid as the third part of the sea is destroyed along with sea life and the third part of the ships that sit in it. The third part of the sea turned to blood by reason of all the animal life that is killed and those men, women and children who are on these ships that are destroyed. Take into consideration the disease that would spread from all the rotted sea life that is rotting away washing up on the shore and the flesh of those who were burned along with the ships.

These ships will more than likely be types of fuel tankers, merchant, fishing and luxury cruises ships traveling the waters. With the third of these ships being destroyed means a third part of the world’s fuel and food supply would be destroyed. There is only one ocean, but divided by four regions as being the Pacific Ocean, Atlantic Ocean, Arctic Ocean, and the Indian Ocean. This would be like the four corners of the earth as being North, South, East and West. The only difference between the ocean and the sea is that the ocean is much larger and feeds into the 108 seas around the world that also flow into our lakes and streams that provide us with fresh drinking water and other sources of food.

With the third part of the sun, moon and stars being darkened this will affect mans source of electricity and heat that is vital to keep a certain degree of the earth warm, and generated power in homes, hospitals and manufacturing plants including nuclear reactors.

Agriculture and navigation would be hard pressed as it takes the solar power from the sun to run the solar cells that produces the energy needed to run farming machinery and trucks to take the produce to manufacturing plants where the produce is then distributed to market.

Vehicles such as cars, ambulances, planes, trains and the list goes on need an energy source from the sun in order to run their engines. The darkness of the third part of the day would be roughly around eight hours of daylight being lost and total darkness of night as the moon and stars are illuminated by the sun at night. A flashlight would be useless to see in the dark as it needs energy from the sun to run the battery that turns the light on.

This much darkness would cause people to panic in the streets creating chaos as the love of many will wax cold, Matthew 24:12. Riots would break out causing looting and lose of life as those who have not will do anything in desperation to take from those who have much. IMO Marshal law will be enforced as we see history repeat itself with many Christians taken captive that did not flee and killed as they refuse to denounce Christ and take the mark. They will also die a martyr's death, Rev 6:9-11, especially vs. 11. Also we are not to fear what man can do to us, Matthew 10:28.

This is where the mark of the beast comes in during the seventh trumpet as this NWO is a Luciferian system of economics, political, military, educational, environmental and false religious power that gives power to the beast out of the earth being the son of perdition. By lying signs and wonders the beast will deceive the nations (people) into taking its mark. IMO I think the mark is the thoughts of our mind and the actions of our hands reaching out to this beast that promises peace, safety and provision as many will bow down and worship this beast who claims to be God.

After the 3 1/2 years of this Luciferian reign on earth that will wear out the saints, Daniel 7:25, then every eye will see Christ coming in the clouds with His army of angels that are then sent out to gather those saints who are alive at His coming and those who sleep in their graves, Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Corinthians 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; Rev 19:11-21. We are gathered up to the clouds as we receive our new glorified bodies in order to meet Jesus in the air. From the air He destroys the beast and false prophet by the brightness of His coming only speaking their destruction casting them into the lake of fire. Satan is bound for a time as Jesus sets out to destroy all the nations that followed after the beast. Satan is then released in a final attempt to destroy the saints as he sends his angels out to surround the camp of the saints, but the angels are consumed by fire and Satan cast into the lake of fire. Then comes God's great white throne judgment and the books are opened and all are judged. Then this present heaven and earth are burned up and made new again and the New Jerusalem is ushered down from heaven where we will be with the Lord forever.

I was in agreement until you got to the Trumpets. But its a nice read anyway. In my exposition the Trumpets are about the 1/3 of the earth that claims to be Christian. Judgement starts first with the house of God.

