Why Trinitarians And Non-Trinitarians Have Different Beliefs?

[Runningman]

First, we have to consider that Jesus is the one and only Son of God. Second, the title Son of God is a reference to his deity. Third, we should look at all the instances where he is worshiped and note the contexts:

Mat 2:2 saying, “Where is he who has been born king of the Jews? For we saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.” (ESV)

Mat 14:25 And in the fourth watch of the night he came to them, walking on the sea.
Mat 14:26 But when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were terrified, and said, “It is a ghost!” and they cried out in fear.
Mat 14:27 But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, “Take heart; it is I. Do not be afraid.”
Mat 14:28 And Peter answered him, “Lord, if it is you, command me to come to you on the water.”
Mat 14:29 He said, “Come.” So Peter got out of the boat and walked on the water and came to Jesus.
Mat 14:30 But when he saw the wind, he was afraid, and beginning to sink he cried out, “Lord, save me.”
Mat 14:31 Jesus immediately reached out his hand and took hold of him, saying to him, “O you of little faith, why did you doubt?”
Mat 14:32 And when they got into the boat, the wind ceased.
Mat 14:33 And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.” (ESV)

(Note that the reason for their worship is Jesus's walking on the sea and stilling of the wind, and that they state that he truly is the Son of God.)

Peter also walked on the water, demonstrating that walking on water is not something that only God can do. Therefore it doesn't called that Jesus being the "one and only Son of God" is implied deity.

Mat 28:9 And behold, Jesus met them and said, “Greetings!” And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him. (ESV)

(The context here is his first appearance after his resurrection. Compare that with Thomas's response to his first encounter with the resurrected Christ.)

Mat 28:17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. (ESV)

Luk 24:51 While he blessed them, he parted from them and was carried up into heaven.
Luk 24:52 And they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy, (ESV)

(Two more post-resurrection contexts.)

Joh 9:38 He said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him. (ESV)

(This is the response of someone whom Jesus had just healed.)

Notice that in all these instances, the contexts are Jesus's birth, miracles he performed, and his resurrection. In other words, there is something supernatural in each of the contexts. This is not the same as simple bowing as one does before any other man.

And, again, we must contrast that with what happened with Peter and the angel(s) in Revelation:

Act 10:25 When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him.
Act 10:26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I too am a man.” (ESV)

Rev 19:9 And the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God.”
Rev 19:10 Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.” For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. (ESV)

Rev 22:8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,
Rev 22:9 but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.” (ESV)

If Jesus is just a man, why does he accept worship and Peter does not, precisely because he is a man? Why would the angel(s) tell John not to worship them and to worship God, yet Jesus does not, on several occasions?

Yes there are many examples that I am aware of where they bowed down to Jesus in reference to him being the Son of God, but worshipping someone does not mean they are God. Many times in the Bible are humans worshipped and it's normally due to their status, but not because they are God. It isn't as though bowing to a king implies they are God.

1 Kings 1
23So the king was told, “Nathan the prophet is here.” And Nathan went in and bowed facedown before the king.

It isn't as though Nathan the prophet committed open idolatry because worshipping a different god aside from YHWH as God is expressly forbidden by the the first two commandments.

To be sure that Jesus is not YHWH, the I AM, God, etc you can see how God is referenced as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and Jesus is His servant.

Exodus 3
14God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”

15God also told Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.


Acts 3
13The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus.

 

[gordon777]

Jesus is the servant of God, and the servants of God/Jesus, serve Him.


Him=God/the Lamb.


Revelation 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

 

[gordon777]

Why cant heretics be treated as heretics, and those who create strife be stopped, why is no peace of God evident on the forum at all, ever, or will it be only in the day it is ended. ( v soon)

 

[gordon777]

John 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

 

[gordon777]

Romans 14:18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.

 

[Runningman]

Jesus is the servant of God, and the servants of God/Jesus, serve Him.


Him=God/the Lamb.


Revelation 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

Revelation 21
22But I saw no temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

 

[GodsGrace]

I do think Jesus is only a human.

You answered YES for Christian under your avatar.
What makes you be a CHRISTian?

The prophecies concerning him said he would be a human born from the seed of a woman. (Genesis 3:15, Isaiah 7:14,15)

Could you explain where in Genesis 3:15 it says that Jesus would be born a human?
Genesis 3:15
14So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,

“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush b your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

Are you referring to the offspring of the woman?
God will make enemies of the offspring of the serpent, or devil. Those that are not born again....
And the woman, who is understood to be Mary.
Jesus is the offspring of Mary.
Who is the Father of Jesus?

