Faith or Works?

[Josef]

Hey All,
I mentioned there was something needed in-between Belief in Jesus, and good works. Here is what I was was referring to.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

doctrine - belief or set of beliefs
reproof - expression of blame or disapproval.
correction - a change that rectifies an error or inaccuracy
furnish - adjective of furnish - supply someone with (something); give (something) to someone; be a source of; provide


We as new believers needed to learn before we could do. Through understanding doctrine ( Biblical truths), reproof (why we were lost in sin), for correction (what God did for us), for instruction in righteousness (that we grow in our faith): These benefits of reading/knowing the Word, both perfect us (complete us), and furnish us (give us the gift of the Holy Spirit, and then equip us with the gift of the Spirit), unto (future tense, so we know performance is after the perfection and the furnishing) all good works.

So what is necessary before good works?
1. Understanding Biblical truth(s)
2. Why we were lost
3. What God did for us
4. That we grow in our faith
5. That we are complete
6. The gift if the Holy Spirit

Paul says after we understand what has happened to us and why. Then when we have spiritually grown, and are complete, the Holy Spirit will supply or give us good works that ee can do to be a productive member of God's kingdom.
Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Randy]

By their fruit they will be recognized....
OK, this I can agree with.
It's what the NT teaches.



What's so wrong if some righteousness is credited to me?

Its points to a righteousness by what you do
Same principle
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

What does righteousness mean to you?

Can you achieve this outcome?
But now he has reconciled you by his physical body through death, to present you before God as a people who are holy, faultless, and without blame

It only means being right with God.
If I follow Jesus and follow His teachings, I will be righteous.

That's proof of a genuine faith not just lip service but your righteousness was credited to you from first to last by your faith.

Proverbs 21:21
21He who pursues righteousness and loyalty
Finds life, righteousness and honor.
1 Timothy 6:11
11But flee from these things, you man of God, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance and gentleness.
Psalm 112:6
6For he will never be shaken;
The righteous will be remembered forever.

James 3:18
18And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.


It's OK to be righteous. This is what God wants from you. To be right with God.


But this is the problem as I see it Randy...the way you speak makes it sound as if it's OK to do anything becaus
se God expects nothing from us because we're "saved".

I live like a believer. I'm not free to sin. But I don't light my own fires as I submit to Gods righteousness. A righteousness revealed by God that is from first to last by faith in Christ Jesus.
I believe in a resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous so as one who fears God I keep a clear conscience before God but that's not what made/makes me clean. It keeps me in Christ's love.

We ARE sanctified by the deeds we do.
What do these words mean to you?
Righteous
Sanctified

What does sanctified mean?

What do you think He meant?
to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

Doesn't it mean to be set aside for service to God?

Then we have to ask,,,,what service would that be?



Agreed. Romans 1:19....
Righteousness is never achieved by works alone without faith.
Or by faith alone without works.

His theology
For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith." since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

If we read Ephesians 2:8.... we find that everything is a gift from God: Salvation, grace and faith.
You're right that both man and God are involved....alone we can do nothing.
And is faith a choice?
Yes. It's a choice we make to DESIRE faith.

Perhaps the seeking is but who is stirring that pot?

And God gives it to us because He is a good father and will not give a stone when bread is required.

Yes my hope is His unfailing love not me.

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
I mentioned there was something needed in-between Belief in Jesus, and good works. Here is what I was was referring to.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

doctrine - belief or set of beliefs
reproof - expression of blame or disapproval.
correction - a change that rectifies an error or inaccuracy
furnish - adjective of furnish - supply someone with (something); give (something) to someone; be a source of; provide


We as new believers needed to learn before we could do. Through understanding doctrine ( Biblical truths), reproof (why we were lost in sin), for correction (what God did for us), for instruction in righteousness (that we grow in our faith): These benefits of reading/knowing the Word, both perfect us (complete us), and furnish us (give us the gift of the Holy Spirit, and then equip us with the gift of the Spirit), unto (future tense, so we know performance is after the perfection and the furnishing) all good works.

So what is necessary before good works?
1. Understanding Biblical truth(s)
2. Why we were lost
3. What God did for us
4. That we grow in our faith
5. That we are complete
6. The gift if the Holy Spirit

Paul says after we understand what has happened to us and why. Then when we have spiritually grown, and are complete, the Holy Spirit will supply or give us good works that ee can do to be a productive member of God's kingdom.
Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

Hey All,
You fixed it! Thank you to whoever did it.
Taz

 

[GodsGrace]

Hey All,
You fixed it! Thank you to whoever did it.
Taz

If you run into trouble, you could REPORT the post and ask for help. I just happened to be reading through.

 

[Randy]

I hope you all understand there is nothing you can do of yourselves to make yourself "clean before God".
You were sanctified through your faith in Christ with the washing of rebirth by the Spirit of God and your sins are forgiven, You are Holy and blameless and seen without fault as Jesus presents you to the Father.

You simply need to abstain from the things that make you unclean as in remain clean.

This heart condition, below, is unlikely in one born of the Spirit but it seems the newly minted in this new faith Paul preached in that day with many false Gods and unrestrained sin needed to be reminded and warned over and over against turning back to that which they once used to do. The jews who believed had a much better foundation.

“Are you still so dull?” Jesus asked them. 17“Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20These are what defile a person; but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them.”

You have been freed from being a slave to sin. Serving God in the new way of the Spirit and overcoming the weakness of the flesh by the Spirit given, Christ in us, that you may live a Godly life before God while you are still in the weakness of the flesh.

You have been given everything you need for this new life. Through the knowledge of the truth of God and by His Spirit.
His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.