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? (1 Pet. 4:17 KJV)

The Revelation Trumpets Herald Events in the Christian Third of the Earth | End Time News

The Seals refer to events in the world, the Revelation Trumpets herald events in Christendom, the bowls events against the kingdom of the Beast. The Seven Trumpets Revelation is a book of prophecy (Rev. 1:3; 22:7, 10, 18-19). Therefore, although Christianity barely existed when John wrote, the...

endtimenews.net

 

[for_his_glory]

First I would like to say scripture never speaks of seven years, but only seven trumpets of God's great wrath being poured out into the world. I see all within the events of the seven trumpets to be very literal and not symbolic. Here is my understanding of the three woes.

The seven trumpets beginning in Revelation 8:6 and ending on the last day when Christ returns are all about Gods wrath being poured out upon all nations and has everything to do with Gods Salvation. Many during this time will repent and turn back to God as they will finally have ears to hear the gospel being preached to them by all those who are still alive at this time and have Gods anointing to preach the Gospel. There are no separate trumpets for the saints and sinners as there are only seven that are sounded by the angels as God sends each one out as the soundings brings in all of Gods wrath upon those who refuse to repent and turn back to Him. God said that He would that none should perish, 2 Peter 3:9. Even though God's longsuffering and patience will come to an end as everyone will have an opportunity to repent as the Gospels will have been preached to everyone, but it is only those who will accept Gods free gift of grace, Ephesians 2:8, by faith will be saved. All Christians including those who at this time of the end have finally accepted Jesus will have eternal life with the Father.

There are three woes in Revelations as each one is worse than the other. The first one starts with the opening of the seventh seal in Rev 8:1 through Rev 9:12 that include the first five trumpets. The second woe starts in Rev 9:13 with the sixth trumpet and ends in Rev 11:14. The third woe starts with the seventh trumpet in Rev 11:15 ending in Rev 20:15.

It's during the sounding of the seventh trumpet as being the last trumpet mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16 that during this last trumpet mystery Babylon being the mother of harlots will be revealed as the the son of perdition will be exposed, 2 Thessalonians 2:3. This is the false prophet as he forces all to bow down to him and take the mark of the beast or face persecution even to death as many saints of God at this time will die a martyr's death for their witness and testimony of Christ. Many who are weak in faith will fall away from Christ as they accept this mark as they fear for their own lives as this is the falling away the scriptures speak of in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 and Hebrews 6:4-6 as many will be deceived as even now by all the false doctrines that are being taught by man.

It's not until after the seven vial judgements, Rev 16, that mystery Babylon the great is exposed, Rev 17, and then destroyed, Rev 18, as Christ returns in the air with His army of angels, Rev 19:11-21, being only the heavenly host (angels) as no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven, John 3:13. At this time on the last day, John 6:40, Christ will destroy the beast and the false prophet, being the son of perdition, casting them into the lake of fire and slaying the remnant, possibly being the leaders of every nation that the beast out of the sea in Rev 13 controls and gives power to as they rule over the nations.

I do not believe in a literal 1000 year reign of Christ when He binds Satan, but it being figurative in its numbering as in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8. I believe at this time of Satan being bound the events of John 5:28, 29, 1 Corinthians 15:51-57; and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 will occur quickly as there is only one resurrection, but two separate judgements. All who are in their graves will hear the voice of Christ to rise as we who are of Christ, alive and in the grave, will be caught up and gathered to Him and will then be judged and given our rewards, 2 Corinthians 5:10, 11. Those of the second death, Revelation 2:11, 20:6, who have rejected Christ will be judged at the Great White Throne judgment as ther names are not found in the Lamb's Book of Life. They are cast into the lake of fire where Satan and his army that he gathered from all nations to battle against the camp of the saints, but have been consumed by the fire sent down from heaven and Satan cast into the lake of fire, Rev 20:7-10. God then proceeds to renew the heaven and earth and ushers down the New Jerusalem where we will be with the Lord for all eternity.

 

[Alfred Persson]

First I would like to say scripture never speaks of seven years, but only seven trumpets of God's great wrath being poured out into the world. I see all within the events of the seven trumpets to be very literal and not symbolic.