When he was born he was a human and as he aged he grew and matured like normal humans do. (Luke 2:52)

Yes, you're right.
Jesus was 100% a human.
And He was 100% God.
It's known as the hypostatic union.
Look it up.
If you don't believe Jesus is God, you cannot call yourself a Christian.

If Jesus was just a man, you will die in your sins.
1 Corinthians 14:14-17
14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.
15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised.
16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either.
17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.

John 10:30
"I and the Father are one.”

Colossians 2:9
For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,

He did not receive the Holy Spirit until after his water baptism. (Matt 3:16)

The SON OF GOD needed to receive the Holy Spirit?
Jesus stated that He was to be baptized to fulfill all righteousness...
all the things being made right by God.
Matthew 3:15
15Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.


Again I ask you,
WHO is the Father of Jesus?

Here's a hint:
Luke 1:35

He didn't begin performing miracles until after he received the Holy Spirit. (John 2:1-11)

Agreed. This is when Jesus' Ministry began.

He died a man (John 19:30)
Was resurrected as a man (Luke 24:39)
And was taken to heaven as a man (Acts 1:2)
They continued calling him a man decades after his ascension to heaven (1 Tim 2:5,6)
Paul called Jesus a "man of heaven" or a "heavenly man" (1 Cor 15:49)

Men come back to life?
Men ascend to heaven after death?

How was Jesus resurrected?
By whose power?

So if he isn't a man like the Bible says, what happened to his body as he was raptured to heaven?


I don't believe a Christian should invent their own doctrines.

I agree that Christians should not invent their own doctrines.
But this is exactly what you're doing in this post.

Can you please clarify your belief regarding the Trinity? I prefer to reference what the Athanasian creed says so if we refer to what the Trinity is then we have a standard to go by.

Thank you, but that image or diagram of the Trinity isn't explained in Matt 28:19 or elsewhere in the Bible as far as I have seen.

I'm afraid you'll have to find out about the Trinity.

 

[GodsGrace]

There was no Jesus before the Word took on flesh.

The Word always existed.
God's mind, intelligence and reason always existed.
The Word/Logos was always in existence, just as God has been.
John 1:1

 

[Hopeful 2]

The Word always existed.
God's mind, intelligence and reason always existed.
The Word/Logos was always in existence, just as God has been.
John 1:1

Amen to that.
The Word gave up a lot though, when He took on flesh.

 

[Runningman]

You answered YES for Christian under your avatar.
What makes you be a CHRISTian?

Jesus is my lord and savior. How about you?

Could you explain where in Genesis 3:15 it says that Jesus would be born a human?
Genesis 3:15
14So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,

“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush b your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

The seed of a woman refers to Mary, the human, giving birth to Jesus the human.

Are you referring to the offspring of the woman?
God will make enemies of the offspring of the serpent, or devil. Those that are not born again....
And the woman, who is understood to be Mary.

Those who are not born again cannot bruise the serpents head.

Jesus is the offspring of Mary.
Who is the Father of Jesus?

The Father of Jesus is YHWH. Though not biologically.

Yes, you're right.
Jesus was 100% a human.

Agreed.

And He was 100% God.
It's known as the hypostatic union.
Look it up.
If you don't believe Jesus is God, you cannot call yourself a Christian.

I’m a Christian. I believe exactly what Jesus believes.

Do you agree with Jesus in his belief that his Father is the only true God?

John 17
3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

John 20
17“Do not cling to Me,” Jesus said, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go and tell My brothers, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.’ ”

If Jesus was just a man, you will die in your sins.
1 Corinthians 14:14-17
14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.
15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised.
16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either.
17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.

Not according to scripture.

1 Tim 2
5For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave Himself as a ransom for all—the testimony that was given at just the right time.

John 10:30
"I and the Father are one.”

Colossians 2:9
For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,

I agree, but what do you think those verses mean in their context?

The SON OF GOD needed to receive the Holy Spirit?

Yes, thats what the Bible says in Matt 3:16. Is there anything to the contrary?

Jesus stated that He was to be baptized to fulfill all righteousness...
all the things being made right by God.
Matthew 3:15
15Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.

