Why Trinitarians And Non-Trinitarians Have Different Beliefs?

[Hopeful 2]

I have no idea what you're getting at. How must it be that have I gotten "only" and "son" mixed up?

I am talking about the Greek word monogenes, often translated as "only begotten," which was the point you were addressing.

How can your Greek word for "son" mean "only".
Is Jesus the only "only" of God ?

 

[Runningman]

Why not just worship and obey them one at a time, or all together at once ?
I think it was the catholics that came up with the term "trinity", so that sours me on the entire subject.
Their doctrines don't warrant in-depth study.

I don't want to step on anyone's toes, but the Protestant reformation is telling of the possible disagreements people can have with Catholicism. However, I don't really think the Protestants took it far enough. They severed from the Catholic church to an extent, but they should have did a complete 180 degree turn. Catholicism is practically a blueprint for what not to believe or do.

The Protestants carried the Trinity over from the Catholics and the Trinity wasn't sanctioned as official church creed until the 400's. Despite the Trinity being overturned many times by the council of Nicaea, the archbishop Athanasius was a strong proponent of Trinitarianism and continued to zealously promote it throughout the Roman empire. Eventually Constantine accepted it (Trinitarianism) and it became a state-sanctioned religion. After that, they pretty much began legally forcing it on everybody, even with violence if necessary.

There is a very interesting history of how this all came about. It's worth investigating so we don't forget where all of this started.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

So far I have only been speaking about the Son, as it is absolutely central that we see that he is truly God, like the Father. There is much less in the NT about the Holy Spirit, but that is because one of the main purposes of the Holy Spirit is to bring glory to Jesus. The Son is the central person in all of Scripture--much of the OT points to him and his sacrifice; in his name alone we have salvation. So it makes sense that we read less of the Holy Spirit.

Having said that, there is enough that we can see that the Holy Spirit is a distinct person from both the Father and the Son, yet is also truly God. For example:

Joh 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,
Joh 14:17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you. (ESV)

Joh 15:26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me. (ESV)

First, the Holy Spirit is "another," that is, one who is similar to Jesus but distinct. That speaks of personhood. Second, "Helper" clearly speaks to personhood, especially since it also means "advocate." An advocate can only be a person. Here is how parakletos is defined:

NAS Word Usage - Total: 5

1. summoned, called to one's side, esp. called to one's aid
   1. one who pleads another's cause before a judge, a pleader, counsel for defense, legal assistant, an advocate
   2. one who pleads another's cause with one, an intercessor
      1. of Christ in his exaltation at God's right hand, pleading with God the Father for the pardon of our sins
   3. in the widest sense, a helper, succourer, aider, assistant
      1. of the Holy Spirit destined to take the place of Christ with the apostles (after his ascension to the Father), to lead them to a deeper knowledge of the gospel truth, and give them divine strength needed to enable them to undergo trials and persecutions on behalf of the divine kingdom

https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/parakletos.html

John uses the same word here, for "advocate":

1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. (ESV)

Notice that Jesus is said, by John, to be an advocate. It is not insignificant, then, that he records Jesus saying that he will send "another parakletos."

Additionally, we see these acts of personal agency attributed to the Holy Spirit:

Acts: Matt 4:1; Acts 8:39, 16:7
Listens: John 16:13
Speaks: John 16:13-15; Acts 1:16, 10:19, 11:12, 11:28, 13:2, 15:28; 1 Tim 4:1; Heb 3:7
Can be lied to: Acts 5:3, which is the same as lying to God (5:9)
Bears witness: Rom 8:16; Heb 10:15; 1 John 5:6
Helps, intercedes, and searches: John 14:16, 15:26, 16:7; Rom 8:26-27; 1 Cor 2:10
Teaches: Luke 12:12; John 16:13; 1 Cor 2:13
Gives gifts: 1 Cor 12:11; Heb 2:4
Leads: John 16:13; Gal 5:18, Heb 9:8
Can be grieved: Eph 4:30
Can be outraged: Heb 10:29
Can be blasphemed: Matt 12:31-32
Convicts: John 16:8-11

And on it goes.