The End Time Week is seven years long, it begins with Moses and Elijah preaching for 42 months. Then antichrist ascends out of the abyss of spiritism and kills them. He then reigns for 42 months:

3 "And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."
...
4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.

7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. (Rev. 11:3-7 NKJ)

The first half of the end time week the antichrist is claiming to be "the Christ" so he doesn't kill them. But at mid-week the "man of sin" false Christ declares he is the "son of destruction" antichrist and then he slays God's prophets and begins persecuting the church. Notice the beast begins with a "lions mouth" but after 42 months, becomes the antichrist and is given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemy:

2 Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast.
4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?"
5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.
6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.
7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.
(Rev. 13:2-7 NKJ)

Therefore, the end time week is 7 years long.

 

[Alfred Persson]

The seven trumpets beginning in Revelation 8:6 and ending on the last day when Christ returns are all about Gods wrath being poured out upon all nations and has everything to do with Gods Salvation.

Explain how this is about salvation, all I see is God's wrath which spares only those who have the seal of God on their forehead, or will in the near future, cf. "grass...any green thing or any tree" :
1 Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit.
3 Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
5 And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man.
6 In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them. (Rev. 9:1-6 NKJ)

 

[for_his_glory]

This is the traditional teachings that even I use to believe in, but no longer.

Moses and Elijah are in their graves like everyone else that has ever died.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Enoch, Moses, Abraham and Elijah were not taken up to the third Heaven as some teach as when they were seen (not Enoch or Abraham) of Peter, James and John in Matthew 17:1-9 it was only a transfiguration like a vision that they saw Jesus transfigured as was Moses and Elijah. There is no one in the third heaven except God, Jesus and the angels, John 3:13. Everyone that has ever died is asleep in their grave and when Christ returns they will hear His voice as He calls all of them to come forth. They that have done good, unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation, Matthew 24:29-31; John 5:28, 29; 6:40 It is only our spirit/breath/soul that goes back to God who gave it, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7.

Deuteronomy 34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. 6 and he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Beth-peor: but no man knoweth of his sepulcher unto this day.

2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (Heaven here means atmosphere, first heaven)

Elijah, having ascended into the air (First heaven) by a whirlwind was carried away out of sight beyond the horizon. Several years after he was taken away King Jehoram received a letter from him. How long after? There are some difficulties in figuring the exact chronology as it varies from 2 to 10 years or more. A note in Josephus (a Jewish historian of the first century A.D.) says 4 years, while the JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA figures it at 7 years.

Regardless of the exact number of years there came writing to Jehoram from Elijah the prophet, saying..." (2Chron 21:12). Now the wickedness of Jehoram, for which he was being rebuked in the letter, took place after Elijah was taken away, yet the letter speaks of these things as past events, and the punishment to come upon him as yet future. So the idea of some, that Elijah wrote the letter before he was removed by the whirlwind, is proved wrong.

Elijah was taken up by the whirlwind into the first heaven and transported to another location on Earth. God did not see fit in His purpose to reveal his whereabouts. Chariot of fire is used at times figuratively for host (angels) like in 2 Kings 2:11, 12: 6:17; Psalms 68:17; 104:1-4. Elijah, by his prayers and his counsel was the "chariot of Israel and the horseman thereof", meaning Elijah was the stronghold of Israel, the driving force of God. The Israelite's never used chariots till the time of David.

When you compare 2 Kings 2:11-15 with 2 Kings 6:17 you see that God sent the host/angels down to Elijah who caught him up in a whirlwind and translated him to parts unknown. Several years after he was taken away King Jehoram received a letter from him.

