Luke 7:30 examples of those who reject the purpose of God for themselves

[GodsGrace]

I have posted on another board with Mungo. I like much of what he is doing, but believe he needs to free himself from roman superstition.

Romans Superstition.
That's pretty funny.
The bible as the reformed understand it sounds like superstition to me.
Catholics understand the nature of God and understand how to get to heaven.

I have offen replied to your posts. I even replied to the one you keep copy and pasting

I don't copy and paste.
Never have in 8 years of being here.
Everyone deserves their own conversation.

.One time I said nothing is wrong with the post, only you are not understanding what you are quoting [many do not]. you do not like me telling you so, often now I pass by, like God passes by non elect persons. Then you do not get mad.

Oh, I understand what I'm quoting.
And God does not pass over anyone....
all are welcomed to the Wedding Feast.
Matthew 22
Of course, the CONDITION is that you must be wearing the proper clothing.

Verse 8-14
. 8“Then he said to his slaves, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy.
9‘Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.’
10“Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests.
11“But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes,
12and he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?’ And the man was speechless. 13“Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
14“For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Let's see if we can find some reformed doctrine in the parable of the Wedding Feast...

Verse 8 Those who were invited were not worhty. God is indeed not partial and treats everyone the same.
Verse 9 The slaves were sent out to invite everyone they found. Looks like no one got picked, but was invited.
Verse 10 They found both evil and good people...IOW, all were invited.
Verse 11 Someone was not dressed in the proper wedding apparel. He was not covered with Jesus.
Verse 12 All that person needed to get in was the proper attire....anyone dressed properly could enter.
Verse 13 The REASON the man was thrown out was because he was not properly dressed. There WAS a reason.
Verse 14 God calls many (everyone as stated above), but only the properly dressed are chosen. Those on the narrow road.

You need to understand what you are quoting. I use the 1689 cof. It is carefully worded document. you should read it slowly, sentence by sentence, and not re-word it. that is when this happens to you

You think I'll understand the 1689?
Gee. Maybe I won't !!
Isn't it written for the common man so he could find out HOW TO GET TO HEAVEN?

Sounds good, except the same questions remain...What does the bible mean when it says; xyz.That is where the confession of faith and other links come in.

It's not a problem for the rest of Christianity.
No big disagreements.
I'd say the reformed have BIG disagreements with the rest.

 

[GodsGrace]

Why do you have to be so ... CALVINIST!!!!


Why can't you just be a Calvinist.

Yes. You're so civil....

But those HIGH CALVINISTS are a different story!

 

[Iconoclast]

Why do you have to be so ... CALVINIST!!!!


Why can't you just be a Calvinist.

Those evil Calvinists, they keep using scripture, and links of other dead guys who all use scripture

 

[Iconoclast]

Romans Superstition.
That's pretty funny.
The bible as the reformed understand it sounds like superstition to me.
Catholics understand the nature of God and understand how to get to heaven.



I don't copy and paste.
Never have in 8 years of being here.
Everyone deserves their own conversation.



Oh, I understand what I'm quoting.
And God does not pass over anyone....
all are welcomed to the Wedding Feast.
Matthew 22
Of course, the CONDITION is that you must be wearing the proper clothing.

Verse 8-14
. 8“Then he said to his slaves, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy.
9‘Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.’
10“Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests.
11“But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes,
12and he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?’ And the man was speechless. 13“Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
14“For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Let's see if we can find some reformed doctrine in the parable of the Wedding Feast...

Verse 8 Those who were invited were not worhty. God is indeed not partial and treats everyone the same.
Verse 9 The slaves were sent out to invite everyone they found. Looks like no one got picked, but was invited.
Verse 10 They found both evil and good people...IOW, all were invited.
Verse 11 Someone was not dressed in the proper wedding apparel. He was not covered with Jesus.
Verse 12 All that person needed to get in was the proper attire....anyone dressed properly could enter.
Verse 13 The REASON the man was thrown out was because he was not properly dressed. There WAS a reason.
Verse 14 God calls many (everyone as stated above), but only the properly dressed are chosen. Those on the narrow road.