Indeed. And John’s water baptism is a water baptism of repentance (Acts 19:4)

So why, in your belief, do you believe God took a water baptism of repentance?

Again I ask you,
WHO is the Father of Jesus?

Here's a hint:
Luke 1:35

Agreed. And who was Jesus descended from? Luke 3:38

Agreed. This is when Jesus' Ministry began.


Men come back to life?
Men ascend to heaven after death?

How was Jesus resurrected?
By whose power?

God raised Jesus from the dead.

Hebrews 5
7During the days of Jesus’ earthly life, He offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the One who could save Him from death, and He was heard because of His reverence

I agree that Christians should not invent their own doctrines.
But this is exactly what you're doing in this post.

I have not invented any of my own doctrines. If you prefer I can actually reply to everything just by quoting scripture.

I'm afraid you'll have to find out about the Trinity.

Okay, but it doesn’t seem to be explained or described in the Bible so where do you recommend I find out about it?

 

[GodsGrace]

Amen to that.
The Word gave up a lot though, when He took on flesh.

It's part of the sacrifice He made.
God became like a man,
so man could become like God.

(not in the mormon sense).

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus is my lord and savior. How about you?

Jesus being your Lord and Savior is not enough to be called a Christian.
This is not to say that you're not saved...
You're just not following the Christian Faith.

In order to be called a Christian you must
Believe Jesus is divine/God (or your worshipping a man)
If He is not God and just a man, His death will not save you. (then any man could have died for our sins).
You must believe that Jesus died and was resurrected by the power of God - the entire Godhead.
You must adhere to one of the creeds.
If you don't believe in the Trinity, you cannot believe Jesus is God.
God is not born,
God is from the beginning,
As Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega....
God cannot die, thus the resurrection.

If you do not believe the above, how can you call yourself a Christian?

The seed of a woman refers to Mary, the human, giving birth to Jesus the human.

Jesus was 100% human and 100% divine.
He was divine from BEFORE He was born.
God cannot just come into being - He must be from the beginning.
In the beginning was the Word
John 1:1

Those who are not born again cannot bruise the serpents head.

Actually Genesis 3:15 is referring to Jesus bruising the serpent's head.

The Father of Jesus is YHWH. Though not biologically.

That makes Jesus God. He has the nature of God.
Now to decide as of WHEN He existed.

Micah 5:2
' But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Though you are little among the thousands of Judah,
Yet out of you shall come forth to Me
The One to be Ruler in Israel,
Whose goings forth are from of old,
From everlasting.'

John 3:13
No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

1 Corinthians 10:1-5
Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.

I’m a Christian. I believe exactly what Jesus believes.

Do you agree with Jesus in his belief that his Father is the only true God?

John 17
3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

John 20
17“Do not cling to Me,” Jesus said, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go and tell My brothers, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.’ ”

I agree. There is only one God.
You speak of John 17:3
Who IS Jesus Christ that God has sent?
Is He the Word in John 1:1?
John states that Jesus was always with God and that He was God.
How do you explain that?

I hope you understand that Jesus could not outrightly declare He was God.
He wanted His ministry to continue for as long as possible and He would have been killed
immediately if He so stated.

BUT
Who causes miracles to happen?
Man?

Who can forgive sin?
Man?

Jesus did both.

Not according to scripture.

I had posted 1 Corinthians 14:14-17 and the above is your reply?
Could you read it again and explain how it is that if Jesus is not God and resurrected we will NOT die in our sins.
If Jesus was a man, we certainly WILL die in our sins.
Do you accept that the sin against God in the Garden was so egregious that a man could not pay for it, but it had to be paid by someone in the same category as God....IOW, It had to be paid by God.

Jesus said:
John 10:17-18
“I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again”

Jesus also never sinned, making Him the only "person" that could have atoned for our sins.
This is because He was also God.

There is no person that has never sinned.
For all fall short of the glory of God. Romans 3

1 Tim 2
5For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave Himself as a ransom for all—the testimony that was given at just the right time.

See above.

I agree, but what do you think those verses mean in their context?

John 10:10 I and the Father are one. There are Not 2 beings between Father and Son but only 1 being.
They are ONE in being, nature, substance, etc.

Colossians 2:9 In Jesus is the fullness of deity. What does that mean to YOU?
Fullness of deity means that Jesus is God.
He is full of deity.
He is full of God.

Yes, thats what the Bible says in Matt 3:16. Is there anything to the contrary?

