Faith or Works?

[GodsGrace]

Hey All,
Now it's my turn to ask you a question.
Between salvation, and the believer performing good works, what must be done?

I promise this is not a trap. There is a Biblical answer.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

You mean what is necessary for salvation:
Faith or good works?

??

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
"You mean what is necessary for salvation:
Faith or good works?" Quote from wondering

No I don't wondering. There is something inbetween the salvation of the believer and his/her performing good works. Continue to think about it and search the scriptures. You will find it if you look for it.
Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Josef]

Hey All
"I'm sure you must know what BELIEVE means in Greek. So, actually, john 3,16 does contain works." Quote from wondering

John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Yes belief is a work. It is the work of God.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[GodsGrace]

Hey All
"I'm sure you must know what BELIEVE means in Greek. So, actually, john 3,16 does contain works." Quote from wondering

John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Yes belief is a work. It is the work of God.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

Josef. You need to use the reply feature.
Later when I'm at the computer..

 

[Randy]

Faith is not something new that was introduced by Jesus.
Hebrews 11 -actions by Faith that testify to their faith in God

Action that testify to their faith in Jesus.
Luke 5
Just then some men came, carrying a paralyzed man on a bed. They were trying to bring him in and lay him before Jesus; 19 but finding no way to bring him in because of the crowd, they went up on the roof and let him down with his bed through the tiles into the middle of the crowd in front of Jesus. 20 When he saw their faith, he said, ‘Friend, your sins are forgiven you.’
I don't see any works but the one asking, feared God, and believed in "Jesus's" Kingdom and received a judgment that was in his favor. The other asking something of Him in sarcasm, "If you are the Son of God get us off this cross", didn't receive a reply at all in his unbelief.
Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Likewise the Apostles by faith left everything and suffered for their testimony of Jesus even though the Jewish authorities forbid them from speaking anymore about Jesus. By faith they obeyed GOD who had sent Jesus into the world.

The LORD delights in those who fear him, who put their hope in his unfailing love.

Lift up your eyes to the heavens, look at the earth beneath; the heavens will vanish like smoke, the earth will wear out like a garment and its inhabitants die like flies. But my salvation will last forever, my righteousness will never fail.
Jesus to Paul
to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me

 

[donadams]

Hey All,
I know a trap question when I get one donadams. Nowhere in Scripture does it say, "faith alone." But the Bible does say "faith" alone. The only verse that comes close is James 2:24. We will touch on that verse later.

First, let's go to the most well-known verse in the Bible, John 3:16.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Belief in Jesus is the only requirement Jesus said was necessary for salvation. There is no argument that will win against this verse. The fact that Jesus said it should end this discussion. Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith.

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

That said, and pay attention here, this is the critically important caveat to the discussion: All, all other Scripture must agree with John 3:16. You have to have that mindset, or either Jesus, James, or Paul is lying. Yeah, that's how important this is.

Now let's look specifically at faith. The obvious place to look is Ephesians 2:8-10.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Grace is bestowed by God (we are made just), through faith (belief) that God provides (God's gift), in Jesus. This is not of works by man. We cannot brag that we did anything that warrants salvation. Believers are the product of God's work (not ours, God's work) We were Created in Christ unto (there's that future tense word again) good works. Works which God has previously (already) ordained (conferred by holy order) in which we are to walk (live our daily lives i.e. Keep walking everybody.).
Creation, in Christ, comes first. Then the work of salvation makes it possible to do good works. Nothing in this passage disagrees with John 3:16.

Now let's look at James.

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Justified - to be declared or made righteous in the sight of God.

I suspect this is the verse you were going to use had I taken the bait of the trap. It specifically says, "not by faith only." This makes it look like James is in direct conflict with what Jesus and Paul taught. But James is actually in agreement with Jesus and Paul. How can this be so?

Good works that will result in salvation was being taught by the Pharisees in Ephesus. Paul was responding to this teaching saying this is not so; that salvation is the work of God. James, however, is writing to converted Jews. He is telling them genuine faith always produces good works. Salvation justifies us before God. Good works justify us before man. James has already shown in 1:18, no one can be saved by good works.