You think I'll understand the 1689?
Gee. Maybe I won't !!
Isn't it written for the common man so he could find out HOW TO GET TO HEAVEN?


It's not a problem for the rest of Christianity.
No big disagreements.
I'd say the reformed have BIG disagreements with the rest.

I was a Roman Catholic until God saved me out of it.

 

[GodsGrace]

I was a Roman Catholic until God saved me out of it.

Well, he's not saving you out of replying to me!
I'm going to say good night.
Please respond to my post, I know it's kind of long.
Domani...

 

[atpollard]

Catholics understand the nature of God and understand how to get to heaven.

1. Pray to Mary
2. Buy candles for the dead.
3. Serve your time in purgatory

… and you, too, can get into RCC Heaven.
(unless you say that you are saved by grace, then you are anathema - Council of Trent)

 

[Iconoclast]

Romans Superstition.
That's pretty funny.

W...you asked me to answer correct? A religion that has people lighting candles and praying to mythical saints such as St. Anthony patron saint of travel. He has never heard or answered one prayer....he cannot.Lk16.
That is superstition. Reformed do not do that.

The bible as the reformed understand it sounds like superstition to me.

In what way?

Catholics understand the nature of God and understand how to get to heaven.

Catholics mostly do not read the bible and are completely ignorant of what the bible has in it.
For every one mungo, there are 190000 ignorant Catholics. I have met and talked with them

Oh, I understand what I'm quoting.
And God does not pass over anyone....
all are welcomed to the Wedding Feast.
Matthew 22
Of course, the CONDITION is that you must be wearing the proper clothing.

Verse 8-14
. 8“Then he said to his slaves, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy.
9‘Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.’
10“Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests.
11“But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes,
12and he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?’ And the man was speechless. 13“Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
14“For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Let's see if we can find some reformed doctrine in the parable of the Wedding Feast...

Verse 8 Those who were invited were not worhty. God is indeed not partial and treats everyone the same.
Verse 9 The slaves were sent out to invite everyone they found. Looks like no one got picked, but was invited.
Verse 10 They found both evil and good people...IOW, all were invited.
Verse 11 Someone was not dressed in the proper wedding apparel. He was not covered with Jesus.
Verse 12 All that person needed to get in was the proper attire....anyone dressed properly could enter.
Verse 13 The REASON the man was thrown out was because he was not properly dressed. There WAS a reason.
Verse 14 God calls many (everyone as stated above), but only the properly dressed are chosen. Those on the narrow road.

You do not go to parables to come up with doctrine.

You think I'll understand the 1689?
Gee. Maybe I won't !!
Isn't it written for the common man so he could find out HOW TO GET TO HEAVEN?

No, it was written to teach the things most surely believed among us

It's not a problem for the rest of Christianity.

I do not follow your definition of Christianity. Mine might be narrower.

No big disagreements.
I'd say the reformed have BIG disagreements with the rest.

Reformed are about Jesus and the bible. Many others are content with an outward show.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

LOL



No. You don't need to go over this because it's not what I asked you.
I just never get my questions answered.

As you've stated so eloquently, the work on the Cross was the means by which God purposed to accomplish full redemption for the elect. All Christians know this. You keep telling me what all Christians know and accept.
Could we figure out why YOU are reformed? And IF you could explain your theology?

God sent Jesus, just as you've said to be our savior.
What makes Him our savior is that He saves those that desire to be saved as In John 3:16. (it's not my sides fault if you don't understand that it's prescriptive).

So...
Since man will not be having to desire and choose to follow Christ and accept His sacrifice,
but instead...
God will be doing all the choosing/decreeing and predestinating from before the beginning of the world...
WHY OH WHY was the sacrifice of Jesus necessary?

Before answering, think this over.



Agreed.
The problem is WHO ARE HIS SHEEP?

Jesus said it's the ones that hear His voice and recognize it.
How did that happen to them? They entered through the door...they took an action.
John 10:9
9“I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved,,,


He didn't mention anything about God choosing anyone...
just that those that listen and learn from the Father get sent to Him...the Savior.
John 6:44-45
44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
45“It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.


