Why do Catholics omit the second commandment

[JLB]

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[Mungo]

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The Title appears to have no connection whatever with the content.

Also Catholics do not omit the second commandment. They number them differently to most Protestants.
I'd go into this is more detail but it seems pointless in view of the content of the link.

 

[Walpole]

10.11.22: Everything is at STAKE! DURHAM, Russia, Ukraine, Election, the OLD GUARD Exposed & in PANIC MODE! PRAY!

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rumble.com

Is the second commandment suppose to be a command to buy a survivalist food bucket per your link?

 

[JLB]

Is the second commandment suppose to be a command to buy a survivalist food bucket per your link?

The Second Commandment says…


You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. Exodus 20:4


Why would the Catholic leadership want to cancel this commandment from the 10 Commandments?


Answer: because they don’t want the people knowing that God forbids them from doing exactly what Catholicism teaches them to do.


Bow down and worship statues of Jesus or Mary or dead saints.


Not good.





JLB

 

[JLB]

 

[Mungo]

The Second Commandment says…


You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. Exodus 20:4


Why would the Catholic leadership want to cancel this commandment from the 10 Commandments?


Answer: because they don’t want the people knowing that God forbids them from doing exactly what Catholicism teaches them to do.


Bow down and worship statues of Jesus or Mary or dead saints.


Not good.





JLB

So the link has nothing to do with the thread title.
And this thread is just more Catholic bashing.

There are two differences between Catholics and (most but not all) Protestants in the format of the Ten Commandments.
1. Catholics use the list in Deuteronomy 5 rather that Ex 20.
2. There are actually more that ten commandments in both lists so they have to be concatenated. Catholics and Lutherans do it one way, other Protestants and Orthodox do it another way and Jews a third way.

The list from Deuteronomy 5:6-21 is
1st Commandment
6 “‘I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
7 “‘You shall have no other gods before[a] me.
8 “‘You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
9 you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
10 but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

2nd Commandment
11 “‘You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.

3rd Commandment
12 “‘Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you.
13 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work;
14 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, or your manservant, or your maidservant, or your ox, or your ass, or any of your cattle, or the sojourner who is within your gates, that your manservant and your maidservant may rest as well as you.
15 You shall remember that you were a servant in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out thence with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the sabbath day.

4th Commandment
16 “‘Honor your father and your mother, as the Lord your God commanded you; that your days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with you, in the land which the Lord your God gives you.

5th Commandment
17 “‘You shall not kill.

6th Commandment
18 “‘Neither shall you commit adultery.

7th Commandment
19 “‘Neither shall you steal.

8th Commandment
20 “‘Neither shall you bear false witness against your neighbor.

9th Commandment
21 “‘Neither shall you covet your neighbor’s wife;

10th Commandment
and you shall not desire your neighbor’s house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or anything that is your neighbor’s.’

Wikipedia has a useful chart showing this: Ten Commandments
Scroll down to see the chart.

Nothing is omitted; nothing is cancelled.
Personally I think the way Catholics (and Lutherans) do this with Dt 5:1-8 (or Ex 20:2-4) makes more sense than splitting them into two.

 

[JLB]

2nd Commandment
11 “‘You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.

Most Catholics understand what the 10 commandments are.

I don’t why some would omit the second commandment, that forbids us from making graven (carved) images of things and bowing down to them.

The commandments are for all of God’s people to obey.

Taking the name of the Lord in vain is the third commandment... the third commandment, not the second.


Here is what the second commandment says…

Notice the third commandment comes after the second commandment.


“You shall have no other gods before Me.
“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

“You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
Deuteronomy 20:3-7


We all are forbidden to operate in idolatry, all Christians.



JLB

 

[Mungo]

Most Catholics understand what the 10 commandments are.

I don’t why some would omit the second commandment, that forbids us from making graven (carved) images of things and bowing down to them.

The commandments are for all of God’s people to obey.

Taking the name of the Lord in vain is the third commandment... the third commandment, not the second.


Here is what the second commandment says…

Notice the third commandment comes after the second commandment.


“You shall have no other gods before Me.
“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

“You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
Deuteronomy 20:3-7


We all are forbidden to operate in idolatry, all Christians.



JLB

There are two separate arguments here.
Can we please separate them and, if you actually want to deal with them rather than just indulge in Catholic bashing, address them one at a time.

The first one is your claim that Catholics have omitted the second commandment.
I have shown you that the Catholic Church has NOT omitted the command about making graven images or bowing but include them as part of the 1st commandment.

Here it is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
Article 1

THE FIRST COMMANDMENT

I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them.3
3 is a reference to a footnote:- Ex 20:2-5; cf. Deut 5:6-9.