Please explain how Matthew 3:16 states that Jesus received the Holy Spirit.
It states that the Spirit landed on Him...not that it indwelt Him.

This is the only time that the 3 Persons of God appeared in the NT.
The Father
The Son
The Holy Spirit

All 3 are God.

Indeed. And John’s water baptism is a water baptism of repentance (Acts 19:4)

Are you saying that Jesus needed to repent from His sins??

So why, in your belief, do you believe God took a water baptism of repentance?

It's says why in the verse I posted.
To fulfill all righteousness.
To do the right thing by God.
It was to signal the beginning of His ministry.
John said that someone greater would come after him....
to baptize with the Holy Spirit (not to RECEIVE the Holy Spirit).
Jesus did the baptizing, not the receiving.

Agreed. And who was Jesus descended from? Luke 3:38

It doesn't matter except to fulfill scripture.
The point is that Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus is God.

I have not invented any of my own doctrines. If you prefer I can actually reply to everything just by quoting scripture.
Okay, but it doesn’t seem to be explained or described in the Bible so where do you recommend I find out about it?

You have made up your own doctrine.
You haven't replied to my verses and I wish you would.
You can find out about the Trinity in your Christian church.
If they don't believe in the Trinity - stop going there.

 

[Runningman]

Jesus being your Lord and Savior is not enough to be called a Christian.
This is not to say that you're not saved...
You're just not following the Christian Faith.

In order to be called a Christian you must
Believe Jesus is divine/God (or your worshipping a man)
If He is not God and just a man, His death will not save you. (then any man could have died for our sins).
You must believe that Jesus died and was resurrected by the power of God - the entire Godhead.
You must adhere to one of the creeds.
If you don't believe in the Trinity, you cannot believe Jesus is God.
God is not born,
God is from the beginning,
As Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega....
God cannot die, thus the resurrection.

A Christian is a follower of Christ [Jesus] and his teachings. If you abide in Jesus and Jesus' words abide in you, then you are truly his disciple and he is your lord in every sense of the word. You will also believe what Jesus does, such as his teaching about the Father being the only true God in John 17:3. Jesus never directly said he is God. At best, it's your interpretation and opinion.

If you do not believe the above, how can you call yourself a Christian?

I will ask you the same.

Jesus was 100% human and 100% divine.
He was divine from BEFORE He was born.
God cannot just come into being - He must be from the beginning.
In the beginning was the Word
John 1:1

John 1:1 doesn't say what your commentary says.

Actually Genesis 3:15 is referring to Jesus bruising the serpent's head.

That makes Jesus God. He has the nature of God.
Now to decide as of WHEN He existed.

Having the divine nature of God doesn't make someone God or anyone partaking of the divine nature would be God.

2 Peter 1
4Through these He has given us His precious and magnificent promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, now that you have escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Micah 5:2
' But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Though you are little among the thousands of Judah,
Yet out of you shall come forth to Me
The One to be Ruler in Israel,
Whose goings forth are from of old,
From everlasting.'

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

1 Corinthians 10:1-5
Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.

Jesus isn't YHWH, the I AM, God, etc. Jesus is a servant of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. God said He would be remembered by a specific name and in a specific way, but that isn't how Jesus is remembered.

Acts 3
13The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus.

Exodus 3
14God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”

15God also told Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.

I agree. There is only one God.
You speak of John 17:3
Who IS Jesus Christ that God has sent?
Is He the Word in John 1:1?
John states that Jesus was always with God and that He was God.
How do you explain that?

It says the "word was God" it doesn't say "the word was Jesus." This refers to the logos of God.

I hope you understand that Jesus could not outrightly declare He was God.

God always outrightly declares Himself to be God. Jesus did not do that.

He wanted His ministry to continue for as long as possible and He would have been killed
immediately if He so stated.

Jesus didn't begin his ministry until into his 30's when he took John's water baptism of repentance and received the Holy Spirit from God. Matt 3:16,17

I had posted 1 Corinthians 14:14-17 and the above is your reply?
Could you read it again and explain how it is that if Jesus is not God and resurrected we will NOT die in our sins.
If Jesus was a man, we certainly WILL die in our sins.
Do you accept that the sin against God in the Garden was so egregious that a man could not pay for it, but it had to be paid by someone in the same category as God....IOW, It had to be paid by God.

According to scripture, a man did die for our sins.

Do you believe God became sin or did Jesus become sin?