Verse 44: God wishes all to come to salvation. 1 Timothy 2:4
Verse 45: The Father will personally teach everyone. Jeremiah 31:34



John 10:14
I am the good shepherd, and I know my own, and my own know me...

Jesus lays down His life for the sheep.
WHERE does it state that the sheep were chosen by God??

It states that Father and Son know each other, just like Jesus and His sheep know each other.



The gentiles are the other sheep.
Who do YOU think they are?


Jesus died for all men.
Not all men wish to be saved.
However, His sacrifice was large enough and sufficient enough to save ALL MEN...




Right.
Everyone who is believing at the time of their death will be saved.
No believing-
No salvation.

John 3:16
FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD
THAT HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON
SO THAT WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM
WILL NOT PERISH
BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE.

WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM....
this is why Jesus was sacrificed.
So that WHOEVER BELIEVES in HIM WILL NOT PERISH.


Happily for us, God let's us know the ways and means...
He does not keep it a secret as Calvin taught.

Correct.
Unfortunately, the reformed believe God chooses arbitrarily.
Look up what UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION MEANS.
It means God chooses FOR NO REASON AT ALL...
which means: ARBITRARILY.

I admire your tenacity.

 

[Iconoclast]

Icon...
In post 122 you said:
The teaching of Romans 2 is very solid.
It is not however given as a teaching of a possible works salvation.
Nature and conscience allow men to have an incomplete knowledge , but not a saving knowledge.
That is easily proven ,even by Romans 10.9-17
In post 124 I then made the comment that then men DO have an excuse.

Because:
Romans 1:19-20 states that man does not have an excuses - not because God did not offer him saving knowledge,
but because God DID offer saving knowledge to man, but some men turned it down.
THIS is why they will be without excuse...

Romans 1:18-21
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks,

Please note what the above states:

1. God is wrathful against all ungodliness of men.
2. Because God is evident to ungodly men.
3. Because God's invisible attributes, His eternal power and His divine nature have been clearly seen through what has been created/made.
4. Man will be WITHOUT EXCUSE because even though THEY KNEW GOD, they DID NOT HONOR HIM.

Before the flood God talked to man, but they turned from him, and made their own God's, that is idols.

I hope you remember that you once told me that in the NT the word KNEW means in an intimate way.
So man has always had the opportunity to clearly perceive God through what God created.
If God has the opportunity to KNOW God, as is stated above, then man IS WITHOUT excuse.
Man is RESPONSIBLE for whether or not He accepts God, with whatever light man is given.

Men are responsible before God, but will never seek Him savingly on their own.

 

[Iconoclast]

LOL



No. You don't need to go over this because it's not what I asked you.
I just never get my questions answered.

As you've stated so eloquently, the work on the Cross was the means by which God purposed to accomplish full redemption for the elect. All Christians know this. You keep telling me what all Christians know and accept.
Could we figure out why YOU are reformed? And IF you could explain your theology?

God sent Jesus, just as you've said to be our savior.
What makes Him our savior is that He saves those that desire to be saved as In John 3:16. (it's not my sides fault if you don't understand that it's prescriptive).

So...
Since man will not be having to desire and choose to follow Christ and accept His sacrifice,
but instead...
God will be doing all the choosing/decreeing and predestinating from before the beginning of the world...
WHY OH WHY was the sacrifice of Jesus necessary?

Before answering, think this over.



Agreed.
The problem is WHO ARE HIS SHEEP?

Jesus said it's the ones that hear His voice and recognize it.
How did that happen to them? They entered through the door...they took an action.
John 10:9
9“I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved,,,


He didn't mention anything about God choosing anyone...
just that those that listen and learn from the Father get sent to Him...the Savior.
John 6:44-45
44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
45“It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.


Verse 44: God wishes all to come to salvation. 1 Timothy 2:4
Verse 45: The Father will personally teach everyone. Jeremiah 31:34



John 10:14
I am the good shepherd, and I know my own, and my own know me...