Of course, we also have the Great Commission:

Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (ESV)

Notice that "name" is singular. This is what M. R. Vincent says in his Word Studies in the New Testament regarding this verse:

"The name, as in the Lord's Prayer (“Hallowed be thy name”), is the expression of the sum total of the divine Being: not his designation as God or Lord, but the formula in which all his attributes and characteristics are summed up. It is equivalent to his person. The finite mind can deal with him only through his name; but his name is of no avail detached from his nature. When one is baptized into the name of the Trinity, he professes to acknowledge and appropriate God in all that he is and in all that he does for man. He recognizes and depends upon God the Father as his Creator and Preserver; receives Jesus Christ as his only Mediator and Redeemer, and his pattern of life; and confesses the Holy Spirit as his Sanctifier and Comforter."

I would also add that since we know the Father and the Son are distinct persons yet both truly God, it necessarily follows that the Holy Spirit is a distinct person that is also truly God. And since know there is only God, the Trinity is the best explanation.

Yes, I see what you are saying, which reminds me of: https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.or...s;,in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. Thank you.

Love, Walter And Debbie

 

[Free]

How can your Greek word for "son" mean "only".
Is Jesus the only "only" of God ?

I don't know how you can think I am making such an argument. Please reread what I wrote.

This is the context:

wondering said:

"The Word became flesh.
But it always existed IN GOD, as the Logos, His reason, His thoughts.
Begotten means something unique...it does not mean something that came into being - at least not in biblical theology."

You replied:

'I don't know where you got that definition, but Merriam Webster say..."
transitive verb
1: to procreate as the father : SIRE
He died without begetting an heir.
2: to produce especially as an effect or outgrowth
Violence only begets more violence.'


Clearly, then, you are discussing the meaning of "begotten" as it applies to the Son. I responded with:

'The Greek word used of the Son is monogenes, and means "unique," "only," "one and only." It is used only nine times in the NT; five of those times it is used of Christ and even then, only by John (John 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9). The other four times, the KJV translates it as “only” (Luke 7:12; 8:42), “only child” (Luke 9:38), and “only begotten” (Heb 11:17). It is never translated as “conceived” nor does it refer to “begetting” in the sense of being created or coming into existence at a point in time.'

How is it that you think that I am confusing "son" with "only"? I am only addressing the Greek word monogenes, which is translated in the KJV as "only begotten" and in the ESV as "only," in John 1:14 and 18.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I don't want to step on anyone's toes, but the Protestant reformation is telling of the possible disagreements people can have with Catholicism. However, I don't really think the Protestants took it far enough. They severed from the Catholic church to an extent, but they should have did a complete 180 degree turn. Catholicism is practically a blueprint for what not to believe or do.

The Protestants carried the Trinity over from the Catholics and the Trinity wasn't sanctioned as official church creed until the 400's. Despite the Trinity being overturned many times by the council of Nicaea, the archbishop Athanasius was a strong proponent of Trinitarianism and continued to zealously promote it throughout the Roman empire. Eventually Constantine accepted it (Trinitarianism) and it became a state-sanctioned religion. After that, they pretty much began legally forcing it on everybody, even with violence if necessary.

There is a very interesting history of how this all came about. It's worth investigating so we don't forget where all of this started.

Don't waste your time on false doctrines.
Study the real things of God.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I don't know how you can think I am making such an argument. Please reread what I wrote.

This is the context:

wondering said:

"The Word became flesh.
But it always existed IN GOD, as the Logos, His reason, His thoughts.
Begotten means something unique...it does not mean something that came into being - at least not in biblical theology."

You replied:

'I don't know where you got that definition, but Merriam Webster say..."
transitive verb
1: to procreate as the father : SIRE
He died without begetting an heir.
2: to produce especially as an effect or outgrowth
Violence only begets more violence.'


Clearly, then, you are discussing the meaning of "begotten" as it applies to the Son. I responded with:

'The Greek word used of the Son is monogenes, and means "unique," "only," "one and only." It is used only nine times in the NT; five of those times it is used of Christ and even then, only by John (John 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9). The other four times, the KJV translates it as “only” (Luke 7:12; 8:42), “only child” (Luke 9:38), and “only begotten” (Heb 11:17). It is never translated as “conceived” nor does it refer to “begetting” in the sense of being created or coming into existence at a point in time.'