2 Cor. 5
21God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.

John 10:17-18
“I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again”

Jesus was giving a prophecy, but he didn't literally raise himself from the dead. John 2:22 says he was raised from the dead, clearly by Someone external (God) to himself. The Bible says repeatedly the Father raised Jesus from the dead.

22After He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this. Then they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.

Jesus also never sinned, making Him the only "person" that could have atoned for our sins.
This is because He was also God.

Jesus never sinned because he obeyed and followed God's laws. God gave these laws to regular people. Keeping God's laws doesn't make someone God.

John 10:10 I and the Father are one. There are Not 2 beings between Father and Son but only 1 being.
They are ONE in being, nature, substance, etc.

It applies to Christians too:

John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

Colossians 2:9 In Jesus is the fullness of deity. What does that mean to YOU?
Fullness of deity means that Jesus is God.
He is full of deity.
He is full of God.

Being filled with the fullness of God doesn't make someone God:

Eph 3
19of the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

Please explain how Matthew 3:16 states that Jesus received the Holy Spirit.
It states that the Spirit landed on Him...not that it indwelt Him.

He didn't receive the Holy Spirit until Matt 3:16 and the Spirit stayed with him.

All 3 are God.

Matt 3:16,17 doesn't say "All three are God."

Are you saying that Jesus needed to repent from His sins??

Why did God take a water baptism of repentence?

It's says why in the verse I posted.
To fulfill all righteousness.
To do the right thing by God.
It was to signal the beginning of His ministry.
John said that someone greater would come after him....
to baptize with the Holy Spirit (not to RECEIVE the Holy Spirit).
Jesus did the baptizing, not the receiving.

Jesus, a man on earth, asked them a question:

Luke 20
3“I will also ask you a question,” Jesus replied. “Tell Me: 4John’s baptism—was it from heaven, or from men?”

The correct answer is it is from heaven. Therefore John's water baptism came from heaven and not from men. It came from God, not Jesus.

It doesn't matter except to fulfill scripture.
The point is that Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus is God.

Not according to scripture.

You have made up your own doctrine.
You haven't replied to my verses and I wish you would.
You can find out about the Trinity in your Christian church.
If they don't believe in the Trinity - stop going there.

I wouldn't go to a Trinitarian church, but thank you.

 

[Free]

The idea is either God literally knew Jeremiah or He literally didn't. There isn't a middle ground here. If God doesn't literally know those He foreknows, but still speaks as though they have personhood then in the logos they exist. That's the only example of Jesus pre-existing.

Where if Jesus said to have spoken or did anything before his birth?

Paul clearly thinks Jesus preexisted:

1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Col 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,
Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

And the writer of Hebrews:

Heb 1:8 But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
...
Heb 1:10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
Heb 1:11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment,
Heb 1:12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.”
Heb 1:13 And to which of the angels has he ever said, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”?

Notice that all these passages are saying the exact same thing as John 1:1-3:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The only logical conclusion is that John, Paul, and the writer of Hebrews believed Jesus was the eternal, incarnate Son of God. All the above passages are false otherwise.

And, of course, it must be added that all the above is perfectly consistent with what Jesus thought of himself:

Joh 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
…
Joh 6:62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?

Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

Joh 16:28 I came from the Father and have come into the world, and now I am leaving the world and going to the Father.”
Joh 16:29 His disciples said, “Ah, now you are speaking plainly and not using figurative speech!
Joh 16:30 Now we know that you know all things and do not need anyone to question you; this is why we believe that you came from God.”

(The disciples now understand and believe that Jesus "came from God.")

Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
Joh 17:6 “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.
Joh 17:7 Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you.
Joh 17:8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.

(All ESV.)

There is only one understanding based on a plain reading of the texts: Jesus truly believed he preexisted with the Father, telling the disciples that he did. So, it should be no surprise then that we see John and other NT writers saying the very same thing.

Then can you prove Jesus is God in nature and explain the instances where he is not God in nature?

I have given numerous passages which prove Jesus is God in nature. It makes no sense to ask to "explain the instances where he is not God in nature," since God cannot cease to be God. As God in human flesh, the Son is going to be limited in what he can do as God and can choose to limit his use of his divine nature, but he can never cease to be God.

Jeremiah 1
5“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you...

Knew what? That he would appoint Jeremiah as a prophet.

The only God mentioned in the passage is the Father.