What some people do not know is that there are three heavens. The first heaven is the Atmosphere, the air surrounding the earth. Birds fly "in the heaven" - certainly not to God's throne. We read in Genesis l:2 of "foul that may fly above the Earth in the open firmament of heaven." Jacob, when blessing Isaac, said: "God give you of the dew of heaven," and Moses was joyful that the "heavens shall drop down dew" (Gen.27:28; Deut.33:28). The dew comes from the first heaven - the atmosphere. The second heaven is the expanse of this awesome universe - where the stars, moon and planets are. The Psalmists often wrote about the "Heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon, and the stars, which you have ordained" (Ps.8:3; Gen.1:15-17). The third heaven is where the throne of God exists, where the heavenly temple is found and the heavenly Jerusalem.

2 Chronicles Chapter 21 - Jehoram, being the son of Jehoshaphat, was 32 when he began his reign in Israel. He married Ahab's daughter and was a wicked king who reigned for eight years. According to scripture Elijah was taken up in a whirlwind, 2 Kings 2:11-13. The heaven Elijah went up to was only the first heaven being the atmosphere as there are three heavens described in scripture as the throne of God is in the third heaven. A whirlwind can only happen within the atmosphere of the first heaven. During the reign of Jehoram he received a letter from Elijah, 2 Chronicles 21:12-15. How could he receive a letter from Elijah if he was with God in the third heaven? Elijah being caught up to heaven is the same as Phillip being caught up in the first heaven and carried thirty miles away, Acts 8:39, 40. The only difference is that when the fifty men searched for Elijah they could not find him as he was translated further than their search. Phillip was found within the thirty mile radius where he was translated to.

 

[for_his_glory]

Explain how this is about salvation:
1 Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit.
3 Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
5 And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man.
6 In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them. (Rev. 9:1-6 NKJ)

Who is being saved by the torment of a scorpion?

The star John saw that fell from heaven was an angel as angels are sometimes called stars in scripture. This angel having the key to open the bottomless pit could be the same angel we read about in Revelation 20:1-3 that God gives the key to that opens the bottomless pit where Satan is bound. When the bottomless pit was opened locust came up out of it. In reference to a smoke these locust would be to numerous to number, Judges 7:12, and look like dark smoke as they rise and swarm if you saw them from a distance. Once they became closer to your vision you would see that it wasn’t smoke, but a hoard of locust. Their attributes of what God is purposing them for is what gives them their power to sting as in tormenting those who have not the seal of God on them. They are compared as scorpions that literally sting using the power of their tails as they raise them above their head.

They laughed at Noah until the flood came and all were washed away, even though they could have repented and turned back to God before it was to late. So the same within the seven trumpets sounding that when people see the wrath of God being poured out into the world hopefully many will finally hear the Gospel being preached and turn back to God before the door of God's salvation is closed forever when Jesus returns on the last day, Matthew 24:14; Matthew 24:29-31.



​

 

[Alfred Persson]

This is the traditional teachings that even I use to believe in, but no longer.

Moses and Elijah are in their graves like everyone else that has ever died.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

A verse out of context becomes a pretext. In context, the discussion is about those who have witnessed heavenly things and brought that knowledge back to earth:

11 "Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness.
12 "If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
13 "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
(Jn. 3:11-13 NKJ)

No one has ascended to heaven [and then returned to testify what they have seen] but He who came down from heaven.

Commentators unfamiliar with Rabbinic argumentation (Jesus is speaking to Nicodemus a ruler-Rabbi) often miss the unstated premises in Jesus' arguments. For example, Christ proved the Sadducees wrong about the Resurrection, but many commentators claim Jesus "begged the question" as what He cites only proves life after death [to them], not bodily resurrection:

26 "But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying,`I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob '?
27 "He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken."
28 Then one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, perceiving that He had answered them well, asked Him, "Which is the first commandment of all?" (Mk. 12:26-28 NKJ)

BUT notice a scribe who heard Jesus' argument perceived "He had answered them well". To him, resurrection of the Body was precisely and incontrovertibly proved.

How can that be?

The Rabbi's of Jesus' day would infer from Exodus 3:6 the missing premises and conclusion.