How is it that you think that I am confusing "son" with "only"? I am only addressing the Greek word monogenes, which is translated in the KJV as "only begotten" and in the ESV as "only," in John 1:14 and 18.

From your post #40...
"The Greek word used of the Son is monogenes, and means "unique," "only," "one and only."
Care to correct that ?

 

[Free]

From your post #40...
"The Greek word used of the Son is monogenes, and means "unique," "only," "one and only."
Care to correct that ?

No. It says what I want. Again, context of the discussion is important. See my previous post.

 

[Hopeful 2]

No. It says what I want. Again, context of the discussion is important. See my previous post.

I think you defined the wrong word.

 

[Free]

I think you defined the wrong word.

Based on what, exactly?

 

[GodsGrace]

Does this mean I am more a Trinitarian , Non-Trinitarian or none of the abpve

Have you received any replies?
Your post does not signify whether or not you are Trinitarian.
It does seem to me, however, that you do acknowledge the Trinity
but correctly admit that you (or anyone) cannot really understand it.
To be a Trinitarian you must believe that:
That there are 3 PERSONS in God.
Each Person is separate.
Each Person has the divine nature of God.
Each Person always existed as or in God.

I think that's it unless Free would like to add anything.

If you believe the above, you can say you're a trinitarian.
(as any Christian should be able to).

 

[Runningman]

Don't waste your time on false doctrines.
Study the real things of God.

I agree. False doctrines decorated with Bible verses that don't say what the doctrine says are a good indicator something isn't right, thus I am a non-Trinitarian.

 

[GodsGrace]

The logos could be understood as things God knows, i.e., His thoughts, words, reasoning, etc. These are things in the mind of God. The way the logos is God or godly is that the Word is the mind of God. Only God's spirit knows the mind of God (1 Corinthians 2:11) so the question for me is does the Son know everything the Father knows? If not, then that's enough for me to know the Son is not the Word of God.

Hi Runningman,
Can't remember if I welcomed you to the Forum.
Nice to have you here.

I agree to your understanding of the word LOGOS.
And yes, the Word is the Logos...
In the beginning was the Word/Logos.

If by THE SON, you mean Jesus when He was on earth, then I'd have to say that He did NOT know everything God knows because He was limited in His knowledge. Jesus was not omnipresent while on earth and He was not omniscient while on earth.

If by THE SON, you mean the 2nd Person of the Trinity, then, YES, the 2nd Person of the Trinity, the Son, knows everything God knows because, as you've stated, this Person is the Logos of God and thus MUST know all that God knows.

Matt 24:36 is one of many examples of Jesus not knowing what God knows.

Matthew 24:36
36“However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows.
Jesus was telling the Disciples many things.
He was incarnated and on earth at this time.
Remember that He called Himself The Son,
The Son of Man.
Matthew 20:28.
"The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many."
Mark 14:62. "And Jesus said, 'I am; and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven. ...
Jesus was referring to Himself.

Also, Jesus CAME DOWN from heaven - the only one...
John 6:38
“I have come down from heaven,

All of the versions/translations I have seen for John 1:30 say Jesus is a man.

30This is He of whom I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because He was before me.’

Correct. Jesus was a man.
Could John the Baptist have said....God comes after me?
Jesus got crucified because He was believed to be God.
He told parables to the Priests would not know His mission till He had completed it.
It makes total common sense logic that Jesus should be called a man.
In any case, He was 100% man and 100% God.
The hypostatic Union.

My point was that a man being God doesn't make sense in this context.

See above.

Seems in this case, as far as I can tell, Jesus being a begotten Son refers to his beginning point.

Jesus has no beginning point.
Begotten is a terrible word for the English speaking to understand.
It does NOT mean that Jesus came into being at some point.
It means He is God's ONLY and UNIQUE Son, that always existed as God's logos.