Phil 2
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

That's begging the question. Paul has already said in verse 6 that Jesus is God in nature. That Paul mentions God the Father doesn't mean that Jesus isn't God the Son.

Form in Phil 2:6 means the outward appearance. It refers to what one visually sees with their eyeballs. See also Mark 16:12 where Jesus looked visually different. God Himself is invisible, Jesus is not invisible, hence he

G3444. morphé
Strong's Concordance
morphé: form, shape
Original Word: μορφή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: morphé
Phonetic Spelling: (mor-fay')
Definition: form, shape
Usage: form, shape, outward appearance.

Look at the context and ask yourself what does it even mean to "look like God"? And what does it mean to look like God prior to becoming a man? And what does it mean for Jesus to look like God and then empty himself--empty himself of what and how? And what does it mean for him to look like God, empty himself, and then take the appearance of a servant?

If morphe in this passage is only visual appearance, then none of the above really makes a whole lot of sense, although it still supports his preexistence.

 

[Free]

The textbook definition of morphe refers to the outward appearance. It has nothing to do with the distinctive nature of the person, but literally it's their appearance.

To get the correct understanding of this, there is also Mark 16:12 where Jesus changed form. If you insist Jesus changed distinctive nature then the logical next step would be he ceased being God.

What I gave is from NT Greek scholars. The issue is that Jesus was "in the form of God" and only after "taking the form of a servant," did he empty himself. That is, according to Wuest, regarding verse 7:

'The word "took" is an aorist participle. A rule of Greek grammar says that the action of an aorist participle precedes the action of the leading verb. The leading verb here is "emptied." That means the act of taking preceded the act of emptying. That in turn means that the act of taking upon Himself the form of a servant preceded and was the cause of the emptying.'

Remember, as I quoted from M. R. Vincent previously, the form is the outward expression of the inmost nature, but is not identical to it; the mode of expression "is identified with it, as its natural and appropriate expression."

Wuest says further about verse 7:

'When expressing Himself as a bondslave come to serve, He necessarily exchanged one form of expression for another. In verse six He was in His pre-incarnate state expressing Himself as Deity. In verse seven He expresses Himself in incarnation as a bondslave. This is the direct opposite of what took place at the Transfiguration. There we have the same word "form" used, but with a prefixed preposition signifying change. We could translate "And the mode of His outward expression was changed before them, and His face did shine as the sun, and His raiment was white as the light" (Matt. 17:2). Our Lord's usual mode of expression while on earth previous to His resurrection was that of a servant. . . . But now, His outward expression as a servant ceased, and He gave outward expression of the glory of His Deity.'

As to what Jesus emptied himself of, Wuest gives the following:

'He did not empty Himself of His deity, since Paul says that the expression of His deity was a fact after His incarnation, that expression implying the possession of the essence of Deity. He set aside the outward expression of His deity when expressing Himself as a bondslave. It was the outward expression of the essence of His deity which our Lord emptied Himself of during the time when He was giving outward expression of Himself as a bondslave. . . . When our Lord set aside the expression of Deity in order that He might express Himself as a bondslave, He was setting aside His legitimate and natural desires and prerogatives as Deity. The basic, natural desire and prerogative of Deity is that of being glorified. But when Deity sets these aside, it sets its desires aside, and setting its desires aside, it sets Self aside. The pronoun "Himself" is in the accusative case. The action of the verb terminates in the thing expressed by that case. The act of emptying terminated in the self life of the Son of God. Our Lord emptied Himself of self. This agrees perfectly with the context which is an example of humility and self-abnegation for the benefit of others.'


It all fits with Jesus being both God and man, and in expressing one or the other of those natures. At no time did he cease being God, even though he took on (added) human nature.

 

[Hopeful 2]

It's part of the sacrifice He made.

Yep, a big sacrifice.

God became like a man,

The Word became a man.

so man could become like God.

If you truly feel that way, why is it so hard for you to believe we can walk as Jesus walked...sinlessly ?

(not in the mormon sense).

Of course...

 

[Free]

If you truly feel that way, why is it so hard for you to believe we can walk as Jesus walked...sinlessly ?

Because that isn't biblical. It's also not the topic of this thread.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yep, a big sacrifice.

The Word became a man.

If you truly feel that way, why is it so hard for you to believe we can walk as Jesus walked...sinlessly ?

Of course...