The Sadducees greatly err because the Books of Moses (which alone was scripture to them) proves them twice wrong.

Not only are the Patriarchs alive with God now as Exodus 3:6 clearly implies, so they are NOT dead as the Sadducees believed, but they serve as a constant reminder to God He must raise them from the dead to fulfill His covenant promise, that they would live in the land forever.

Did they not read God promised THEM and their seed would live physically in the land forever? (Gen. 17:7-8; 26:3; 28:13)

Therefore, the resurrection of the Body is clearly and without question taught in the Torah.

As the scribe said, Jesus "answered them well."

So context supplies the missing premise, that no man ascended into heaven and then descended to reveal what they learned, ONLY Jesus came from heaven to reveal heavenly things.

Moses was resurrected and went to heaven, Satan tried to prevent that:

KJV Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. (Jude 1:9 KJV)

That is confirmed by Moses appearance at the Transfiguration, Peter wanted to build tents for Moses Elijah and Jesus for their physical bodies to sit in:

NKJ Mark 9:5 Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, "Rabbi, it is good for us to be here; and let us make three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah "- (Mk. 9:5 NKJ)

The Text says Moses and Elijah appeared, but you say it didn't happen. Better to believe scripture:

And Elijah appeared to them with Moses, and they were talking with Jesus. (Mk. 9:4 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

The star John saw that fell from heaven was an angel as angels are sometimes called stars in scripture. This angel having the key to open the bottomless pit could be the same angel we read about in Revelation 20:1-3 that God gives the key to that opens the bottomless pit where Satan is bound. When the bottomless pit was opened locust came up out of it. In reference to a smoke these locust would be to numerous to number, Judges 7:12, and look like dark smoke as they rise and swarm if you saw them from a distance. Once they became closer to your vision you would see that it wasn’t smoke, but a hoard of locust. Their attributes of what God is purposing them for is what gives them their power to sting as in tormenting those who have not the seal of God on them. They are compared as scorpions that literally sting using the power of their tails as they raise them above their head.

They laughed at Noah until the flood came and all were washed away, even though they could have repented and turned back to God before it was to late. So the same within the seven trumpets sounding that when people see the wrath of God being poured out into the world hopefully many will finally hear the Gospel being preached and turn back to God before the door of God's salvation is closed forever when Jesus returns on the last day, Matthew 24:14; Matthew 24:29-31.



​

I found myself agreeing until you claimed these are literal locusts. No way this describes literal locusts:

7 The shape of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle. On their heads were crowns of something like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men.
8 They had hair like women's hair, and their teeth were like lions' teeth.
9 And they had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots with many horses running into battle.
10 They had tails like scorpions, and there were stings in their tails. Their power was to hurt men five months.
11 And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon.
(Rev. 9:7-11 NKJ)

Nor would the Bible say Satan, aka Destruction or Apollyon, is the king of literal locusts.

God alone is sovereign over the earth.

Notice John can't see them clearly, their "faces were like....hair like....teeth like..." They must be ghostly, hard to see and they only remind him of something they are "like". That's because they were demons.

They contrast with the Nephilim calvary, John can see Rider and horse clearly. They aren't ghostly, they are physical beings.

And thus I saw the horses in the vision: those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone. (Rev. 9:17 NKJ)

 

[Edward]

Just as God told Moses to strike the rock for fresh water, Exodus 17:1-7,

Didn't He tell Moses to speak to the rock for water but Moses got mad and struck it instead?

That doesn't change your point at all though.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Didn't He tell Moses to speak to the rock for water but Moses got mad and struck it instead?

That doesn't change your point at all though.