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
BEGET', pret. begot, begat pp. begot, begotten - To procreate, as a father or sire to generate as, to beget a son

James says we are saved (born again ) by the will of God through the word of truth (Jesus). We are God's work; not our work, God's work. So James is not contradicting himself in vs 2:24. Because we are God's work. Our works are not necessary for salvation. But they are the sign of a living faith working within us. vs 2:17
In verse 22, he used the Greek word "eteleiōthē" (try saying that fast) to explain good works as the "completion," or the end result, of a living faith.

James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
wrought - verb; archaic past and past participle of work.
adjective: wrought - (of metals) beaten out or shaped by hammering.

James is still writing about God's works here, "his work." "And by works" (The pronoun "his" has not changed. So James is still writing about God's works.) was faith made perfect. This has to be God's works. Because our works, without God's works, are as filthy rags (unworthy). Isa. 64:6 James has been consistent in upholding faith as necessary for salvation.

Further, we are given the example of Abraham in verse 23.

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
impute - past tense: imputed
represent (something, especially something undesirable) as being done, caused, or possessed by someone

Abraham was considered righteous for believing God. James gives no other reason. Abraham exhibited his belief by being obedient to God. If you remember, as Abraham is taking Isaac to the place of sacrifice, Isaac asks Abraham where the sacrificial lamb was. Abraham responded:

Genesis 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

Obedience and trust are two of the works of salvation (faith) Abraham was exhibiting. He was living his faith. God had promised him earlier that He would make Abraham the father of many nations. Now God tells Abraham to sacrifice his only son. (Kinda hard to be the father of many nations without any offspring.) Only faith in God can produce this kind of trust and obedience. Abraham's faith was exhibited by his actions (works).

So in James 2:24, after using Abraham as the example, he tells us man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

If you are a believer, you should not have to tell me that you are. I should be able to see God's works in you through how you live your life. There is no such thing as a genuine faith that is "works-less." James is not claiming works are required for salvation. He is saying that a person's works prove their salvation.

Think about the parable of the talents. Mat 25:14-30 The last servant buried his talent instead of using it to earn more for his master. If the talent represents faith, then the burying of it is the equivalent of faith not being used. The other two servants used their master's talents and produced increased value. To the servant who did not use (do the works of faith) his talent; he was thrown into outer darkness.
Why?
He was not acting as a servant. The talent given (faith) was buried (hidden), and not being used (good works) to benefit the master. Therefore he was not a servant.

James did not proclaim that works are required for salvation. James is writing that a "faith" that has no works associated with it, is not a real faith. If there is no trust, no obedience, no repentance, no evidence of a changed life, there is also no faith. Because true faith is life-changing.

So James is not in disagreement with Jesus or Paul. Neither Jesus, nor Paul, nor James lied.
John 3:16 - belief in Jesus is all that is necessary for salvation.
Ephesians 2:8-10 - we are saved by grace through faith from God unto good works.
James 2:24 - works justify our faith as being genuine.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

Jn 3:16 requires belief but baptism is part of the Christian faith

And you must continue to believe until death Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13

 

[donadams]

Hi Josef

I'm confident that we are only saved by faith. I'm also confident that those who will be saved do the good works that God has prepared for us to do. So salvation does not come from works, but works come from salvation. I believe this is what James is saying when he tells us that without works our faith is dead.

God bless,
Ted

Not scripture

Romans 3:24
Being justified freely by his gracethrough the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

 

[GodsGrace]

Faith is not something new that was introduced by Jesus.
Hebrews 11 -actions by Faith that testify to their faith in God

Action that testify to their faith in Jesus.
Luke 5
Just then some men came, carrying a paralyzed man on a bed. They were trying to bring him in and lay him before Jesus; 19 but finding no way to bring him in because of the crowd, they went up on the roof and let him down with his bed through the tiles into the middle of the crowd in front of Jesus. 20 When he saw their faith, he said, ‘Friend, your sins are forgiven you.’
I don't see any works but the one asking, feared God, and believed in "Jesus's" Kingdom and received a judgment that was in his favor. The other asking something of Him in sarcasm, "If you are the Son of God get us off this cross", didn't receive a reply at all in his unbelief.
Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Likewise the Apostles by faith left everything and suffered for their testimony of Jesus even though the Jewish authorities forbid them from speaking anymore about Jesus. By faith they obeyed GOD who had sent Jesus into the world.