Then there is a severe contradiction with Exodus 3 where God said He is the I AM and referred to Himself as YHWH being the name He would be remembered forever. The simplest solution that makes sense for me to remove the contradiction is that Jesus isn't himself God. It would seem the "I am" verse of John 8:58 works better with Jesus being [the man] prophesied about.

Don't agree.
God always said that He HIMSELF would save His people.
Jesus saved.
So He is God.

Zephaniah 3:17​

The Lord your God is in your midst, a mighty one who will save; he will rejoice over you with gladness; he will quiet you by his love; he will exult over you with loud singing.​

Isaiah 12:2​

“Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and will not be afraid; for the Lord God is my strength and my song, and he has become my salvation.”​

Only God can save us...
If Jesus was just a man, His sacrifice was in vain and we're lost in our sins.
Romans 5:1-2
1Therefore, since we have been made right in God’s sight by faith, we have peacea with God because of what Jesus Christ our Lord has done for us.
2Because of our faith, Christ has brought us into this place of undeserved privilege where we now stand, and we confidently and joyfully look forward to sharing God’s glory.
1 Corinthians 15:17
And if Christ has not been raised, then your faith is useless and you are still guilty of your sins.

Exodus 3
14God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”

15God also told Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The LORD,[YHWH] the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.

Jesus didn't say he was correct, but rather responded with criticism regarding his doubting attitude and not being blessed for requiring material proof of his resurrection.

Just was worshipped as the "son of God" in all contexts.

Jesus accepts worship in context of being the son of God, but not as God. Worship, or a bowing down, to people of high rank and status is a thing in Biblical culture. It doesn't mean someone has become your God. God the Father never sanctioned nor commanded Christians to worship Jesus, but Jesus directed worship to God the Father (John 4:23,24)

The above is true.
But in this case, Jesus was making miracles and forgiving sins.
Only God can do this.

Any worship of Jesus in heaven and/or earth is just in context of respect as Lord of the church, but the glory goes to God the Father only.

Philippians 2
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Thomas said:
My Lord AND My God.

Thomas understood what he was saying.

 

[Runningman]

Hi Runningman,
Can't remember if I welcomed you to the Forum.
Nice to have you here.

I agree to your understanding of the word LOGOS.
And yes, the Word is the Logos...
In the beginning was the Word/Logos.

If by THE SON, you mean Jesus when He was on earth, then I'd have to say that He did NOT know everything God knows because He was limited in His knowledge. Jesus was not omnipresent while on earth and He was not omniscient while on earth.

If by THE SON, you mean the 2nd Person of the Trinity, then, YES, the 2nd Person of the Trinity, the Son, knows everything God knows because, as you've stated, this Person is the Logos of God and thus MUST know all that God knows.


Matthew 24:36
36“However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows.
Jesus was telling the Disciples many things.
He was incarnated and on earth at this time.
Remember that He called Himself The Son,
The Son of Man.
Matthew 20:28.
"The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many."
Mark 14:62. "And Jesus said, 'I am; and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven. ...
Jesus was referring to Himself.

Also, Jesus CAME DOWN from heaven - the only one...
John 6:38
“I have come down from heaven,



Correct. Jesus was a man.
Could John the Baptist have said....God comes after me?
Jesus got crucified because He was believed to be God.
He told parables to the Priests would not know His mission till He had completed it.
It makes total common sense logic that Jesus should be called a man.
In any case, He was 100% man and 100% God.
The hypostatic Union.


See above.


Jesus has no beginning point.
Begotten is a terrible word for the English speaking to understand.
It does NOT mean that Jesus came into being at some point.
It means He is God's ONLY and UNIQUE Son, that always existed as God's logos.



Don't agree.
God always said that He HIMSELF would save His people.
Jesus saved.
So He is God.

Zephaniah 3:17​

The Lord your God is in your midst, a mighty one who will save; he will rejoice over you with gladness; he will quiet you by his love; he will exult over you with loud singing.​

Isaiah 12:2​

“Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and will not be afraid; for the Lord God is my strength and my song, and he has become my salvation.”​

Only God can save us...
If Jesus was just a man, His sacrifice was in vain and we're lost in our sins.
Romans 5:1-2
1Therefore, since we have been made right in God’s sight by faith, we have peacea with God because of what Jesus Christ our Lord has done for us.
2Because of our faith, Christ has brought us into this place of undeserved privilege where we now stand, and we confidently and joyfully look forward to sharing God’s glory.
1 Corinthians 15:17
And if Christ has not been raised, then your faith is useless and you are still guilty of your sins.