He should only have struck it once, then it would prefigure Christ who was struck once then Holy Spirit "living water" given to the church to drink:

7 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
8 "Take the rod; you and your brother Aaron gather the congregation together. Speak to the rock before their eyes, and it will yield its water; thus you shall bring water for them out of the rock, and give drink to the congregation and their animals."
9 So Moses took the rod from before the LORD as He commanded him.
10 And Moses and Aaron gathered the assembly together before the rock; and he said to them, "Hear now, you rebels! Must we bring water for you out of this rock?"
11 Then Moses lifted his hand and struck the rock twice with his rod; and water came out abundantly, and the congregation and their animals drank.
12 Then the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, "Because you did not believe Me, to hallow Me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them." (Num. 20:7-12 NKJ)

and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. (1 Cor. 10:4 NKJ)

38 "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water."
39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. (Jn. 7:38-39 NKJ)

 

[Edward]

He should only have struck it once,

Where's it say that?

Speak to the rock before their eyes, and it will yield its water;

See?
I kind of get it why Moses got mad at the people though. Moses sure had a lot on his plate. Maybe they wouldn't have had to wander for so long if they weren't such whiners? Poor Moses. The Almighty God of Creation gives him something to do, and when he gets back, they people go all Homer Simpson on him, derp.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Where's it say that?



See?
I kind of get it why Moses got mad at the people though. Moses sure had a lot on his plate. Maybe they wouldn't have had to wander for so long if they weren't such whiners? Poor Moses. The Almighty God of Creation gives him something to do, and when he gets back, they people go all Homer Simpson on him, derp.

I agree, but notice he said "must we bring water out of the rock". That was error, not honoring God.

If I were a pimple on Moses ass, you'd need a microscope to see me. I'd be afraid to do his job, no doubt would screw it up far worse.

 

[for_his_glory]

Didn't He tell Moses to speak to the rock for water but Moses got mad and struck it instead?

That doesn't change your point at all though.

My bad, you are right. Thank you for the correction.

 

[for_his_glory]

I found myself agreeing until you claimed these are literal locusts. No way this describes literal locusts:

7 The shape of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle. On their heads were crowns of something like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men.
8 They had hair like women's hair, and their teeth were like lions' teeth.
9 And they had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots with many horses running into battle.
10 They had tails like scorpions, and there were stings in their tails. Their power was to hurt men five months.
11 And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon.
(Rev. 9:7-11 NKJ)

Nor would the Bible say Satan, aka Destruction or Apollyon, is the king of literal locusts.

God alone is sovereign over the earth.

Notice John can't see them clearly, their "faces were like....hair like....teeth like..." They must be ghostly, hard to see and they only remind him of something they are "like". That's because they were demons.

They contrast with the Nephilim calvary, John can see Rider and horse clearly. They aren't ghostly, they are physical beings.

And thus I saw the horses in the vision: those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone. (Rev. 9:17 NKJ)

There are many analogies found in scripture where certain things are likened unto other things like what I gave in post # 2

 

[Edward]

I agree, but notice he said "must we bring water out of the rock". That was error, not honoring God.

If I were a pimple on Moses ass, you'd need a microscope to see me. I'd be afraid to do his job, no doubt would screw it up far worse.

I know! Moses had a lot on his plate! Leading a bunch of idiots through the desert. I notice God did blame this one on Moses though, not the people this time, lol. But it usually was.

They wandered in the desert for 38 or 40 years?! That's incredible because Egypt is not that far from Israel. It's about 450 miles from Cairo to Jerusalem. If they made 30 miles a day it would only take them 15 days to make the trip! 40 years!

 

[Alfred Persson]

I know! Moses had a lot on his plate! Leading a bunch of idiots through the desert. I notice God did blame this one on Moses though, not the people this time, lol. But it usually was.

They wandered in the desert for 38 or 40 years?! That's incredible because Egypt is not that far from Israel. It's about 450 miles from Cairo to Jerusalem. If they made 30 miles a day it would only take them 15 days to make the trip! 40 years!

Good point and thanks. Never thought to do the math, 15 days! 40 years! That is context.