The LORD delights in those who fear him, who put their hope in his unfailing love.

Lift up your eyes to the heavens, look at the earth beneath; the heavens will vanish like smoke, the earth will wear out like a garment and its inhabitants die like flies. But my salvation will last forever, my righteousness will never fail.
Jesus to Paul
to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me

Faith saves us.
Then our service in God's Kingdom begins.
Everyone in God's Kingdom has their work cut out for them.
Ephesians 2:8.....

 

[donadams]

Faith is not something new that was introduced by Jesus.
Hebrews 11 -actions by Faith that testify to their faith in God

Action that testify to their faith in Jesus.
Luke 5
Just then some men came, carrying a paralyzed man on a bed. They were trying to bring him in and lay him before Jesus; 19 but finding no way to bring him in because of the crowd, they went up on the roof and let him down with his bed through the tiles into the middle of the crowd in front of Jesus. 20 When he saw their faith, he said, ‘Friend, your sins are forgiven you.’
I don't see any works but the one asking, feared God, and believed in "Jesus's" Kingdom and received a judgment that was in his favor. The other asking something of Him in sarcasm, "If you are the Son of God get us off this cross", didn't receive a reply at all in his unbelief.
Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Likewise the Apostles by faith left everything and suffered for their testimony of Jesus even though the Jewish authorities forbid them from speaking anymore about Jesus. By faith they obeyed GOD who had sent Jesus into the world.

The LORD delights in those who fear him, who put their hope in his unfailing love.

Lift up your eyes to the heavens, look at the earth beneath; the heavens will vanish like smoke, the earth will wear out like a garment and its inhabitants die like flies. But my salvation will last forever, my righteousness will never fail.
Jesus to Paul
to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me

Where is faith mentioned here

Matt 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

There is no blessed are the faithful!
Or those who have faith alone!

Deut. 6:4 you shall love the Lord your God

Luke 7:47
Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for sheloved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

1 Peter 4:8
And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charityshall cover the multitude of sins.

 

[donadams]

“Faith alone” Questions

where does ez 36: 25:27 Say “faith alone”?

where does scripture says we have died with Christ by “faith alone”?

Where does it say we are sealed by faith alone?

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

where does scripture say we are members of Christ and his church by “faith alone”?

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

where does scripture says we put on Christ by “faith alone”?

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Where does scripture say our sins are washed away by “faith alone”?

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

where does scripture say we are saved or justified by “faith alone”?

1 pet 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!

The only reference in scripture to “faith alone” is James 2:24 NOT BY “FAITH ALONE”?

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

How can you enter by your own if it must be ministered to you? Baptism is done unto you, “not do it yourself by faith alone”

Ministered by the apostolic church!

2 Corinthians 8:19
And not that only, but who was also chosen of the churches to travel with us with this grace, which is administered by us to the glory of the same Lord, and declaration of your ready mind:

Jn 3:5 born again by faith alone?

Where is “Accept Christ as your personal lord & savior” is found in scripture?

They did not go preaching this line but went immediately to the river and baptized Jn 3:22

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Eph 4:5 one baptism

Why don’t it say one teeny tiny little act of “faith alone”???

When we first believed we are saved?

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

How can salvation be nearer than when we first believed if you’re saved by believing?

1 pet 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.

How can salvation happen when we first believed if it’s the end?

If salvation is by “faith alone” then faith would be the greatest!
1 cor 13:13 charity is the greatest!

Even all faith much less “faith alone” without charity avails nothing!
1 cor 13:2

The early Catholic Church fathers say faith and baptism!

Eph 5:24 the church is subject to Christ and has always taught and practiced “baptismal regeneration” and never “faith alone” if anyone says we are justified by “faith alone” let them be anathema! (condemned)

Matt 28:19 disciples by faith and baptism


Lk 8
The parable of the sower, all four had faith are they all not saved?


Lk 23:39 did not the bad thief say; save us? “Faith alone”?

Lk 18:14
Why did the publican not mention Jesus Christ or make a profession of belief, but prayer and virtue!

Why must we also suffer?
Faith alone not enough”?

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and I joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Phil 1:29 not called to believe alone but also to suffer for Christ’s sake.

Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Matt 24:13 endures “in Christ” to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Where does it say “faith alone”?