As in knowing Father and Son -The message of the Gospels
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

The inward circumcision on the hearts of the people by the Spirit sent in Jesus's name. The Spirit of Christ. A new covenant was revealed in this last days which speaks of a righteousness that is from first to last by faith. (As in being CLEAN) Sanctified. Many in Israel refused to submit to this righteousness by Faith that was revealed by Christ and chose observance the written code (law) for their salvation (cleanliness/sanctification) before God though the truth of the matter which Jesus noted is they gave God lip service but their hearts were far from God. Outward appearance of clean, but inward full of dead bones.

“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”

And in regard to remaining clean -love is shown as a fulfillment of all the law. Again remaining clean not works to make you clean. In this context it would be testifying of your genuine faith not just by what you state with your mouth but by what you do showing yourself to be disciples of Jesus. The children of God. A kingdom of priests. Let your light shine in this dark world that does not know God as a witness that it would bring glory to God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery; you shall not murder; you shall not steal; you shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore, love is the fulfilling of the law.

So faith in regard to being clean before God not works.

 

[GodsGrace]

Its points to a righteousness by what you do
Same principle
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

Randy, I dislike "debating" with persons who are living a Christian life -- such as you.
I have run across those on these forums that state that they can do whatever they want to and still be saved.
You're clearly not one of those.

This is the reason why I think it's important to make it clear that we are asked to do good deeds in the Kingdom of God here on earth.
We do belong to the Kingdom that Jesus set up for believers, and we are expected to be good members of it.

Can you achieve this outcome?
But now he has reconciled you by his physical body through death, to present you before God as a people who are holy, faultless, and without blame

Jesus has reconciled us to God, from Whom we were estranged.
But it's necessary to keep from becoming estranged again:

Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

1 John 2:3-4
And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

2 Timothy 2:11-12
The saying is trustworthy, for: If we have died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;

Colossians 1:21-23
And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard,

That's proof of a genuine faith not just lip service but your righteousness was credited to you from first to last by your faith.

I live like a believer. I'm not free to sin. But I don't light my own fires as I submit to Gods righteousness. A righteousness revealed by God that is from first to last by faith in Christ Jesus.

Agreed, but it's not FAITH ALONE.
Faith must be accompanied by good deeds or it is useless.
James 2:17
17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

I believe in a resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous so as one who fears God I keep a clear conscience before God but that's not what made/makes me clean. It keeps me in Christ's love.

A clear conscience keeps you clean before God.

Acts 24:16
So I always take pains to have a clear conscience toward both God and man.

1 Timothy 1:18-19
18Timothy, my son, I am giving you this command in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by recalling them you may fight the battle well, 19holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith.

This is my problem Randy,
In going through scripture, I can't find where it says to just relax and Jesus will take care of everything...
what I find instead are directions...

How are the above NOT directions in your opinion?

 

[Randy]

Randy, I dislike "debating" with persons who are living a Christian life -- such as you.
I have run across those on these forums that state that they can do whatever they want to and still be saved.
You're clearly not one of those.

This is the reason why I think it's important to make it clear that we are asked to do good deeds in the Kingdom of God here on earth.
We do belong to the Kingdom that Jesus set up for believers, and we are expected to be good members of it.


Jesus has reconciled us to God, from Whom we were estranged.
But it's necessary to keep from becoming estranged again:

Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

1 John 2:3-4
And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

2 Timothy 2:11-12
The saying is trustworthy, for: If we have died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;

Colossians 1:21-23
And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard,



Agreed, but it's not FAITH ALONE.
Faith must be accompanied by good deeds or it is useless.
James 2:17
17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.


A clear conscience keeps you clean before God.

Acts 24:16
So I always take pains to have a clear conscience toward both God and man.

1 Timothy 1:18-19
18Timothy, my son, I am giving you this command in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by recalling them you may fight the battle well, 19holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith.

This is my problem Randy,
In going through scripture, I can't find where it says to just relax and Jesus will take care of everything...
what I find instead are directions...

How are the above NOT directions in your opinion?

If you are in Christ you are already "clean". You simply need to avoid what makes you unclean. Works added do not make you cleaner. That was done by God.

For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. 20 These are what defile a person.

I do state love fulfils the whole law.
Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,”[a] and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[b] 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

 

[donadams]

“Faith alone”!

How many verses are required to prove a false doctrine?

Mk 16:16 faith & baptism
Jn 3:5 water & the spirit
Jn 15:4 abide in Christ
acts 2:38-39 repentance & baptism
acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
acts 22:16 name of the Lord & baptism
rom 10:10 faith & confession
1 cor 13:2 faith & charity
1 cor 13:13 faith, hope, & charity
1 cor 16:22 love of Jesus Christ
Rom 8:17 faith and suffering
2 Timothy 2:12
1 thes 1:3 faith, love, patience / 2 thes 1:4 / 1 Tim 6:11 /
Col 1:24 suffering for Christ
Philemon 1:5 love and faith
Phil 1:29 called to suffer not faith alone
Titus 2:2 faith, love, patience
James 2:24 faith & works
2 pet 1:5 add to faith
Heb 6:12 faith & patience / rev 13:10
Rev 2:19 works, charity, service, faith, patience
Rev 12:17 testimony of Jesus & commandments
Rev 2:19 & rev 13:10 & Rev 14:12 commandments & patience
Three things are eternal! 1 cor 13:13
Faith, Hope, & Charity!

1 Thessalonians 1:3
Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

1 Timothy 6:11
But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

Hebrews 6:12
That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Revelation 2:19
I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

Never “faith alone”!

Truth must be revealed by Christ Jude 1:3 and taught by the apostolic church!

Christ never revealed and the church never taught the doctrine of “faith alone”!

The holy apostolic church has condemned the doctrine of “faith alone”!

“Faith Alone” is a false doctrine!