The above is true.
But in this case, Jesus was making miracles and forgiving sins.
Only God can do this.

I find I disagree with all of the above interpretations, but I won't provide a lengthy explanation just to keep this concise. I'll address the last point with a question.

Also, thank you for the welcome!

Thomas said:
My Lord AND My God.

Thomas understood what he was saying.

If [doubting] Thomas knew what he was talking about then how come what he said isn't the answer regarding Jesus' identity that the Father revealed? The answer from the Father in heaven is that Jesus is the Christ and Son of the living God. The Father didn't say the Son is God. So is the answer from Thomas correct or the answer from God correct? I am putting my money on God. Therefore I would seek an alternative way to understand what Thomas said.

Matt 16
15“But what about you?” Jesus asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven.

 

[GodsGrace]

I find I disagree with all of the above interpretations, but I won't provide a lengthy explanation just to keep this concise. I'll address the last point with a question.

Also, thank you for the welcome!


If [doubting] Thomas knew what he was talking about then how come what he said isn't the answer regarding Jesus' identity that the Father revealed? The answer from the Father in heaven is that Jesus is the Christ and Son of the living God. The Father didn't say the Son is God. So is the answer from Thomas correct or the answer from God correct? I am putting my money on God. Therefore I would seek an alternative way to understand what Thomas said.

Matt 16
15“But what about you?” Jesus asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven.

OK
Let's make this easy.

If Jesus is the Son of God...
Is He God?

If you have a son...
Is he human?

Also, I'd like to point out that the bible CANNOT contradict itself.
God cannot say one thing and Thomas another....
They have to agree.

The only way God and Thomas could agree is if the Trinity is correct theology.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Based on what, exactly?

Based on the definition you suplied being the definition of "only" and not the definition of "Son".

 

[Hopeful 2]

Jesus has no beginning point.

There was no "Jesus" before the conception of Jesus.

 

[GodsGrace]

There was no "Jesus" before the conception of Jesus.

Correct. Jesus was born 2,000 years ago.

BUT, He was existent with the Father as the Logos from eternity past.

The 2nd Person of the Trinity,
The Word of God
has always existed.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Correct. Jesus was born 2,000 years ago.

BUT, He was existent with the Father as the Logos from eternity past.

The 2nd Person of the Trinity,
The Word of God
has always existed.

The Word was existent, not Jesus.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Word was existent, not Jesus.

I said you're correct.
I hope you believe that Jesus IS the Word incarnate...
john 1

 

[Runningman]

OK
Let's make this easy.

If Jesus is the Son of God...
Is He God?

No.

If you have a son...
Is he human?

Yes, but my son would not be me. My son would be an entirely different person. Furthermore, God isn't a human, but Jesus is a human.

Also, I'd like to point out that the bible CANNOT contradict itself.
God cannot say one thing and Thomas another....
They have to agree.

I agree with that, but the Bible can be misunderstood.

Is it possible that since Thomas did not say "You are God" that Thomas was just exclaiming at the fact Jesus was resurrected with holes in his hand and a hole in his side? That's how people talk when they see something amazing or incredible, even today. OMG is a pretty common phrase.

The only way God and Thomas could agree is if the Trinity is correct theology.

In my view, that doesn't follow. There would need to be a mention of the Trinity in the Bible first before I would consider that as a possibility. Rather than just looking at one possible option and disregarding all other possibilities, I would consider other possible options like the one I mentioned above. Or perhaps Thomas was praying to the Father? It's also telling that Jesus didn't praise him for his answer, actually he said Thomas wasn't blessed for his doubting attitude. Thomas seems like a doubter, a bit carnal and unspiritual to me. Peter had the answer from heaven and it turns out Jesus never explicitly said he is God. Seems if I had to make a choice I would go with Jesus isn't God.