Because we're not Jesus Hopeful.
And Jesus is the ONLY human person that ever lived that did not sin.
Adam SPOKE to God and even HE sinned.
I really worry that you're desensitized to sin and do not even know when you're sinning.
But I know you're doing your best and respect that.

Your belief system totally destroys other verses too:
John 20:23 Why would sins have to be forgiven?
Mark 2:8-11 Jesus can forgive the sins of man. A paraplegic man could sin?
1 Peter 2:24 Jesus bore our sins. After the crucifixion, no man ever sinned again? All sins are forgiven, past, present and future.
1 John 2:1 John is saying we will sin.

The NT exhorts us to present ourselves blameless before God.
Diligent to do good works.
We are to be spotless.

And God will know if we made the proper effort to be such.
I believe I'm a child of God, doing my best to please Him, but sure He is so pure and Holy that this cannot be.

 

[GodsGrace]

What I gave is from NT Greek scholars. The issue is that Jesus was "in the form of God" and only after "taking the form of a servant," did he empty himself. That is, according to Wuest, regarding verse 7:

'The word "took" is an aorist participle. A rule of Greek grammar says that the action of an aorist participle precedes the action of the leading verb. The leading verb here is "emptied." That means the act of taking preceded the act of emptying. That in turn means that the act of taking upon Himself the form of a servant preceded and was the cause of the emptying.'

Remember, as I quoted from M. R. Vincent previously, the form is the outward expression of the inmost nature, but is not identical to it; the mode of expression "is identified with it, as its natural and appropriate expression."

Wuest says further about verse 7:

'When expressing Himself as a bondslave come to serve, He necessarily exchanged one form of expression for another. In verse six He was in His pre-incarnate state expressing Himself as Deity. In verse seven He expresses Himself in incarnation as a bondslave. This is the direct opposite of what took place at the Transfiguration. There we have the same word "form" used, but with a prefixed preposition signifying change. We could translate "And the mode of His outward expression was changed before them, and His face did shine as the sun, and His raiment was white as the light" (Matt. 17:2). Our Lord's usual mode of expression while on earth previous to His resurrection was that of a servant. . . . But now, His outward expression as a servant ceased, and He gave outward expression of the glory of His Deity.'

As to what Jesus emptied himself of, Wuest gives the following:

'He did not empty Himself of His deity, since Paul says that the expression of His deity was a fact after His incarnation, that expression implying the possession of the essence of Deity. He set aside the outward expression of His deity when expressing Himself as a bondslave. It was the outward expression of the essence of His deity which our Lord emptied Himself of during the time when He was giving outward expression of Himself as a bondslave. . . . When our Lord set aside the expression of Deity in order that He might express Himself as a bondslave, He was setting aside His legitimate and natural desires and prerogatives as Deity. The basic, natural desire and prerogative of Deity is that of being glorified. But when Deity sets these aside, it sets its desires aside, and setting its desires aside, it sets Self aside. The pronoun "Himself" is in the accusative case. The action of the verb terminates in the thing expressed by that case. The act of emptying terminated in the self life of the Son of God. Our Lord emptied Himself of self. This agrees perfectly with the context which is an example of humility and self-abnegation for the benefit of others.'


It all fits with Jesus being both God and man, and in expressing one or the other of those natures. At no time did he cease being God, even though he took on (added) human nature.

Such great posts!

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

The debate between trinitarians and non-trinitarians has been going on for centuries and is unlikely to be resolved anytime soon. Both sides claim to have biblical and historical support for their views, but they also have different ways of understanding and applying those sources. Ultimately, it comes down to one’s faith and personal relationship with God.

I believe in the Trinity, but I also find the language "three disctinctive co-equal persons" confusing and misleading, it often falls into either tritheism (three gods) or modalism (one god shifting between three forms). God is one who manifests himself as the Father in heaven, the Spirit on earth and the Son between heaven and earth - simultaneously. To be clear, this is NOT modalism, since the same God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit SIMULTANEOUSLY, not shifting from one to another.

The closest analogy I use is Zoom meeting - you, your image on your local client and your image on your listener's client. Althought this "you" is a dynamic array of pixels on a screen, anybody who knows you will see it as you yourself, anybody who respects you right in front of you will respect you on Zoom as well; even if they don't know what you look like, they can still recognize you with your speech pattern. Nobody with a right mind would argue that this is another flat person living in a screen, or this is some kind of a magic trick causing them to hallucinate.