“Faith alone” ain’t biblical!

 

[donadams]

Faith saves us.
Then our service in God's Kingdom begins.
Everyone in God's Kingdom has their work cut out for them.
Ephesians 2:8.....

If we’re really saved why bother?
Why pray and watch to not enter into temptation
Why be fearful of when the master comes etc?

 

[Randy]

My hope is in God not my works.

Faith saves us.
Then our service in God's Kingdom begins.
Everyone in God's Kingdom has their work cut out for them.
Ephesians 2:8.....

I think this sums it up for me.
My hope is in God's unfailing love and faithfulness expressed through Jesus Christ my Lord not my works.

 

[Randy]

Where is faith mentioned here

Matt 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

There is no blessed are the faithful!
Or those who have faith alone!

Deut. 6:4 you shall love the Lord your God

Luke 7:47
Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for sheloved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

1 Peter 4:8
And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charityshall cover the multitude of sins.

Where is Jesus mentioned there? Is He not how God chose to forgive sin?
Col 1:20

 

[GodsGrace]

If we’re really saved why bother?
Why pray and watch to not enter into temptation
Why be fearful of when the master comes etc?

Don
We're not supposed to sin ESPECIALLY after we're saved.

We're fearful of the master because of not being saved.

If we're saved there is no fear in us because love casts out all fear.

Why are you adverse to a person being secure in the Lord?

What kind of Catholic are you anyway?

 

[Randy]

“Faith alone” Questions

where does ez 36: 25:27 Say “faith alone”?

where does scripture says we have died with Christ by “faith alone”?

Where does it say we are sealed by faith alone?

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

where does scripture say we are members of Christ and his church by “faith alone”?

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

where does scripture says we put on Christ by “faith alone”?

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Where does scripture say our sins are washed away by “faith alone”?

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

where does scripture say we are saved or justified by “faith alone”?

1 pet 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!

The only reference in scripture to “faith alone” is James 2:24 NOT BY “FAITH ALONE”?

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

How can you enter by your own if it must be ministered to you? Baptism is done unto you, “not do it yourself by faith alone”

Ministered by the apostolic church!

2 Corinthians 8:19
And not that only, but who was also chosen of the churches to travel with us with this grace, which is administered by us to the glory of the same Lord, and declaration of your ready mind:

Jn 3:5 born again by faith alone?

Where is “Accept Christ as your personal lord & savior” is found in scripture?

They did not go preaching this line but went immediately to the river and baptized Jn 3:22

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Eph 4:5 one baptism

Why don’t it say one teeny tiny little act of “faith alone”???

When we first believed we are saved?

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

How can salvation be nearer than when we first believed if you’re saved by believing?

1 pet 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.

How can salvation happen when we first believed if it’s the end?

If salvation is by “faith alone” then faith would be the greatest!
1 cor 13:13 charity is the greatest!

Even all faith much less “faith alone” without charity avails nothing!
1 cor 13:2

The early Catholic Church fathers say faith and baptism!

Eph 5:24 the church is subject to Christ and has always taught and practiced “baptismal regeneration” and never “faith alone” if anyone says we are justified by “faith alone” let them be anathema! (condemned)

Matt 28:19 disciples by faith and baptism


Lk 8
The parable of the sower, all four had faith are they all not saved?


Lk 23:39 did not the bad thief say; save us? “Faith alone”?

Lk 18:14
Why did the publican not mention Jesus Christ or make a profession of belief, but prayer and virtue!

Why must we also suffer?
Faith alone not enough”?

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and I joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Phil 1:29 not called to believe alone but also to suffer for Christ’s sake.

Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Matt 24:13 endures “in Christ” to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Where does it say “faith alone”?

“Faith alone” ain’t biblical!

Its "Faith" that is the key not the works. As in "lives by believing in Him"
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

27“Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”


Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

They lowered this man through a hole they made in the roof in front of Jesus. I don't know what the owner of that house thought by I do know what Jesus saw and His Judgment by His own authority.

When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.

Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” 19Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah’s womb was also dead. 20Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” 23The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

We are not free to sin. Repentance was called for and love is the fulfillment of all the law but what can man do that God should have to repay him? Its grace through faith in Christ Jesus. And God gives us the Holy Spirit to help us overcome the weakness of the flesh in putting down the misdeeds of the body. He who is in us is greater than the one in this world. So God is active in the believer in their walk with Christ. Which is still grace. As Jesus stated everyone who sins is a slave unless the Son sets them free.