Jesus lays down His life for the sheep.
WHERE does it state that the sheep were chosen by God??

It states that Father and Son know each other, just like Jesus and His sheep know each other.



The gentiles are the other sheep.
Who do YOU think they are?


Jesus died for all men.
Not all men wish to be saved.
However, His sacrifice was large enough and sufficient enough to save ALL MEN...




Right.
Everyone who is believing at the time of their death will be saved.
No believing-
No salvation.

John 3:16
FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD
THAT HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON
SO THAT WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM
WILL NOT PERISH
BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE.

WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM....
this is why Jesus was sacrificed.
So that WHOEVER BELIEVES in HIM WILL NOT PERISH.


Happily for us, God let's us know the ways and means...
He does not keep it a secret as Calvin taught.

Correct.
Unfortunately, the reformed believe God chooses arbitrarily.
Look up what UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION MEANS.
It means God chooses FOR NO REASON AT ALL...
which means: ARBITRARILY.

Never saw any reformed person post any foolish idea as this.

 

[Highway54]

Then Jesus stands corrected ... I'll let YOU tell Him.

You commented on the Scripture Cooper posted sir, and I showed you what the Bible went on to say, yes over 1500 yrs later when Jesus was there, he quite accurately indicated they had rejected Jehovah as a nation, and made it clear to them that the Kingdom would be taken from them and given to a nation producing it's fruits. So Cooper, I, and you are not incorrect in what we stated, but there was a considerable span of time involved. Jesus is never wrong sir, it will always be our interpretations that are awry.

 

[GodsGrace]

Technically, that is not quite what it means ... it means "for no reason having to do with any merit in us". God did not choose US because WE met some condition OURSELVES ... (like We chose to believe and they chose not to believe, so God elected US because we earned God's selection by believing). There is a CONDITION, but that CONDITION has NOTHING to do with us and EVERYTHING to do with GOD. What is it? (We don't know ... God doesn't say, exactly. It has SOMETHING to do with "according to His purpose" and "for His glory", but God is light on explaining the details of why He chooses what he chooses.)

A,
UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION means there are no conditions.
If there are no conditions, WE cannot know how to save ourself IF we wanted to be saved.
We need CONDITIONS to know what God wants of us in order to be saved.
Didn't Jesus come here to give us the good news?
Isn't the good news that He died for each one of us and we could achieve salvation by following Him?
Isn't this the reason why Jesus went to the cross? As an atonement?

Up above you perfectly described UNCONDITIONAL and ARBITRARY in what I highlighted.
And yes, IT'S NECESSARY to believe in God in order to be saved.
Hebrews 11:6
6And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
7By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
Verse 6 just disproved everything you said.
To please God we need faith. (someone on here says faith is a work, the opposite of what Paul taught).
HE WHO COMES TO GOD....It's possible for us to go to God. God draws, we MOVE toward Him.
John 12:32
32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

and again...

John 12:26
.26“If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.

If anyone serves me,
IF...

It's up to each one of us to take the action of serving.

Yes, God has most certainly let us know what to do to be saved.

It's not a mystery.

 

[atpollard]

UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION means there are no conditions.

Still false, no matter how often you repeat it.

It would be like saying that there was no cost for our redemption because WE paid no cost.
(That does not prove that there was no cost, it only proves that we paid no cost).

In the same way, the FACT that there is no condition met by US does not mean that there is no condition WHATSOEVER. The "WHY" is found in God rather than Man.

 

[GodsGrace]

Still false, no matter how often you repeat it.

It would be like saying that there was no cost for our redemption because WE paid no cost.
(That does not prove that there was no cost, it only proves that we paid no cost).

In the same way, the FACT that there is no condition met by US does not mean that there is no condition WHATSOEVER. The "WHY" is found in God rather than Man.

I'm not going to debate what unconditional means.

We both speak English pretty well.

Try this:
What does CONDITIONAL ELECTION mean?

 

[atpollard]

If there are no conditions, WE cannot know how to save ourself IF we wanted to be saved.