Nothing omitted, nothing cancelled

 

[Walpole]

Most Catholics understand what the 10 commandments are.

I don’t why some would omit the second commandment, that forbids us from making graven (carved) images of things and bowing down to them.

The commandments are for all of God’s people to obey.

Taking the name of the Lord in vain is the third commandment... the third commandment, not the second.


Here is what the second commandment says…

Notice the third commandment comes after the second commandment.


“You shall have no other gods before Me.
“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

“You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
Deuteronomy 20:3-7


We all are forbidden to operate in idolatry, all Christians.



JLB

This is an odd accusation given you have an avatar of a "likeness of anything that is In heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth" above your screen name here. How is you posting that image not a violation of the second commandment, but when Catholics have images, it is a violation?

Images for me but not for thee?

If you truly believed what you are accusing Catholics of, you would remove that avatar immediately, as well as remove all pictures / paintings from your home, and wipe all the photos off your phone.

 

[JLB]

This is an odd accusation given you have an avatar of a "likeness of anything that is In heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth" above your screen name here. How is you posting that image not a violation of the second commandment, but when Catholics have images, it is a violation?

Images for me but not for thee?

So you believe a picture is a graven, or carved image?

Do you believe it's ok to have carved images of Jesus or Mary for the purpose of bowing down to them?


JLB

 

[JLB]

If you truly believed what you are accusing Catholics of, you would remove that avatar immediately, as well as remove all pictures / paintings from your home, and wipe all the photos off your phone.

So you believe it's OK to have a carved image or statue of Jesus or Mary and to bow down to them?

 

[JLB]

1st Commandment
6 “‘I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
7 “‘You shall have no other gods before[a] me.

1st Commandment

8 “‘You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
9 you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
10 but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Second Commandment

 

[Mungo]

1st Commandment




Second Commandment

Nope.
1st Commandment
6 “‘I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
7 “‘You shall have no other gods before[a] me.
8 “‘You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
9 you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
10 but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Jews do not split Dt 5:7 (Ex 20:3) from Dt 5:8-10 (Ex 20 4-6) so why do you think you should?

Also keeping them together makes more sense.
Dt 5: 7 is the basic command. Dt 5:8-10 is an expansion of that.

 

[JLB]

Jews do not split Dt 5:7 (Ex 20:3) from Dt 5:8-10 (Ex 20 4-6) so why do you think you should?

Catholics are the ones trying to erase the second commandment.

Why?

• Exodus 20 —

“I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
“You shall have no other gods before Me.

1st Commandment


“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
Exodus 20:2-6


2nd Commandment

• Deuteronomy 5 —

I am the LORD your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
You shall have no other gods before Me.

1st Commandment


You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
Deuteronomy 5:6-9

2nd Commandment




There is no difference between Exodus and Deuteronomy.



Why do Catholics try to omit the second commandment?




JLB

 

[Mungo]

Catholics are the ones trying to erase the second commandment.

Why?

• Exodus 20 —

“I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
“You shall have no other gods before Me.

1st Commandment


“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
Exodus 20:2-6


2nd Commandment

• Deuteronomy 5 —

I am the LORD your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
You shall have no other gods before Me.

1st Commandment


You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
Deuteronomy 5:6-9

2nd Commandment




There is no difference between Exodus and Deuteronomy.



Why do Catholics try to omit the second commandment?




JLB

As I have shown you repeatedly (posts #6, #8, #13) Catholics do not erase or omit anything.

All of Dt 5:6-21 (or Ex 20:2-17 if you prefer) are clearly shown and discussed in the Catechism.
Article 1

THE FIRST COMMANDMENT

I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them.
It also adds It is written: "You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve."4 to the above.
4 being a reference to the footnote Mt 4:10.

There then follows paragraphs 2084 to 2132 discussing that commandment.

 

[Walpole]

So you believe a picture is a graven, or carved image?

Do you believe it's ok to have carved images of Jesus or Mary for the purpose of bowing down to them?


JLB

Did you not bother reading the COMMANDMENT you quoted???

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth." (Exodus 20:4)


"And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it. Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the Lord spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female, the likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air, the likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth." (Deuteronomy 4:13-18)


Did you miss that? "ANY LIKENESS OF ANYTHING that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall now bow down to them nor serve them."


You don't even believe what is quoted. For if you did, you would immediately remove that avatar you posted above your screen name of a likeness of that which is in the earth beneath the heavens. (Don't forget to remove all pictures in your home and wipe all photos from your iPhone!)

 

[Walpole]

So you believe it's OK to have a carved image or statue of Jesus or Mary and to bow down to them?