 

[donadams]

My hope is in God not my works.

I think this sums it up for me.
My hope is in God's unfailing love and faithfulness expressed through Jesus Christ my Lord not my works.

Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

 

[donadams]

Its "Faith" that is the key not the works. As in "lives by believing in Him"
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

27“Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”


Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

They lowered this man through a hole they made in the roof in front of Jesus. I don't know what the owner of that house thought by I do know what Jesus saw and His Judgment by His own authority.

When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.

Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” 19Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah’s womb was also dead. 20Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” 23The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

We are not free to sin. Repentance was called for and love is the fulfillment of all the law but what can man do that God should have to repay him? Its grace through faith in Christ Jesus. And God gives us the Holy Spirit to help us overcome the weakness of the flesh in putting down the misdeeds of the body. He who is in us is greater than the one in this world. So God is active in the believer in their walk with Christ. Which is still grace. As Jesus stated everyone who sins is a slave unless the Son sets them free.

Yes faith is required but where does it say “faith alone”?

1 cor 13:2?
1 cor 13:13?
Phil 1:29?
James 2:24?

 

[donadams]

Don
We're not supposed to sin ESPECIALLY after we're saved.

We're fearful of the master because of not being saved.

If we're saved there is no fear in us because love casts out all fear.

Why are you adverse to a person being secure in the Lord?

What kind of Catholic are you anyway?

Secure in the Lord and grace but only if we are faithful and endure to the end Matt 24:13

 

[Butch5]

Hey All,
I found this, and wanted to show how taking a verse out of context distorts the meaning of the verse. This was used to promote a faith through works agenda that some cults hold to.

Jesus says: 'Do your first Works!' Rev 2:5
Today they say: 'It's not of Works'

They have taken a portion of a verse to make it look like Scripture agrees with their point of view. Here is the full verse:

Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

(I love King James version for the old style words, so melodic, so serene. "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent." Today's language, imagined by me as a drill sargent, "Suck it up cupcake. Get back in the fight." Sorry for the tangent. I find humor in the strangest places.)

Back to what I was showing you:

The whole verse is quite different than what is being used above, wouldn't you say? This is Jesus' warning to the church at Ephesus. They were a good church. But they had left their first love. What does that mean? They were no longer Christ centered. They were meeting in Christ's name, but not doing the prayer, praise, worship, and teaching (the works or actions of salvation) like they had earlier.

Jesus is telling them in verse five remember who you are and where you came from. "Repent and 'do the first works'; or else."Jesus is talking to backslidden believers here. Repentance always comes before works. Do you know why?

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Your works can only be righteous if you are righteous. Jesus has to be in you before you can be righteous. (I know! Makes total sense. Mind blown!?)

That is why faith through works can't work.
They are not works because there is no righteousness in them.

Misrepresenting Jesus' words to mean the opposite of what He said, as was done in my opening example, is the exact opposite of a good idea. Revelation 22:18-19 I would not want to be these guys.

The "or else" statement in the second half of the verse should worry backslidden Christians. The Ephesians were what we would consider backslidden. They said the words of repentance, maybe were baptized, maybe even performed works, but have reverted to their old ways.

" . . . I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."

A candlestick that doesn't produce light is useless. A believer that doesn't produce light, (a continued state of being backslidden) may be in jeopardy of being removed. Just what place Jesus is referring to? I don't want to find out.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

I agree with your access mentioned of the passage in Revelation. However as those you're accusing you've taken the passage in Isaiah out if context. Isaiah is pleading with God over Israel. When he says, 'Our righteousness is as filthy rags' he's referring to Israel, not mankind.

We find in Scripture that Abraham was declared righteous by God and he didn't have Jesus in him.

 

[GodsGrace]

Secure in the Lord and grace but only if we are faithful and endure to the end Matt 24:13

Agreed.
You should Express this in your posts.
I feel that the CC is very much misunderstood by the Protestant world.
I just would love to see more understanding between us.
Fra' Lorenzo, a monk I studied with and respect said,,,,,we can know we are saved, at the foot of the cross.