 

[Alfred Persson]

2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (Heaven here means atmosphere, first heaven)

Elijah, having ascended into the air (First heaven) by a whirlwind was carried away out of sight beyond the horizon. Several years after he was taken away King Jehoram received a letter from him. How long after? There are some difficulties in figuring the exact chronology as it varies from 2 to 10 years or more. A note in Josephus (a Jewish historian of the first century A.D.) says 4 years, while the JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA figures it at 7 years.

Regardless of the exact number of years there came writing to Jehoram from Elijah the prophet, saying..." (2Chron 21:12). Now the wickedness of Jehoram, for which he was being rebuked in the letter, took place after Elijah was taken away, yet the letter speaks of these things as past events, and the punishment to come upon him as yet future. So the idea of some, that Elijah wrote the letter before he was removed by the whirlwind, is proved wrong.

Elijah was taken up by the whirlwind into the first heaven and transported to another location on Earth. God did not see fit in His purpose to reveal his whereabouts. Chariot of fire is used at times figuratively for host (angels) like in 2 Kings 2:11, 12: 6:17; Psalms 68:17; 104:1-4. Elijah, by his prayers and his counsel was the "chariot of Israel and the horseman thereof", meaning Elijah was the stronghold of Israel, the driving force of God. The Israelite's never used chariots till the time of David.

When you compare 2 Kings 2:11-15 with 2 Kings 6:17 you see that God sent the host/angels down to Elijah who caught him up in a whirlwind and translated him to parts unknown. Several years after he was taken away King Jehoram received a letter from him.

Rather than speculate the plain teaching of Elijah's translation is incorrect, its better to admit nothing in Elijah's Letter (2 Chron. 21:12-15) proves Elijah wasn't translated to heaven.

He could have penned it in heaven and angels delivered it:

Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some have unwittingly entertained angels. (Heb. 13:2 NKJ)

You cited the Jewish Encyclopedia, but better than them are Keil and Delitzsch who, after looking at all the facts, conclude no one can say Elijah was not translated into heaven. Only that Lightfoot's proof he was isn't that strong. I, on the other hand, thought it quite strong, just not a smoking gun.

In regard to this statement, we need not be surprised that nothing is elsewhere told us of any written prophecies of Elijah; for we have no circumstantial accounts of his prophetic activity, by which we might estimate the circumstances which may have induced him in this particular instance to commit his prophecy to writing. But, on the other hand, it is very questionable if Elijah was still alive in the reign of Joram of Judah. His translation to heaven is narrated in 2 Kings 2, between the reign of Ahaziah and Joram of Israel, but the year of the event is nowhere stated in Scripture. In the Jewish Chronicle Seder olam, 2 Chron. 22:1, it is indeed placed in the second year of Ahaziah of Israel; but this statement is not founded upon historical tradition, but is a mere deduction from the fact that his translation is narrated in 2 Kings 2 immediately after Ahaziah’s death; and the last act of Elijah of which we have any record (2 Kings 1) falls in the second year of that king. Lightfoot, indeed (Opp. i. p. 85), Ramb., and Dereser have concluded from 2 Kings 3:11 that Elijah was taken away from the earth in the reign of Jehoshaphat, because according to that passage, in the campaign against the Moabites, undertaken in company with Joram of Israel, Jehoshaphat inquired for a prophet, and received the answer that Elisha was there, who had poured water upon the hands of Elijah. But the only conclusion to be drawn from that is, that in the camp, or near it, was Elisha, Elijah’s servant, not that Elijah was no longer upon earth.

Keil, C. F., & Delitzsch, F. (1996). Commentary on the Old Testament (Vol. 3, p. 643). Hendrickson.

 

[Alfred Persson]

There are many analogies found in scripture where certain things are likened unto other things like what I gave in post # 2

My post is #2. Besides, referring me to a post, where I have to scan to pick out from all those words, the precise sentence or two you want me to read, is absurd.

Cite your analogies again, and how they prove your point.