Most heresies are Christological heresies and based on a complete lack of understanding of the Incarnation. Iconoclasm is but another example of this fact.

God is the first and ultimate iconographer by virtue of the Incarnation...

"[Christ]Who is the image of the invisible God..." (Col 1:15)

Thus, in light of the Incarnation, paradoxically, it is the iconoclast who is guilty of idolatry. Scripture shows us that idolatry consists in either the worshiping of a false god (e.g. Molech in Leviticus 18:21, Baal and Ashtoreth in Judges 2:13, Chemosh in Judges 11:23-24 or Dagon in Judges 16:23), or in worshiping a false representation of the One True God. The example of this second form of idolatry that most of us are familiar with is the account of the Jews, when they worshiped the true God who delivered them from Egypt as a false representation in the golden calf. (cf. Nehemiah 9:18) Prior to the Incarnation, it was idolatrous to make an image of God because He had not yet revealed Himself. He was hidden. (cf. Exodus 33:20) Any type of representation of Him was forbidden because any representation of Him would be false. However, by becoming man, God has entered into His creation and thus now given man an image of Himself.

By becoming man, God has now taken on flesh and His creation is now the theater of His grace. God is no longer hidden. He is now material, physical and visible. God can now be portrayed because He is fully God and fully man. He has been seen; He has taken on our nature. Thus, any rejection of icons is a rejection of the Incarnation, and therefore represents a false representation of who God is. Rejecting icons / iconography is rejecting that God has in fact come in the flesh. It says God has no physical body and still remains hidden. It says God is not Immanuel, but rather is Hester Panim. Since the Incarnation, this belief is now idolatry, for it is worshipping a misrepresentation of God.

 

[Walpole]

In the Old Covenant, Israel simply heard God's voice, but “saw no form” (Deut. 4:12). This is why she was forbidden from making images of God. Israel could have “graven tablets” to record the Lord’s voice (Ex. 32:16), but not “graven images” to record His form because He had not yet revealed Himself.

But now God has revealed Himself in the Person of Jesus Christ, for Christ is now the "image of the invisible God." (Col 1:15) Furthermore, Christ said whoever sees Him, sees the Father. The Incarnation itself is thus an icon, and God therefore has become the ultimate Iconographer.

If you deny this, you are denying the Incarnation. You are arguing God did not come in the flesh, but instead remains Hester Panim.

 

[JLB]

Did you not bother reading the COMMANDMENT you quoted???

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth." (Exodus 20:4)


"And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it. Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the Lord spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female, the likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air, the likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth." (Deuteronomy 4:13-18)


Did you miss that? "ANY LIKENESS OF ANYTHING that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall now bow down to them nor serve them."


You don't even believe what is quoted. For if you did, you would immediately remove that avatar you posted above your screen name of a likeness of that which is in the earth beneath the heavens. (Don't forget to remove all pictures in your home and wipe all photos from your iPhone!)

 

[JLB]

Most heresies are Christological heresies and based on a complete lack of understanding of the Incarnation. Iconoclasm is but another example of this fact.

God is the first and ultimate iconographer by virtue of the Incarnation...

"[Christ]Who is the image of the invisible God..." (Col 1:15)

Thus, in light of the Incarnation, paradoxically, it is the iconoclast who is guilty of idolatry. Scripture shows us that idolatry consists in either the worshiping of a false god (e.g. Molech in Leviticus 18:21, Baal and Ashtoreth in Judges 2:13, Chemosh in Judges 11:23-24 or Dagon in Judges 16:23), or in worshiping a false representation of the One True God. The example of this second form of idolatry that most of us are familiar with is the account of the Jews, when they worshiped the true God who delivered them from Egypt as a false representation in the golden calf. (cf. Nehemiah 9:18) Prior to the Incarnation, it was idolatrous to make an image of God because He had not yet revealed Himself. He was hidden. (cf. Exodus 33:20) Any type of representation of Him was forbidden because any representation of Him would be false. However, by becoming man, God has entered into His creation and thus now given man an image of Himself.

By becoming man, God has now taken on flesh and His creation is now the theater of His grace. God is no longer hidden. He is now material, physical and visible. God can now be portrayed because He is fully God and fully man. He has been seen; He has taken on our nature. Thus, any rejection of icons is a rejection of the Incarnation, and therefore represents a false representation of who God is. Rejecting icons / iconography is rejecting that God has in fact come in the flesh. It says God has no physical body and still remains hidden. It says God is not Immanuel, but rather is Hester Panim. Since the Incarnation, this belief is now idolatry, for it is worshipping a misrepresentation of God.

So you believe it’s ok to have statues and carved images of Jesus and Mary and bow down to them?