1. We cannot save ourselves ... that is why JESUS came to save us.
2. UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION concerns "why" not "how" of salvation. Why does God choose one person and not another. We don't know why (because the Bible does not reveal God's mind completely), however the Bible makes it clear that God does not choose people because they are better than others or because they are smarter or because they deserve to be chosen. THAT is the point of "UNCONDITIONAL" in "Unconditional Election" ... the condition for God drawing one and not another is NOT based on any merit or value innate in us or our actions: it is unconditional (God just does it for HIS reasons).

How to get saved is both crystal clear and simple enough for a child or "mentally disabled" to accomplish ... TRUST Jesus! It is not too HARD for people to understand, it is too "foolish" for people to be willing to do. That is why God must DRAW us (while we were still dead and children of wrath) ... people are unwilling to come any other way. Remember nearly perfect Adam hiding from God ... that is who we are.

 

[GodsGrace]

1. We cannot save ourselves ... that is why JESUS came to save us.
2. UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION concerns "why" not "how" of salvation. Why does God choose one person and not another. We don't know why (because the Bible does not reveal God's mind completely), however the Bible makes it clear that God does not choose people because they are better than others or because they are smarter or because they deserve to be chosen. THAT is the point of "UNCONDITIONAL" in "Unconditional Election" ... the condition for God drawing one and not another is NOT based on any merit or value innate in us or our actions: it is unconditional (God just does it for HIS reasons).

How to get saved is both crystal clear and simple enough for a child or "mentally disabled" to accomplish ... TRUST Jesus! It is not too HARD for people to understand, it is too "foolish" for people to be willing to do. That is why God must DRAW us (while we were still dead and children of wrath) ... people are unwilling to come any other way. Remember nearly perfect Adam hiding from God ... that is who we are.

What does CONDITIONAL ELECTION mean?

 

[atpollard]

Try this:
What does CONDITIONAL ELECTION mean?

This ...

CONDITIONAL ELECTION:
It might not be a terrible thing to present the opposite view, Conditional Election, right up front for an immediate contrast:

Many (most?) people believe that in eternity past, God looked ahead and saw who would say yes and who would say no to the gospel. Based on this prior knowledge of who would believe in Jesus Christ, God elects to save them. This is conditional election: God distributes His electing grace on the basis of a foreseen condition that human beings themselves meet.

vs ...

God does not foresee an action or condition on our part that induces Him to save us. Rather, election rests on God’s sovereign decision to save whomever He is pleased to save. - R.C. Sproul

 

[GodsGrace]

1. We cannot save ourselves ... that is why JESUS came to save us.
2. UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION concerns "why" not "how" of salvation. Why does God choose one person and not another. We don't know why (because the Bible does not reveal God's mind completely), however the Bible makes it clear that God does not choose people because they are better than others or because they are smarter or because they deserve to be chosen. THAT is the point of "UNCONDITIONAL" in "Unconditional Election" ... the condition for God drawing one and not another is NOT based on any merit or value innate in us or our actions: it is unconditional (God just does it for HIS reasons).

How to get saved is both crystal clear and simple enough for a child or "mentally disabled" to accomplish ... TRUST Jesus! It is not too HARD for people to understand, it is too "foolish" for people to be willing to do. That is why God must DRAW us (while we were still dead and children of wrath) ... people are unwilling to come any other way. Remember nearly perfect Adam hiding from God ... that is who we are.

UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION is a How not a Why.

 

[GodsGrace]

This ...

vs ...

God does not foresee an action or condition on our part that induces Him to save us. Rather, election rests on God’s sovereign decision to save whomever He is pleased to save. - R.C. Sproul

Forget Sproul.
I'm talking to you.

I'm asking what CE means and so far, no answer.

 

[atpollard]

I'm asking what CE means and so far, no answer.

This is conditional election: God distributes His electing grace on the basis of a foreseen condition that human beings themselves meet. ​

​

Can you see it now? I even included an example in the original quote found in Post #197.
That was ME ... I created a whole TOPIC on the "U" of Tulip ... you just wanted to argue "nations vs individuals".
Sproul just defined UE with his quote.